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Biosphere
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HuwB
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 11749
Location: Deep in the Black Mountains.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it's complete bollocks, isn't it?
The guys been out of racing for half a decade.
So, CAS start the "ban", from the start of the hearing, but 5 years late.
Then, they come up with some arbitrary annulment, which cancels out his last 18 months of results.
Big joke, two other Fuentes's clients get promoted as a result.
Mancebo Tour podium!
Anyhow, well done the UCI for pursuing this case with such vigour, based mostly upon a paper trail.
Presumably, in the spirit of fair play and similar evidence, Pat will now pitch in with USADA and go all out to get a retrospective ban for Armstrong.  |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| HuwB wrote: | | Presumably, in the spirit of fair play and similar evidence, Pat will now pitch in with USADA and go all out to get a retrospective ban for Armstrong. |
There's a key element to the Ullrich case, though:
"Given the volume, consistency and probative value of the evidence presented by the UCI, and the failure of Jan Ullrich to raise any doubt about the veracity of reliability of such evidence, this Panel came to the conclusion that Jan Ullrich engaged at least in blood doping..."
One could reasonably expect Lance to raise plenty of doubt!
I guess Ullrich is happier drinking beer than spending (drinking) time and (beer) money heading off old doping allegations. And who can blame him? 
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Biosphere
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I liked this quote and the fact that Ullrich didn't seek to obfuscate.
| Quote: | | “The Panel also expressed its surprise that Jan Ullrich did not question the veracity of the evidence or any other substantive aspect of the case, limiting his defence to procedural issues.” |
The hypocrisy of the UCI knows no bounds. Their comment on USADA's statement of intent to pick up where the Feds left off
| Quote: | | "We won't comment on USADA and what they might do. We don't want to keep looking behind us, there's nothing there, and the investigation proved that." |
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HuwB
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 11749
Location: Deep in the Black Mountains.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Biosphere wrote: | I liked this quote and the fact that Ullrich didn't seek to obfuscate.
| Quote: | | “The Panel also expressed its surprise that Jan Ullrich did not question the veracity of the evidence or any other substantive aspect of the case, limiting his defence to procedural issues.” |
The hypocrisy of the UCI knows no bounds. Their comment on USADA's statement of intent to pick up where the Feds left off
| Quote: | | "We won't comment on USADA and what they might do. We don't want to keep looking behind us, there's nothing there, and the investigation proved that." |
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Exactly my point.
Same with retro CERA tests.
As for Lance raising doubts: Yeah, sure, if using twitter to mount a mass smear campaign counts. |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| HuwB wrote: | | As for Lance raising doubts: Yeah, sure, if using twitter to mount a mass smear campaign counts. |
I think it would be a bit more robust than that if anyone goes after him via a paper trail only. He didn't see off the Feds via Twitter comments alone!
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Slapshot 3
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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New rumour that the UCI have decided to sanction Jacques Anquetil and Fausto Coppi for doping infractions.......A Mr McQuaid was quoted as saying " while we always want to look forward and not drag up the past it's important we continue the battle against doping"........
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berck
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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So he is being double penalized. Loosing all results from May 2005 to February 2007, plus banned for two years from August 22, 2011 to August 21, 2013.
The ban seems a bit ridiculous.
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ullrichfan
Joined: 19 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly what I was going to post Berck. How come Contador loses results and these are part of his ban but Ullrich loses his results from over nearly a two-year period and then faces a full two-year ban on top of this? Seems like twice the punishment to me. And is there any point in banning him for the next two years - this just makes Cas look ridiculous. So from praising them over the Contador verdict, I now have to question their decision-making on this issue. There's absolutely no doubt about his guilt, however.
Which leads me on to discussing the criticism aimed at him for not questioning the veracity of the doping claims. Surely, this is to his credit? I rather admire him for this and I suspect he will come clean about everything in the near future. I realise I am blinkered on the subject of Jan, however. |
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Nolte
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 4826
Location: irlande
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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oh, for **** sake.
i offer the following congratulations
- koldo gil for winning the tour of switzerland in 2006, and jorg jaksche and debauched angel, both of liberty seguros for their podium places in the same race. (oddly enough, it was the last race of the year for all  )
- ivan basso for the giro individual time trial win on stage 11.
- francisco mancebo for his podium in the 2005 tour de france.
- bobby jullich for his deutschland tour win
on an unrelated note, there is a standard in irish law, where the evidence of a garda superintendant can be enough to convict a person.
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ullrichfan wrote: | | How come Contador loses results and these are part of his ban but Ullrich loses his results from over nearly a two-year period and then faces a full two-year ban on top of this? |
Speculation here, but maybe it's because Ullrich a) did not admit liability and b) his offence was more serious.
Re a) Berto never disputed the finding; he just went down the route of trying to justify it. Ullrich, as far as I know, didn't actually fess up.
Re b) On face value, blood doping is more serious than a minor clenbuterol violation.
Ergo, CAS needed to make an example of Ullrich as he didn't admit guilt of a more serious offence.
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 11529
Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ullrichfan wrote: | | Exactly what I was going to post Berck. How come Contador loses results and these are part of his ban but Ullrich loses his results from over nearly a two-year period and then faces a full two-year ban on top of this? Seems like twice the punishment to me. |
... and Basso picks up an ITT win in the 2006 Giro!! Oh the irony!!!
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ullrichfan
Joined: 19 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| SlowRower wrote: | | Re b) On face value, blood doping is more serious than a minor clenbuterol violation. |
I would dispute that. And I'm not sure what a minor clenbuterol violation is. There is absolutely no circumstance in which clenbuterol should be in the body - so any violation is serious.
And Ullrich did not question the veracity of the doping allegations - which is, more or less, a confession. He questioned the procedures of the doping investigation. |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| ullrichfan wrote: | | And I'm not sure what a minor clenbuterol violation is. There is absolutely no circumstance in which clenbuterol should be in the body - so any violation is serious. |
Since we can only work with the test results, Berto is guilty of having such a small amount of clenbuterol in his body that labs can still be accredited by WADA even if they can't actually detect such amounts. Also, clenbuterol only aids weight loss to help riders shed "the final 2kg", which on a 70k bike and rider combination is a 3% benefit, much less than the benefit that can be derived from blood-doping. One could describe clenbuterol use as "survival doping", if one considers this concept meaningful.
Hence, my conclusion that Berto's offence is less serious than Ullrich's is reasonable. Of course, we all know that Berto was dabbling in a lot more than minute quantities of clenbuterol, but that's not what he was busted for.
That said, Ullrich does seem to have been harshly treated with a two year ban plus several months of results being "struck off", although banning him now seems a rather pointless move!
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maffy
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| SlowRower wrote: | | although banning him now seems a rather pointless move! |
he'd been having so much fun on a bike in sportives recently, he might have been tempted to try a proper race |
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KarenP
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
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Location: NYC, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| HuwB wrote: | Well, it's complete bollocks, isn't it?
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Yes. He's suspended NOW? WTF???????
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Biosphere
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| maffy wrote: | | SlowRower wrote: | | although banning him now seems a rather pointless move! |
he'd been having so much fun on a bike in sportives recently, he might have been tempted to try a proper race |
Valid point, Maffy. I'm glad that the authorities have their eyes on the ball to head off the menace of middle-aged men with some top quartile sportive finishes to their name thinking they might make it as far as being a "real" cyclist.
Still, Ullrich will be just about 40 when his ban expires, so he'll be ideally placed to dominate in the over 40s "Weekend Warrior" category, where the serious action is these days.
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well I still stand by what I said in 2006. Had Ulle and Basso fought the charges they would have got off scott free. If you think there is little evidence against Bertie (other than a failed drugs test), then there was no evidence against Ulle. So the guy used the advice of a recognised sports doctor (like Schleck), so the doctor took blood to test ... so what. No smoking gun .... Ulle's problem is that he is essentially a simple man (in the best possible sense) and had no appetite to fight. Good on him. The sanction is ridiculous ... especially in the light of Basso and the others recieving a different sanction. Somethig smells yet again, but I'm not sure what it is ...
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MAILLOT JAUNE
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Slapshot 3 wrote: | | New rumour that the UCI have decided to sanction Jacques Anquetil and Fausto Coppi for doping infractions...... |
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