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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: Hertfordshire
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks BG - and all that came out relatively recently. He must have been a very modest man. I used to be a 'Coppi' man, but the more I find out about Bartali the more I admire him and his achievements. (Still love Coppi too of course) The late forties must have been a marvellous time to follow cycling.
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 2969
Location: Ireland/Boston
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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well they do call the late 40's and 50's the Golden years of cycling as there were so many great riders.
Imagine seeing Coppi, Bartali, Bobet, Robic, Kubler, Koblet, Gaul, Bahamontes, Ockers, Van Steenbergen all battling it out all through the season. I've probably left out a few others too
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Pure Magic!
Magni is another of my favourites - would have been a household name were it not for that rich seam of talent you list |
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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and a lot of these gus would ride the 6 days in the winter all over Europe to make extra cash. There was no taking October & November off back then!
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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The days when men were men .....
You make a serious point though - its a far cry from the modern era of one GT and one warm up race and maybe the WC in the autumn!! |
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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Location: Ireland/Boston
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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was reading an article with Barry Hoban and he was saying how his income depended on him doing a good Tour and getting invites to the post Tour Criteriums. He said he would ride 10-14 Criteriums in the two weeks after the Tour and these would double his income for the year. Sometimes he'd do two in a day just for the extra cash.
When you compare there's absolutley no reason why the riders today would even need drugs!!
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Probably too much money in sport today ... most sports if not all. |
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bbnaz
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 3285
Location: aquí, allí y por todas partes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kellyrocheearly wrote: | | and a lot of these gus would ride the 6 days in the winter all over Europe to make extra cash. There was no taking October & November off back then! |
That may be, but I certainly remember many the pro rider who showed up and rode to fitness at the start of the season......just as many did NOT do year round riding or at least appeared not to.
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe, but they certainly raced more in the old days. I guess they couldn't afford not to before major sponsorship deals and mega buck prize money. |
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chasm
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 371
Location: North East England
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kellyrocheearly wrote: | was reading an article with Barry Hoban and he was saying how his income depended on him doing a good Tour and getting invites to the post Tour Criteriums. He said he would ride 10-14 Criteriums in the two weeks after the Tour and these would double his income for the year. Sometimes he'd do two in a day just for the extra cash.
When you compare there's absolutley no reason why the riders today would even need drugs!! |
They did ride much more often, and further, in the old days. Hoban, by the way, is much underrated; he was a seriously good rider.
Those old guys were on drugs too, though. Coppi was asked whether Italian cyclists used amphetamines in his day. He said yes, of course. He was asked if he used them. He said yes, whenever it was necessary. He was asked how often it was necessary. He said "practically all the time".
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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to be quite honest i dont blame them for feeling the need to take amphetamines back then as they had to ride ridiculously long stages and ride all season and be competitive all season. The sport being so tough back then is part of the reason we have a drug culture today
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Question is .... was Coppi playing by the rules or not? Were amphetamines banned in the 40s and 50s? I don't think so ... ipso facto he wasn't cheating like most of today's riders. |
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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true Bartali, i dont think they actually started dope testing until the early 60's??
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chasm
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 371
Location: North East England
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartali wrote: | | Question is .... was Coppi playing by the rules or not? Were amphetamines banned in the 40s and 50s? I don't think so ... ipso facto he wasn't cheating like most of today's riders. |
I agree. But that brings us back, doesn't it, to what the doping argument is really about. Is it that we despise people who use medication because it gives them an "unnatural" advantage? Or is it that we want people to keep the rules, whatever they are?
It isn't easy to have it both ways. If Coppi et al were good guys because although they doped, doping was legal, we can change everyone into good guys by making it legal again. If that wouldn't be acceptable, as most people seem to think, then it is difficult to make a case for why it used to be acceptable.
Anyway, we've probably done this to death......
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Probably done to death .... but I maintain that doping is just a rule just like any other. That we all get worked up about drugs is some larger issue with society that I don't understand.
Do we despise people who use medication because it gives them an "unnatural" advantage? We might try to kid ourselves that that is the case, but it is clearly not. Dod we dispise Boardman for employing a 'lotus' designed bike? No. Did we dispise Obree? No. Both had an 'unfair' advantage. Do we dispise atheletes who utilise the best pyscological advice ... or hmake use of the best dieticians? No. Seems to me that you call somethig a DRUG and everyone throws there arms up in dispair. Call it lucazade or Gatorade and that's ok.
For me ... rules is rules. I might not like 'em, but we have to play by them. Break the rules ... pay the price. But ... it is only a game. |
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bbnaz
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 3285
Location: aquí, allí y por todas partes
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Bartali,
That is pretty much what it boils down to isn't it? Rules are rules and most rules are abitrary. What may be legal (within the rules) now could very well be illegal (against the rules) next month if the powers that be decide so.
So if someone is staying just below the "illegal" line in testing, are they actually cheating?
I don't know and I would be inclined to say if the rules don't prohibit, then no.
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naspa
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 3506
Location: The only living boy in New Cross
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartali wrote: | Probably done to death .... but I maintain that doping is just a rule just like any other. That we all get worked up about drugs is some larger issue with society that I don't understand.
Do we despise people who use medication because it gives them an "unnatural" advantage? We might try to kid ourselves that that is the case, but it is clearly not. Dod we dispise Boardman for employing a 'lotus' designed bike? No. Did we dispise Obree? No. Both had an 'unfair' advantage. Do we dispise atheletes who utilise the best pyscological advice ... or hmake use of the best dieticians? No. Seems to me that you call somethig a DRUG and everyone throws there arms up in dispair. Call it lucazade or Gatorade and that's ok.
For me ... rules is rules. I might not like 'em, but we have to play by them. Break the rules ... pay the price. But ... it is only a game. |
Bartali - what is your position on the likes of Merckx. Merckx and others failed tests (ie against the rules of the time) but were not banned (as per the rules of the time) and were thus able to go out and set records and win races etc. For example if Pantani had been racing under the same set of punishments as Merckx he would have won another Giro. If Merckx had been riding under the WADA code he would have been banned for 2 years.
Moser as I recall failed 7 tests in one season but wasn't banned and hence carried on winning. |
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kellyrocheearly
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 2969
Location: Ireland/Boston
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: |
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7 tests in one year!!! thats beyond a joke
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shimouma
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm with the good Doctor Ferrari on this one:
If it you don't test positive for it, then you're not doing anything wrong.
The test determines whether you've been doping or not, and if it shows nothing out of the ordinary, then you're not breaking the rules.
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chasm
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 371
Location: North East England
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| shimouma wrote: | I'm with the good Doctor Ferrari on this one:
If it you don't test positive for it, then you're not doing anything wrong.
The test determines whether you've been doping or not, and if it shows nothing out of the ordinary, then you're not breaking the rules. |
Fair enough. But this effectively acknowledges that rules are arbitrary and are based on no inherent moral content. I'm happy enough with this, as a philosophical position, but history shows that laws that are felt to be somehow contrary to "natural justice" tend to be resented and eventually changed. It also begs the question of the basis on which rules are made, and by whom. If lawmakers have no moral authority, or are making rules that appear not to follow any coherent moral code, why should we obey them? Just because they are in authority? I think that argument went to meet its maker with the demise of the divine right of kings.
Rules must have some basis in right and wrong if they are to survive. Saying "you may take more dope than the next man as long as you don't raise your haemocrit/testosterone/HGH levels beyond some arbitrary level or one that that shows up in our tests" is effectively the same as saying that it is legitimate for everyone to use medication to raise their physical potential to a level that is competitive with the best. And I thought that was what the anti-doping rules were meant to prevent?
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