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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:22 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Drucker wins the sprint from Selig Arndt and Meersman.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the Panther was going to sneak that one for old times sake Wink
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Interesting that Bakelants, De Gendt and others are calling foul and I have a lot of sympathy.  I also think that this is the thin end of the wedge and one firm decision would settle it once and for all for the good of the sport.  Whether Huw's suggestion goes far enough I don't know (and in any event it hasn't been applied).  Something should be done else the rule becomes useless.

I'm also a little insure why  it is argued that any future majority miscreant group"  would be "invisible" in terms of results. They wouldn't be invisible if they helped one of the guys who had made the time limit in future stages.

What would be the downside of sending them home ... I'm sure some of the things on Huw's list are a bit over-egged.  Rider safety?  Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a tiny team be unsafe?


It has to be weighed against ALL the implications for the race.
For instance rider safety: it was over 40C today and will be for much of the week. Hydration for solo and dual riders in hard racing a major issue.
Very unhappy sponsors = very unhappy race organisers.

Not to mention that 2 of the riders to suffer the most by the exclusion would be two of the hardest workers in yesterday's race, in Elissonde and Fraile.
Team 1 and team 2 respectively.
All that effort for the KoM down the Swanee.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you Huw ... its difficult, but without effective enforcement of the rules we have nothing.  For me, one could deal with Fraile and Elissonde by exercising discretion ... that's what its for IMO.

We will have to agree to disagree on the safety issue ... they get hydration from the cars and from the feeds, it makes only a little difference whether it is a small team or a big one. [FWIW there are small teams at the worlds etc, though that is only one day]

What it comes down to is money money money - we can't upset those sponsors.  But ... the sponsors wouldn't be upset if the riders hadn't taken the piss or if the commissionaires had been proactive. The sponsors should sue the team for failure to deliver IMO ...

FWIW, todays top 10 all finished out of time yesterday.  I'm not sure that means anything or not.
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Nolte



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
What annoys me is that with a bit of foresight from the commissionaires all this could have been avoided.  We were discussing the cut-off here so it wouldn't have too a genius to reach out to the DSs and say "ride or else".


Indeed there is president for this in the Australian worlds a few year back when the breakaway of 6 were looking like they could lap the field and the commissares told the peloton to speed up.

Matt brameier could have been world champion Sad
Though likely not.
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Boogerd_Fan



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either they are in or out...they can't be in but not counted for in the results. That would allow teams to prioritize stages, and let their domestiques crawl over the parcours on days they were not required.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Either they are in or out...they can't be in but not counted for in the results. That would allow teams to prioritize stages, and let their domestiques crawl over the parcours on days they were not required.


The argument against seems to be that, but really which is the lesser evil: targeting stages and using these domestiques, or turning the remaining stages GC, KoM etc into a complete joke?

That's a bit of a drama queen attitude to me. All they gained was being fresh for today's stage . Everybody gets tomorrow off and everybody took Friday off to the tune of 30 minutes.

So, talking as if 30 minutes saved on the road yesterday is going to make them superhuman compared to the rest, for 7 stages, is ridiculous.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But where does it stop Huw? Just because there was excitement at the front of the race doesn't excuse those at the back from taking the piss (yesterday or whenever).  Deliberate disregard for the rules - which is what this was - just brings the sport into disrepute.  What if three or four teams get together and all turn up with 'illegal' equipment?  Do we say go ahead and ride because we can't stop 36 riders taking the start line.  Or to stretch a point they all openly shoot up with epo ... do we let them ride because we can't throw a lot of riders off the race (well history suggests that might be the case). For me it is a point of principle, not expediency. Doing the right thing sometimes carries a cost and here the cost might be turning the remaining stages into a joke .... but this would never happen again.

Also,and I think it is quite important, as far as I can tell, the commissionaires have applied discretion that the rules don't permit.  No force majeure here! As Mr S often says ... this is just about money.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
That's a bit of a drama queen attitude to me. All they gained was being fresh for today's stage . Everybody gets tomorrow off and everybody took Friday off to the tune of 30 minutes. So, talking as if 30 minutes saved on the road yesterday is going to make them superhuman compared to the rest, for 7 stages, is ridiculous.


Sorry to go on and on ... but this entirely misses the point.  It's nothing to do with what the advantage might or might not be ... its simply about applying the rules.  When VP/JV got disqualified in the 2012 OG that was because the rules were correctly applied .... the advantage they gained was, quite rightly, irrelevant.

I'll shut up now.  Sorry.   Rolling Eyes
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart, you spoke of the jury exercising hypothetical discretion for Fraile and Elisonde. That's not in the rules Smile You also spoke of effective application of the rules. I know we'll disagree but what happened was both effective and discretionary in my opinion given the situation. The stage was raced in an exceptional way and there were exceptional outcomes. The rules allow for these exceptions because they're written vaguely enough.

Even though my tendency is not to throw the book at people (someone might get hurt), I'm not happy about the go slow precedent. I think the suggestion that they would be excluded from further results would be a good solution going forward. Sprinters and their trains could not take a rest for an upcoming stage. ITTers could not save themselves for an upcoming test. I might even go further and think about something like if it's as bad as Sunday with practically entire teams involved, then maybe something like a  25% or 33% cull of riders the next morning. Team with 2 riders in broom wagon get no penalty, 8 riders and you lose 2. The teams can decide who to DNS but it addresses the concerns about domestiques abusing the situation. Maybe? And it's just me waving my hands rather than a well thought out proposal, so bound to be stupid things I've not thought about.

I'm not sure it would be needed anyway as I think the exclusion penalty would lend enough impetus to the chase group. If Sky did chase for 40km the other day and none of the other teams helped, then I'm not surprised they said fug it and sat up.

Finally, as stupid as it might sound to some, I wouldn't want to take away the riders right to strike Smile
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mazda



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You only have to think about what _might_ happen in other team sports if something so unprofessional happened.

They should fine the teams for failing to control their riders, an amount that is significant enough so that it wouldn't happen again.
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
So, talking as if 30 minutes saved on the road yesterday is going to make them superhuman compared to the rest, for 7 stages, is ridiculous.


But recovery / managing exhaustion is critical in the latter stages of a GT. Riding half an hour slower on a 3 hour stage represents a very significant saving of effort. A crude estimate suggest that this represent approx 15% to 20% less effort, which is getting on for the difference between riding in the bunch vs riding in the wind all day. This maybe enough to make the difference between making a break or closing a gap for the team leader on a subsequent stage. Fine margins often do make the difference at pro level, notwithstanding Sky's b*llocks about marginal gains.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlowRower wrote:
HuwB wrote:
So, talking as if 30 minutes saved on the road yesterday is going to make them superhuman compared to the rest, for 7 stages, is ridiculous.


But recovery / managing exhaustion is critical in the latter stages of a GT. Riding half an hour slower on a 3 hour stage represents a very significant saving of effort. A crude estimate suggest that this represent approx 15% to 20% less effort, which is getting on for the difference between riding in the bunch vs riding in the wind all day. This maybe enough to make the difference between making a break or closing a gap for the team leader on a subsequent stage. Fine margins often do make the difference at pro level, notwithstanding Sky's b*llocks about marginal gains.




Not talking about Bart's POV here which is confined to the breaking of, and perhaps more importantly, the abuse of the rules merits an en masse DQF.
That stance is fair enough to me. There is nothing duplicitous about wanting to enforce rules, cos they are rules.

The point I was trying and clearly failing to make for some, is a hypothetical one, because that is the territory we are now in.

A large number of "rule enforcers" are attempting to justify their demand by citing what may happen in terms of possible breakaway wins, based upon that marginal 30 minutes. The same marginal 30 minutes that Movistar took legally, because of an arbitrary percentage. On Sunday, that arbitrary figure turn out to be exceptionally optimistic.
This seems to have become the party line amongst a certain cyclo-twitter/forum circle.

My response was should they have thrown the baby out with the bath water, by giving examples of how the race might well collapse into farce.

I guess that's my rambling way of saying throw them out for being lazy tools: fine. Just don't try and make out it's because one or two of those lazy tools might take a stage or do some longer turns in the mountains, when the alternative scenario is for a far, far greater final week farce.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
Bart, you spoke of the jury exercising hypothetical discretion for Fraile and Elisonde. That's not in the rules Smile
Probably Smile I think I would argue force majeure on their behalf as it was beyond their control that the gruppetto was taking the piss.  In non-exceptional circumstances they would have fallen back to the grupetto and finished within time.

Biosphere wrote:
You also spoke of effective application of the rules. I know we'll disagree but what happened was both effective and discretionary in my opinion given the situation. The stage was raced in an exceptional way and there were exceptional outcomes. The rules allow for these exceptions because they're written vaguely enough.
We will agree to disagree, but the rules peak of 'force majeure' which I take to mean that the exceptional circumstance is outside the control of the rider(s) affected.  Of course there is still some latitude for interpretation, but I can not see how the decision to ride so far off the pace was outside the control of the riders concerned.  They new exactly what they were doing and the DSs knew what they were doing. This was calculated deliberate rule breaking which should not be allowed to go unpunished.  Exceptional in its brazenness ... but certainly not force majeure IMO.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
The point I was trying and clearly failing to make for some, is a hypothetical one, because that is the territory we are now in.


Maybe we are focussing on the wrong stage here ... probably because of the media furore etc.  I agree with Huw that Sunday's rested riders were/are unlikely to have a major impact on the race due to the profile of yesterday's stage and the rest day today.  But what about the earlier occurrence that Huw has mentioned. Was it Friday?  Did 'rested' Movistar riders have a big impact on Saturday's stage and therefor Sunday too?  I haven't done the analysis ... but that seems more on point that suggesting Team Sky might gain an advantage in the last week.
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Boogerd_Fan



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The grupetto needs to respect making it within the time limit - it would still mean they are rested for the next days ahead.

Simple.

Chilling out and going 30mins over is just taking the piss

Not sure if it mattered much that Movistar riders were rested after that first breach of the rules... they were also put to the sword by OGE on the queen stage just got lucky that Moreno in the break meant they didn't have to do too much until Yates went ahead, and Quintana did most of the work himself on the day after.

I think we'll see Uber-SKY tomorrow, not because they are more rested but because Froome will be pissed he missed that move on Sunday, and the team will ride hard to set up Froome to go full apocalypse mode, for a big win, to put him within 2:20 of Quintana and leave it in the balance for the timetrial.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
A large number of "rule enforcers" are attempting to justify their demand by citing what may happen in terms of possible breakaway wins, based upon that marginal 30 minutes. The same marginal 30 minutes that Movistar took legally, because of an arbitrary percentage. On Sunday, that arbitrary figure turn out to be exceptionally optimistic.


Not sure you're entirely comparing apples and apples here.

Movistar's 30 minutes was the permitted time-limit on the stage on Saturday. The 30 minutes being talked about on Sunday is the excess over the permitted time-limit. The group concerned on Sunday was actually 54 minutes down on the winner. So Sunday's laggards had an unduly easy day which much affect things at the margins in coming days.

I know that time-limits on short stages are problematical as they are based on coefficients derived from long stages where attacks from the flag drop are rare. Hence, I wasn't bothered by the incident on the Alpe in 2011 where they missed the cut by a couple of minutes.

But missing the time-limit by half an hour isn't a quirk of coefficients. It was a collective decision to down tools and force the organisers to show leniency. (Which the rules do permit, obviously.)
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mazda



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting tidbit I have only just seen for the first time.

Orica have suggested the breakaway (the second surge by Contador) succeeded due to a crash by Van der Sande which caused the initial gap (I can't see this on the footage between 112 and 110 km to go).
Chaves and Keukeleire were just behind and would have easily been with the Contador group otherwise.

Still boils down to the fact that the second group had its chance to get back to the Contador group but I'm guessing they never expected them to keep going so never gave it full gas in order to catch up at the crucial moment.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
An interesting tidbit I have only just seen for the first time.

Orica have suggested the breakaway (the second surge by Contador) succeeded due to a crash by Van der Sande which caused the initial gap (I can't see this on the footage between 112 and 110 km to go).
Chaves and Keukeleire were just behind and would have easily been with the Contador group otherwise.

Still boils down to the fact that the second group had its chance to get back to the Contador group but I'm guessing they never expected them to keep going so never gave it full gas in order to catch up at the crucial moment.


This, you mean?

[/quote]

So, Froome also and that would have been that, for those crucial moments.


.........................
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Cyclingnews ...

Quote:
Chris Froome (Sky) has argued that the 93 riders who finished outside the time limit on stage 15 of the Vuelta a España should not have been reinstated to the race, although he understands the commissaires’ decision to allow them to continue. All of Froome’s Sky teammate would have been excluded from the race had the rule been enforced.


That's quite powerful ...


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