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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Fontfroide wrote:
But like with climbing, one day he can beat them all in a TT (witness his jersey)
French ITT champion ... umm ... beating Anthony Roux and Tony Gallopin does not a world class ITTer make. I know he's had the odd good result, but I'm sorry I just don't see him as a future GT winner.
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Mrs John Murphy



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Not many can train for both, and be fantastically wonderful at both, on pan y agua Wink


Just need some marginal gains, or some presents from santa.
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Boogerd_Fan



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Fontfroide wrote:
But like with climbing, one day he can beat them all in a TT (witness his jersey)
French ITT champion ... umm ... beating Anthony Roux and Tony Gallopin does not a world class ITTer make. I know he's had the odd good result, but I'm sorry I just don't see him as a future GT winner.



I think in the right circumstances he would come close... but seems when he gets his climbing sorted out (like when he first burst on the scene) his TT is crap...
he spent an off-season getting the TT right, and started to have bad days in the mountains...
this year he seems to have developed a kick or acceleration (something they admitted to working on), in case training switched back to climbing focus, i can understand he lost some power for the TT.

It was a good idea to go to this Giro, based on last years decent TT results in week long races, it was the right GT to focus on. I can't imagine how much pressure is on his shoulders in France, even with the emergence of Bardet as a fellow French rider with GC aspirations to split the national fanbase.

Back to the first point, what is remarkable is that Big Tom has never climbed that good (lost even more weight?) but was able to maintain his advantage against the clock - especially on show in the first TT.

p.s. i have no idea what i'm going to do tomorrow? when does the Dauphine start?
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Slapshot 3
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJM... how ya doin??

I think personally it's been a great race, you cannot deny Tom Dumoulin the win, he played to his strengths and came out on top, isn't that what it's all about??

The two favourites flattered to deceive for me neither Nibali or Quintana showing their true abilities more than once, Quintana on Blockhaus and Nibali on the Stelvio stage. Had they raced everything else exactly the same, had it not been for TD's crap stop he'd still have had two minutes plus at the start of today disappointing from that perspective.  

However every race is different and it throws up it's own excitement and whether its a great race or a mediocre race when we look back in a few years, right now it feels like we've had a real treat of a Giro..... i'm worried now the Tour will be even more mediocre than normal!!
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Severo



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styles make fights don't they.

I think for sure it's better than a guy who can podium on the most difficult mountain stage and podium in a long flat TT.

And if we can have more races in the next few years where the overall winners aren't perfect at everything and are managing their limitations as much as they are excelling in their area then it sounds good to me.

Right, Giro's over... when do the Spring Classics start?
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Severo wrote:

Right, Giro's over... when do the Spring Classics start?
Don't forget we have the Vuelta and Lombardy to look forward too Wink
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Movistar team manager Eusebio Unzue confirmed that Quintana would not race before the start of the Tour de France on July 1 in Dusseldorf. Quintana is expected to head home to recover from the Giro d'Italia and do some vial training for the Tour de France.


Seems to me he came into the Giro on good form and couldn't quite pull it off.  Not sure who's bothering to turn up in France but, despite the vial training, I don't expect a stella performance.
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Quote:
Movistar team manager Eusebio Unzue confirmed that Quintana would not race before the start of the Tour de France on July 1 in Dusseldorf. Quintana is expected to head home to recover from the Giro d'Italia and do some vial training for the Tour de France.


Seems to me he came into the Giro on good form and couldn't quite pull it off.  Not sure who's bothering to turn up in France but, despite the vial training, I don't expect a stella performance.


Very Happy  Very Happy
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Mrs John Murphy



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL
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Boogerd_Fan



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quints putting a positive spin on the result... that fever caused a lack of oomph on Thursday  the day they targeted to grasp Pink... well, they did enough for him to go into the jersey but not enough time was taken to be confident of the overall.

Tour has Porte, Froome, Bardet & Bertie.. plenty of folks to make it nearly as interesting as the Giro. Could Big Tom go there to double?? Very Happy
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:

Tour has Porte, Froome, Bardet & Bertie.. plenty of folks to make it nearly as interesting as the Giro.
Really? Bertie is past it and with only one GT top 10 finish I don't think Porte ever had it!! Quintana will be tired so that leaves Bardet!! Hardly worth tuning in .... unless one wants to see Froome, Thomas and Landa on the podium.  I wonder what the odds are ...
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:

Tour has Porte, Froome, Bardet & Bertie.. plenty of folks to make it nearly as interesting as the Giro.
Really? Bertie is past it and with only one GT top 10 finish I don't think Porte ever had it!! Quintana will be tired so that leaves Bardet!! Hardly worth tuning in .... unless one wants to see Froome, Thomas and Landa on the podium.  I wonder what the odds are ...


That's being unduly negative, due to the absence of a certain Sicilian..

Porte definitely has it. He's just been incredibly unlucky.
If he catches a break, he will certainly be a handful on the hills.


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mazda



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerry12ie wrote:
I'm not sure if too much can be read into the chase yesterday comprising teams that were members of Velon, and that those being chased weren't - but it's possibly an interesting coincidence...

Heard an interview with Mollema.
He said he was simply riding for the possibility of a stage win - and he sounded pretty genuine and relaxed, not at all defensive.

We can guess the same for the others, although Jungles could also play the Yates card - keeping a higher pace to discourage an attack
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mazda



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today it was all over by the first checkpoint, but that was a pretty good ride from Nairo to keep second.

I think we have seen a genuine performance from Tom this Giro and that the best man won.
To come out on top given everything thrown at him by the strongest team (Movi), the most inventive rider (Nibali) and various "accidents" is something to be recognised.

As for the criticism of the mountain parcours -
a) no GC contender attacks before the final climb these days - Bertie excepted
b) Nibali won the stage with the downhill finish

I am worried for the Tour.
Let's hope Astana have their A game.
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Fontfroide



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Fontfroide wrote:
But like with climbing, one day he can beat them all in a TT (witness his jersey)
French ITT champion ... umm ... beating Anthony Roux and Tony Gallopin does not a world class ITTer make. I know he's had the odd good result, but I'm sorry I just don't see him as a future GT winner.


You are right, I was exaggerating a little bit.  But he has improved a good deal in the TT, at least the French papers think so.  He could have done a good deal better the last day, and admitted he "felt bad" from the start.  I think you are right that he will, if he continues to train and ride like he does, not be a very likely GT winner.  He just has not quite got the right attitude and mindset.  He seems to be continually young and inconsistent.  But on the  other hand he will continue to entertain on a given day, and certainly has a urge to attack, which will enliven many stages to come.  He is a good climber, maybe even a great one.  Apparently he jumped in the car with his sweetie immediately after the race was over and drove back home to his pond and family.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
Today it was all over by the first checkpoint, but that was a pretty good ride from Nairo to keep second.

I think we have seen a genuine performance from Tom this Giro and that the best man won.
To come out on top given everything thrown at him by the strongest team (Movi), the most inventive rider (Nibali) and various "accidents" is something to be recognised.

As for the criticism of the mountain parcours -
a) no GC contender attacks before the final climb these days - Bertie excepted
b) Nibali won the stage with the downhill finish

I am worried for the Tour.
Let's hope Astana have their A game.


It became apparent when producing these threads, that almost all the climbs in this Giro were very similar in nature.
So, for me, it was never about attacking before the final climb, (although great on the rare occasions it happens) rather the way in which the finale was set up.
Blockhaus aside, which saw the only significant separation of the contenders, all the finishing climbs were around the 7% average, but crucially,  were hardest (9%) at the bottom.
They also gave us Monte Grappa and the Mortirolo, tackled by their rarely ridden, easiest sides. We had a Queen stage on the Marmolada circuit, yet with no Marmolada.
This meant, as we saw on Oropa, it was necessary to attack early, but incurred the risk of being caught later on.
So, although this was a "brutal" final week, it was perfect for riding to the power metre. It was why Dumoulin and no doubt Thomas had he survived, managed his difficult moments and showed no sign of panic at any time.

Bottom line for me is that time gaps at the Tour no doubt will be greater, but the racing will look very similar.
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Fontfroide



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:


Bottom line for me is that time gaps at the Tour no doubt will be greater, but the racing will look very similar.


I suppose I have to agree.  Modern racing is modern racing.  But on the other hand, I always (along with no doubt hundreds of thousands) always have that hope for a flash of brilliance, whatever it might be.  On a little hill. A big hill.  An apparent sprint.  A big sprint.  And the usual will they escape or not.  So me, I remain optimistic,blindly so.  I await the revelation of a new young rider or two.  

I noticed that Barry Boyce finished second in the Cobblestone thing.  Or was it Velogames.  I missed his quiz last winter.
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Mrs John Murphy



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:

Tour has Porte, Froome, Bardet & Bertie.. plenty of folks to make it nearly as interesting as the Giro.
Really? Bertie is past it and with only one GT top 10 finish I don't think Porte ever had it!! Quintana will be tired so that leaves Bardet!! Hardly worth tuning in .... unless one wants to see Froome, Thomas and Landa on the podium.  I wonder what the odds are ...


The Tour is the most missable race of the year. It's as if we've stepped into a time machine and set the date to 2001
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
Porte definitely has it. He's just been incredibly unlucky.If he catches a break, he will certainly be a handful on the hills.

Ummm ... time is running out for him. No podiums and just one top ten GT finish in ten attempts ... and even then he finished behind a couple of youngsters like Bardet and Yates. I agree he has been unlucky and he has often ridden as a gregario, but even so ...Nibali/Froome etc were getting much better GT results in similar circumstances.

Its not the absence of Nibali ... its the absence of any serious opposition for Froome. Bertie is no where near the force he once was. Even in his pomp he struggled to ride both Giroand TdF so I don't have much hope for Quintana. Aru is coming off a long break (even if he is riding). Valverde is about 100.etc etc. Yates has promise, but will likely just follow wheels for a few more years. If Bardet has a bad day, I think Sky have a genuine chance of putting three men on the podium.
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Mrs John Murphy



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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only a dose of the PDMs can stop it

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