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OLD THREAD FOR REFERENCE: MR 60% and HAMILTON

 
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: OLD THREAD FOR REFERENCE: MR 60% and HAMILTON  Reply with quote

Message 1 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 21, 2006

How can this man even think about coming back in September and who the hell would sign a rider so tainted and corrupt. Is he truely this delusional or is the sport so devoid of morals that he will be signed up and welcomed back into the peleton?

Riis - his second big name rider to be caught up in the affair denies all. Funny how Mr 60%'s most successful riders - Basso and Hamilton, have both been caught and Riis's reponse has been to say 'I had no idea'.

Bjarne a quick question? When you go back to the hotel do you have a large bucket of sand in your hotel room into which you then insert your head?

Does anyone speak Danish and could translate the original article?

Hamilton's "doping diary" from 2003 published

Tyler Hamilton allegedly used doping products, including EPO, growth hormones, testosterone and insulin, on 114 of the approximately 200 days of the 2003 cycling season, the Danish newspaper Politiken reported on Sunday

The newspaper cites the information out of a "doping diary" which was found among the papers of Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes. In 2003, Hamilton finished fourth in the Tour de France, as captain of the Danish CSC Team.

According to the newspaper, the doping activities listed in the diary were so extensive, that a whole team of helpers had to be involved. Bjarne Riis, director of the CSC team, denies knowing anything about it, despite his close and frequent contact with Hamilton. "I would like to remind you that we live in hotels and not in a prison," he is quoted as saying. "When a stage is finished, the riders have their free time. Then they do want they want."

Hamilton's two year ban for blood doping is due to run out in September. He has been training and keeping his condition up, winning the non-sanctioned Mt. Washington Hill Climb race in the USA on Saturday.

www.cyclingnews.com/...


Message 2 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 21, 2006

I must concur on this naspa. There seems to be more and more circumstantial evidence that points to Bjarne Riis with the passing of each "scandal" or "affair".

Let me pose the question that hitherto had been unthinkable - should the UCI/WADA and Danish police investigate the actions of Bjarne Riis to better determine what has gone on? Can the Danish police be involved?

And, I know some on this board have been more sceptical of Riis than others, but such criticisms have largely flown under the radar in the mainstream cycling media.

Being quick to judgement, I believe, is the bane of today's society - a society that has become so jaded and cynical. But, I must also be realistic in seeing a growing body of evidence linking Riis to these types of activities. In order to save the sport, should cycling and WADA begin a more direct probe or investigation into those activities?

Unfortunately, I have to be on the road for work today as I would love to get into this a little more!


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Message 3 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 21, 2006

I have to agree too! Like the bucket of sand comment!!

It doesn't seem plausible that a DS could have a star rider compete and train with him and for him to have NO idea whatsoever that something untoward was going on! It's just unimaginable.

On another tack - Hamilton's obviously well and trully caught up in the whole Puerto investigation. How do they go about opening disciplinary procedures against him? Do they have to wait for him to re-apply for a licence or can he be banned now like it would seem Ullrich and basso are going to be?
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Message 4 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 21, 2006

I struggle to believe this idea that 'we never knew what was going on' that has come out of both CSC and T-Mob.

Riis makes it sound as if the CSC team had an open door policy and anyone could wander in and chat to Hamilton. He never noticed all those people going in and out of his hotel room.

Lots of people have drawn inferences from the fact that Hamilton, Heras and Landis all rode for USP. I think we should start drawing inferences from Riis's reputation and the CSC riders caught up.

Maybe this explains how Basso came to end up under Fuentes - Riis had been tipped off by Hamilton who advised Basso...
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Message 5 - posted by tommie81 (U1654932) , Aug 21, 2006

On the one hand ten years is a long time in sport. On the other I'm not sure it is. With Bjarne Riis having won the TdF on mineral water alone in 1996, I can't imagine that he doesn't have any contacts in cycling. I'm sure he knows one hell of a lot about whats been going on in his team, if not encouraged him. But then there are more teams like that, would need to think who, what and where, but one that springs to mind:

Rabobank with Breukink and Zoetemelk. They're also keeping the team leadership in the family with Dekker and lining up Boogerd.




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Message 6 - posted by pantanifan (U1668940) , Aug 21, 2006

The problem with this kind of debate - throwing names around who people may or may not find suspicious is that you can't actually prove anything on Riis (or any other DS for that matter, or on Vino as stated in your other thread). I think it is likely to be the exception rather than the rule for a DS not to know about his team leader's doping, but then it also opens up another can of worms - how far can you trust those riders who have long been teammates of "implicated" riders - Sastre/Schleck at CSC, Kloeden at T-Mobile, Merckx at Phonak. Would you stop Eddy Merckx from having any participation in pro cycling because he once failed a doping control?
As I said on another thread earlier I think we should be careful about how far we take this or it could just turn into a witch-hunt, it may well be that "almost everyone" has been involved, but even if that is the case you still have to prove it first...
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Message 7 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , Aug 21, 2006

Post Puerto I cannot see any protour team taking Hamilton on, they'd be just crazy to do it. Thats assuming he doesn't get another ban which I hope he does if this info is correct. If he ends up anywhere my money would be on one of the US teams (not discovery though).
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Message 8 - posted by Zyclist (U2392870) , Aug 21, 2006

He's a scalawag; I read his latest net journal entry for June 20 at www.tylerhamilton.com ; and how he says he does not even know this doctor.

I read a letters to the editor for one of the magazines, after implicated in Operacion Puerto; even some diehard defenders said they lost all faith in TH.

And again, when He won his Athens gold, he seems to have a smug look, on the other hand, thought to be clean Julich with those big sad dog eyes of his, always seems to look rather humble.

It's hearsay, but one letter writer too, stated that even upon sending in a sizeable amount to TH's charitable MS foundation; they did not receive a thank you note. This I would ponder on, since, at the very least, they would need to receive a receipt for tax reasons.
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Message 9 - posted by tommie81 (U1654932) , Aug 21, 2006

"If he ends up anywhere my money would be on one of the US teams (not discovery though)."

Erm, Disco is the only US team in the Pro Tour....

Or did you mean he might go to one of the US teams outside of the Pro Tour? (Though I don't see that happening as the level of competition will be very low for him)
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Message 10 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 21, 2006

I think that there it may be valid to differentiate between riders who hold up their hands & appear to have some contrition (Millar) & others who produce all sorts of arguments as to why it couldn't possibly have been them, in the face of overwhelming evidence (Hamilton)- I am reasonably happy (?) with Millar getting back into the peleton, but would feel much less so about Hamilton....

... although I am aware that this has the potential to penalise a genuinely wrongly accused individual, who seeks to profess his/her innocence... I guess we can all say "we know who we mean", but framing a regulation around it would be a nightmare... ah well, just a thought!
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Message 11 - posted by JamesOwen81 (U5185836) , Aug 21, 2006

"Or did you mean he might go to one of the US teams outside of the Pro Tour? (Though I don't see that happening as the level of competition will be very low for him)"

Of course he is what, 33 already? And no longer on the juice. If he does return to the Pro-Tour there might at least be satisfaction in watching him fall behind at every climb.

Riis, let's be entirely honest, who in '96 didn't think he was using drugs?

Cycling is in a mess and I don't expect to see it clean up anytime soon. Team hierarchies are built around drugs cheats.

I see it all a little bit like pre-war Iraq. Sure the bad guys are running everything, but if we invade the teams and string up all of the guilty, whose going to run the place?

Beats me what the answer is.
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Message 12 - posted by Nuvolari1 (U1731570) , Aug 21, 2006

naspa, I am sorry but to answer your first question. Hamilton can think about coming back because there are people who are willing to sign him. This is it pure and simple. It doesn’t matter in the eyes of many directors how much you doped in the past if you can still deliver the wins. Unfortunately, this is what’s wrong with professional cycling. It is still cleaner than other sports, but if we want CLEAN cycling, proven doper has be under more and more scrutiny.
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Message 13 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , Aug 21, 2006

"Erm, Disco is the only US team in the Pro Tour....

Or did you mean he might go to one of the US teams outside of the Pro Tour? (Though I don't see that happening as the level of competition will be very low for him)"


Thats what I meant which is why I said I can't see a protour team signing him up. His likely options will be a non protour team in either Europe or the US. For the bigger non protour euro teams like Unibet, they harbour ambitions to be part of the protour so I can't see them wanting him either. Which really only leaves the smaller European teams or those in the US.
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Message 14 - posted by Ste__S (U5307215) , Aug 21, 2006

With Phonak not being looked in to, the likelihood of CSC/Riis being investigated is close to zero.

The "I didn't know what he was doing" excuse should be eliminated from pro-cycling. DS's should be made accountable for their riders actions and operate a zero tolerance policy a la Bouyges Telecom
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Message 15 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 21, 2006

.. and following on from my thoughts in message 10.... perhaps the period of suspension could start from the day that the rider accepts his/her guilt? Be a long time before we see Hamilton if that were the case...
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Message 16 - posted by George809 (U2883985) , Aug 21, 2006

I really don't believe much of what Riis says - he wasn't called Mr 60% for nothing.

As for Hamilton - his main tactic of proving his innocence seems to have been a war of attrition, which essentially proves his guilt as he's come up with nothing remotely believable.
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Message 17 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Aug 21, 2006

as we all know TH is serving a ban right now because he was caught doping. it seems to me the puerto documents only confirm his unethical behavior for which he was banned; so i am not sure why - even if the reports indicate TH drank EPO like water - he could be banned further.

i am not suggesting TH should not be further sanctioned, nor as an american am i "pro-TH."

i am far from informed enough on the official documents. but it does make me wonder. if nothing else, i wonder if these men do not know better than to document their crimes?
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Message 18 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 21, 2006

But isn't this part of his arrogance?

He thinks he can get away with it.

David Millar kept the syringes...
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Message 19 - posted by caribou_37 (U4989652) , Aug 21, 2006

I think it was probably Fuentes that kept the document, he would need to have something to be sure Hamilton was on the right stuff at the right time.

Makes you wonder why only Hamiltons has appeared though, did Fuentes have the same documents for other riders?
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Message 20 - posted by morstar (U2411712) , Aug 21, 2006

"I see it all a little bit like pre-war Iraq."

I SOOOO wondered where you were going with that!

Turns out its the best analogy of the situation yet.

I now have a vision of Bjarne Riis in a palatial hotel with gold taps
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naspa



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 21 - posted by pantanifan (U1668940) , Aug 21, 2006

"The "I didn't know what he was doing" excuse should be eliminated from pro-cycling. DS's should be made accountable for their riders actions and operate a zero tolerance policy a la Bouyges Telecom"

Good point - couldn't the teams be forced to check on the doctors their riders are turning to for help/advice - only team (or UCI) sanctioned doctors allowed?
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Message 22 - posted by TheInvigilator (U4743667) , Aug 21, 2006

I don't think it was arrogance that made Millar keep the syringes. He's a funny lad, our Millar - not your average bloke. I think the motivation was altogether more complicated - suggesting his own struggle with what he had done. Think of the Cofidis presentation that winter before he was rumbled. He already knew that it was highly likely he would be reeled in - he looked confused and ashamed, even guilty. Compare that to the blase demeanour of many of the more hardened "users" - better not name names, but think of some of the biggies.
And as for Riis - yes, I share everyone else's suspicions.
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Message 23 - posted by Zyclist (U2392870) , Aug 21, 2006

I'm dissapointed in Riis, I think he could have been the first winner of the TdF to have used a recumbent.
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Message 24 - posted by pantanifan (U1668940) , Aug 22, 2006

Looks like Bjarne is starting to worry about his image:

source: www.cyclingnews.com/...


Riis pessimistic over Basso future

For the first time in the Spanish doping scandal, Team CSC manager Bjarne Riis has declared that he is not sure about Ivan Basso being able to continue his career within Team CSC. "I have difficulties seeing a future for Basso with CSC unless he is totally cleared," Riis told Danish Politiken on Monday. "If Basso was in contact with the doctor [Fuentes - ed.], he lied to us, and betrayed the team and the values we hold dear - then his career with CSC would be over."

Moreover, the 1996 Tour de France winner Riis saw his image affected by the recent revelations about Basso. "I feel really bad about this case. Basso is the worst that could happen to me - it has ruined my image. I need to fix that and right now it's a tough job," he declared.
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Message 25 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

Maybe Riis was this thread???

Funny how Riis's concern is not with doping but with his image.

More on Hamilton as well.

Extensive doping alleged for Hamilton

One day after the initial report by Danish Politiken, Belgian newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws has published details of the alleged "doping diary" of Tyler Hamilton, found among the papers of Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.

According to the Belgian media, Hamilton's doping practices in 2003, when he won both Liège-Bastogne-Liège and the Tour de Romandie as well as a stage in the Tour de France despite a collarbone fracture, were extensive and cost him a total of 43,040 Euros.

The paper cites information according to which the then-CSC rider used EPO 30 times between December 2002 and February 2003, as well as anabolic steroids. In the beginning of March 2003, Hamilton allegedly used a pregnancy hormone to cover up the traces of the cure. Two blood transfusions are reported to have been administered to his body two days prior to Paris-Nice, where Hamilton won the mountains jersey.

In April, the American is thought to have used growth hormone and insulin to promote muscle growth. After the Tour de Romandie, the paper claims to have evidence that he transfused three bags of blood (a total of 1.35 litres), returned to normal blood levels with the help of EPO, and re-injected two bags of blood six days before the start of the Dauphiné Libéré.

Another growth hormone cure came after the race according to the media, as well as several blood transfusions in the count down to the Tour de France. The information gathered even points at a blood transfusion on the day of the medical control at the start of the Grand Tour, and twice during the race.

www.cyclingnews.com/...
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Message 26 - posted by pantanifan (U1668940) , Aug 22, 2006

Maybe Riis has been reading this thread - come to think of it Besonders has been particularly quiet just recently...
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Message 27 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 22, 2006

Good god..........hamilton must have been close to death taking that concoction.........or growing an ample pair of breasts!!!!! This is the very reason and shining example of why doping MUST be illegal and stamped out.
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Message 28 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

Alan - did you read the other lot of doping documents about Hamilton?
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Message 29 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 22, 2006

Its terrifying, was just reading them there. I felt sick reading the list of substances and regime he took. I am amazed he hasnt died already. He must have blood like glue and I'll be amazed if he lives past 45. I honestly am appalled.......shocked beyond words............this man must nevere be allowed near a bike race again, for his own good
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Message 30 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

From June 26th this year.

Tyler Hamilton revisited

El Pais turned its attention away from Spanish cyclists in its first big article on Monday, "The transfusions and the dollars of Tyler Hamilton". In September 2004, Hamilton tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion after winning the time trial at the Vuelta a España. He also returned a positive A sample for a homologous transfusion after winning the Olympic games time trial a month previously in August. His B sample was inadvertently frozen, and no result could be determined from it. Although he is still in possession of his Olympic gold medal, he was stripped of his Vuelta stage win and suspended until September 22, 2006, despite appealing to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

According to El Pais, the documents seized by the Spanish civil guard during Operacion Puerto show that Hamilton was not as innocent as he claimed. It's alleged that he not only received blood transfusions, but also a full doping program involving EPO, anabolics, growth hormone and IGF-1.

The paper claims that among the files of Dr Eufemiano Fuentes and Jose Merino Batres, are some details of Hamilton's financial dealings in 2002 and 2003, including a copy of a fax sent to his wife Haven to a hotel in Gerona, where he lived. On the fax, it's shown that he had paid €31,200 with €11,840 still owing: €35,000 was for the medical program, and €8,040 was for the medication.

The doctors' files allegedly consisted of two pages. In the first, a calendar of the racing season is laid out from November to October, with the races that the rider wanted to do well in being marked along with the medication that he should take. The markings were in the so-called "Sanskrit of Eufemiano", a notation system of substances, doses, and procedures. Before the 2003 season, Dr Fuentes indicated that Hamilton should start taking EPO from December 21, with 2000 units daily, up until Christmas Eve, and then on alternate days until January 9. On the 14th of January, before his first training camp with CSC, he was instructed to withdraw blood. On January 24, he was to start with anabolics. In March, after racing had started, he was to take HMG - a hormone used by menopausal women - to mask the anabolics, as well as taking growth hormone and insulin.

The second page of the file allegedly showed that he won Liège-Bastogne-Liège six days after a double transfusion of blood, won the Tour de Romandie shortly afterwards, and prepared for the Tour by not racing in May and taking anabolics and EPO. He then raced only the Dauphiné Libéré in June - completely anonymously, and didn't even start the final stage. At the time, he claimed to be suffering from stomach problems all week, but El Pais alleged that according to Dr Fuentes files, it was during another period of blood extraction. In the final lead up to the Tour, he was to take more growth hormone and re-infuse the blood, as well as doing so on the first rest day of the race.

www.cyclingnews.com/...

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Message 31 - posted by Zyclist (U2392870) , Aug 22, 2006

alanmcn1 brings up a good point; some of these guys may have great case victories; but in the end, they may pay a very high price; like I understand some have of whom we are not even familiar with.

One would wonder if one could test the limits of the body during a career and then recover!

Who would want to try it?


Its terrifying, was just reading them there. I felt sick reading the list of substances and regime he took. I am amazed he hasnt died already. He must have blood like glue and I'll be amazed if he lives past 45. I honestly am appalled.......shocked beyond words............this man must nevere be allowed near a bike race again, for his own good
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Message 32 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 22, 2006

Naspa,

there is one thing from this. Maybe we are being too harsh on the likes of Riis and the Phonak backroom boys. I have always firmly beleived doping requires a large team to administer and cover it up. But from Hamlitons case (which we only have snippets from admittedly) this guy seesm to have gone on a one man crusade with the aid of two doctors he was visiting for transfusion/blood doping and substances. This could theoretically have been done behind a DS back?
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Message 33 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 22, 2006

Of course it could have happened without the DS' direct knowledge or participation.

BUT, given the propensity for which doping seems to occur, it would be quite reasonable for the UCI to adopt stringent controls & reforms that included making the DS jointly liable for the doping of his/her riders. This means that the rider gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, then so to by direct implication does the DS.

This would have a huge benefit of forcing the DS to no longer turn a "Wilfull" and "blind eye" to these "non-sanctioned" training regimens.

Of course,including a list of accredited physicians from the UCI & WADA would also go a long way too!


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Message 34 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

Lets be honest its in Riis's interests to turn a blind eye. When Basso and Hamilton hacked up he was able to claim the glory. The team made tons of money. Now that things are going less well there is nothing to show that he was linked to their doping programmes and he can feign ignorance.
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Message 35 - posted by pantanifan (U1668940) , Aug 22, 2006

a bit like arsene wenger and alex ferguson having their view obstructed at crucial points of the match...?
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Message 36 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

I know that most PED's leave various physical tell-tale signs - ie huge head, huge feet, back-achne.

Would Hamilton's cocktail have produced any such signs that would have been obvious to someone who worked with him regularly?
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Message 37 - posted by andy tedd (U519661) , Aug 22, 2006

Riis and Basso come across as very close. I find it difficult to understand how he would not think that something was going on, even if he had nothing to do with it. That's assuming something was going on of course...

Surely stage 16 of the Giro would have had a DS asking questions?

Reading the list of stuff Hamilton was putting into his body is enough to make you pass out. Another Pantani waiting to happen
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Message 38 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 22, 2006

I think we are in agreement here naspa...of course it is in Riis' benefit to be wilfully blind to those on-goings. Hence, the importance of making them jointly liable within a "strict liability" infraction.

This means that the DS would be jointly liable should a rider also get caught.

Makes it near impossible for a DS to then claim he/she "saw nothing and knew nothing".

That is a critical piece required to breaking down the problems in cycling that we currently see.
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Message 39 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

According to the Phonak riders. Before stage 17, Landis came down told them how great he was feeling and they then planned the tactics for the day - riding at 50 for the first hour to shell the peleton.

Apparently not one of those riders said 'hang on Floyd, you got dropped like a stone yesterday and had to be paced up Axel to avoid losing anymore time. How exactly have you recovered so well in 12 hours?'
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Message 40 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 22, 2006

By having the riders conduct an "alternate, parallel" training regimen outside of the the offical view of the team, means that the team and DS have the crutch of "plausible deniability" to fall back on as their excuse time and again.

That is why Riis, et. al., would be more prone to being wilfully blind.

Course, I liked another participants idea of forcing each and every team to use only accredited physicians too. That would also go a long way towards helping correct the current situation by making more people jointly and severally liable for the strict liability infraction of doping.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 41 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 22, 2006

Dave - why do you think that teams are so happy for individual riders to go off and do some 'winter training' with Ferrari or to 'accidentally bump into him in a hotel'?

Although T-Mob have banned riders from working with him, none of the other teams see any problem with working with someone who is as corrupt and tainted as him.
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Message 42 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 22, 2006

Naspa...are we in disagreement here? I don't think so. I am suggesting that one of the ways to clamp down on the doping problems in cycling is to also hold the team, through the DS accountable, but also through the use of only certified physicians...certified through WADA.

And, these training retreats should not be a cover for individual seminars on how to "prepare" one's self...though there is absolutely no substantiated proof of that occuring.

I point out the concept of plausible deniability because it is a concept alive and well within the pro peloton.


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Message 43 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

Dave - we are certainly in agreement. Although to play devils advocate. If you are Riis and you are aware of how leaky something like sending someone to Fuentes is. Would you not bring it in house? That way you can control it even more tightly.

Set up a training camp somewhere remote - ideally at altitude, with tricky roads to pass so the testers can't make any surprise visits.

Set up suppliers in the countries of your main races, or indeed set up your own labs.

Pay the likes of Ferrari, Fuentes and Carmichael a large retainer.
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Message 44 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 23, 2006

Interesting that Basso and Riis were using the EXACT SAME mountain roads to train on as Ullrich........that famous story of the motorpacing incident where basso bombed past Ully........
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Message 45 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

I have long argued that there is a fundamental problem in sports journalism as well.

Most of the specialised press is too close to the teams to ask any difficult questions - ie no one at cycling news would seriously question LA about Ferrari. Whilst the mainstream press is simply too ill-informed.

Thus we end up in the situation of a tour bombing round at huge speeds, or we see some climber doing a Boardman-esque TT and we have to suspend belief as DD or DH tell us about how much work the rider has been doing in the 'wind tunnel'.

The lack of serious credible press scrutiny means that the likes of Hamilton can get away with it - and what is more because the press is so close to him, he always has a mouthpiece that is quick to defend him.

No one ever says 'Bjarne, you were nicknamed Mr 60% - your top two riders have been accused of doping - and your response has been 'I had no idea'. As a DS - what exactly are you doing?'
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Message 46 - posted by i am me! (U2215990) , Aug 23, 2006

(re. ex US postal riders) is it not possible that when lance found/suspected that they were on drugs?? lance seems to have a habit of not keeping in touch after they've left, even if they were "best mates" before
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Message 47 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 23, 2006

"Most of the specialised press is too close to the teams to ask any difficult questions - ie no one at cycling news would seriously question LA about Ferrari. Whilst the mainstream press is simply too ill-informed."

I wouldn't disagree, but I doubt very much that this isn't true in pretty much all sports & in "the media" generally... much of what passes as journalism is based on writing what the participants tell you.... slag them off too much, or ask really embarrassing questions, and you know that source (& possibly others too) will just dry up.... what's now called "investigative journalism" is what a lot more of mainstream journalism used to be.... and although much of it is too sensationalised, there isn't enough of it...


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Message 48 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

Naspa,

I hear what your saying - must be a difficult balancing act though. If they ask the question it won't get answered and in asking it they'd be ostracised by the person of whom the question is asked and (probably) ultimately the rest of the Pro Tour team community. If they can't get any information what can they actually write about? Only when they have proof can they go after people but you're right in respect of Riis in particular at the moment (and previously Phinak) that not enough tough questions do get asked. Riders fail tests but you know absolutely nothing about it - it's absurd!

I think the mainstream media is perhaps of the opinion that cycling is riddled with dopers and so there isn't really a story there in the first place.
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Message 49 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

Esteban - I agree entirely.

Part of the problem is that the press relies on the teams to give them their 'stories'. They depend on the teams for cycling stories as well as the ever popular 'human interest' stories - ie Landis and his hip, menonmite background etc.

This is merely a hypothetical example.

Lets take the bottomline. Newspapers have to sell copy.

Disco and stories about Disco riders sell copy in the UK and US.

If an English-speaking press group were to investigate Disco the response would be obvious. Disco would cut off contact with the group. As a result the group loses its main source of Disco stories. And as a result it loses stories that sell copy.

The bottomline is that the teams have emasculated the cycling press. They have them over a barrel. As Armstrong said to Simeoni 'I have money, I have lawyers...'

The problem is that once the fig leaf is removed - ie Landis - where we went from 'Awesome Landis' to 'Tour de Farce' in a day, then the press merely engages in an ill-informed feeding frenzy. The question is this, stage 17 raised more than a few eyebrows on this board - and yet there was not a single article raising a questioning voice about how it was achieved. Not one journalist asked how a rider could go from being dropped like a stone to riding solo for almost 180km? Instead we got blind faith from the press. That was a disservice to cycling.
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Message 50 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

You're example with Disco was certainly close to the mark with David Walsh and others who challenged the situation in the team. They were cut off completely.

I think it can be dangerous to distrust every amazing sporting achievement in any sport as being the result of doping - if we do that then have we actually got the sports as spectacles to enjoy or are we cynical doubters of any feat of human endurance or individual brilliance. It's a fine line - sometimes these apparently miraculous achievements happen without the influence of drugs and the papers have to assume that or else they'd be paying out huge compensation in libel awards to every sports person they doubt in there newspapers or websites.
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Message 51 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

Esteban - maybe it is wrong but given how many sporting achievements are achieved through doping perhaps we ought to be more cynical.

Afterall, trust and respect has to be earnt - the constant cheating and doping of top athletes means that they have abrogated their right to that trust.

They should be proving to us that they are clean. Once they do that then I might start to take them more seriously.
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Message 52 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

Naspa, it most certainly would be easier for a team to bring in its own phsyicians and specialists to assist with "additional or personalized" training to supplement the "official" training programs.

However, this is also highly speculative at this point, though not a large jump in logic given the level to which doping seems more prevalent.

I think many teams DO NOT organize such training programs, except perhaps to suggest to a top prospect, etc. ... "that if they wish to reach the upper echelons, they need to work with someone like Dr. "A" . "

Implicit approval for a personalized training regimen, yet enough ambiguity to allow for the plausible deniability defence.

Currently, if an athlete is not available to be tested, they run the risk of being sanctioned and having that failure to appear treated as a positive test result.

I believe that by broadening the net to include teams, primarily DS and having masseurs and physicians registered/certified by WADA and UCI and mandatory with the teams, then you have a chance to definitely break the doping cycle (no pun intended) and at the very least put a serious dent into doping.

Teams and DS's must file itineraries with WADA/UCI in January through to October, and be subject to both surprise and announced inspections and testing of course. Failure to comply would be similar to the athlete's "no show" - a positive test result.
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Message 53 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

Naspa - agreed but how do they go about that above and beyond passing the doping tests? For instance take Basso's win in the Giro and Ullrich's win of the Time Trial in that race. At the time both looked like great performances. Basso was peerless in the mountains and Ullrich looked like he was getting his form back after an injury. We've now learnt that both of these are likely to have been the result of doping but both passed drugs tests in relation to these performances. My argument might become cyclical here but at the time we all marvelled at Basso's ability to ride everyone of his wheel and seemed to trust his ability to do that. If we doubt the performances we're perhaps ultimately doubting the doping system that gives credibility to them too in these kind of circumstances. Does that make sense - I'm not sure it does to me!!
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Message 54 - posted by caribou_37 (U4989652) , Aug 23, 2006

And allow retrospective testing. If you know the current testing methods cant detect something, whats to stop you using it. If you know you can get collared 8 years later for, say, an EPO test when it wasnt available at the time, I bet you dont do it.
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Message 55 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

Esteban - That is their problem not mine. They have lost my trust and respect. They have to prove that they are serious about riding clean.

For as long as they continue to stretch the boundaries of credibility - with arguments like 'I never knew' and 'It was my invisable twin' - then I shall be sceptical of any performance that is above and beyond the norm.
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Message 56 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

Naspa,

Just to clarify has everyone lost your trust and respect or just those accused/caught doping?

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Message 57 - posted by Zyclist (U2392870) , Aug 23, 2006

Naspa,

Just to clarify has everyone lost your trust and respect or just those accused/caught doping?

Quoted from this message





Just the ones on this board!
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Message 58 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

I start from the position of giving no one any respect and then it has to be earnt.

Would trust the word of a professional sportsman as far as I could throw them.

Bunch of lying, cheating, drugged up ego-maniacs, who if it wasn't for their ability to run/ride/kick a football, they would be rightly in prison all with all the other less athletically gifted social reprobates.
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Message 59 - posted by ttthebear (U5277783) , Aug 24, 2006

Ugh. Reading all this stuff just brings my cynicism to the fore. A few thoughts.

Given that Hamilton, Landis, Heras were all part of Postal/Disco perhaps their behavior is part of the "technological" edge that Postal was always seeking. That is, maybe Postal/Disco had (has?) better chemistry. Think Balco. No one knew to test for their products cause no one knew they existed. So if you can spend millions to take a few seconds off a TT bike, well, I'm just saying.

So perhaps the answer is to just let everyone dope who wants to. They are professionals and adults who can make their own choices. If they so desire to win in cycling that they are prepared to shorten their life, let that be their choice.
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Message 60 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , 4 Weeks Ago

Hamilton is allegedly back under investigation. So surely this means under the ethic code that he can't ride even though his ban will be over. I for one hope we never see this lying cheat back in the peleton.


USA Cycling informed about Hamilton

The USA national cycling federation, USA Cycling, confirmed that it has "received information from the UCI regarding Tyler Hamilton and his alleged involvement in 'Operation Puerto' along with a request to move forward with disciplinary action." USAC has placed the matter in the hands of the US Anti-Doping Agency, which will adjudicate.

"We received a communication from the UCI today containing the 'Operation Puerto' dossier for Mr. Tyler Hamilton and a request to open disciplinary proceedings against him," said USAC's CEO Steve Johnson. "As required by our anti-doping regulations, we have forwarded the complete dossier to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency and have asked them to adjudicate this case on our behalf."

In less than two weeks, Hamilton will complete his two year suspension for blood doping in 2004. But the Operacion Puerto raids allegedly linked him to illegal doping practices in 2003. If found guilty of a second offence, he faces a life ban from cycling.

Hamilton's last statement on the Operacion Puerto affair was issued on his website, tylerhamilton.com, in August, where he denied any involvement. "What I do know is that these allegations are hurtful and false," he wrote. "It is not clear to me who is translating and alleging these things. I have never even heard of some of the substances listed within these supposed 'schedules'.

"It is also not clear why some riders have been cleared while others are being forced to wait things out. All that does seem clear is that this is not an ordinary investigation."

www.cyclingnews.com/...
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naspa



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: The only living boy in New Cross

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 61 - posted by kellyrocheearly (U4224263) , 4 Weeks Ago

i cant believe the organisors of that Mount Washington hill climb let him ride!!
They should be ashamed of themselves as Hamilton is a lying, cheating so and so would should be banned from even throwing his leg over any kinda bicycle and if i ever met him i'd tell him to his face
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Message 62 - posted by aggbiter (U5122995) , 4 Weeks Ago

I just looked at his site and the thing that stands out is OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST 2004.
So if it is proved that TH was doping in 2003, can we finally take the olympic gold medal that he won there.


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