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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
In the end, Froome looked like he would have lost time even without the ambush, but when it's a different scenario hard to be sure.
Agreed, hard to be sure.  Interestingly (to some maybe), Froome did very very little all day, and was still out climbed by Scarponi, Chavez and a Quintana who rode on the front for the last 8km.  He looked tired today ... I expect the damage was really done yesterday where he fought like a lion to hand on to Quintana's coat tails. One GT too many IMO
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
So nobody has been Hors Delayed as I understand it. Here's who actually made the cut.


Click to see full size image

You all know my views on this ... I would only apply discretion in the case of a fall/mechanical ... not because 90 riders fancied an early rest day and banked on the commissionaires being gutless.  Disgusting IMO. And BTW - that's not anti Sky or anyone else ...
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sabcarrera



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:

Says a lot about the other 82's day.Tells me nothing more than that Sky 'sat up'.  You could see them on TV swing aside - presumably on team orders. I expect them to be rested and stronger for the final week.


How is that not cheating like using drugs to improve performance? Just because there are 90 of them they knew they could twist the jury's arm.
How can UCI expect to enforce rules credibly on cyclists?
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fine with riders sitting up, but yes, you are right.  The time limit should be enforced irrespective of how many are caught out IMO.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabcarrera wrote:
Bartali wrote:

Says a lot about the other 82's day.Tells me nothing more than that Sky 'sat up'.  You could see them on TV swing aside - presumably on team orders. I expect them to be rested and stronger for the final week.


How is that not cheating like using drugs to improve performance? Just because there are 90 of them they knew they could twist the jury's arm.
How can UCI expect to enforce rules credibly on cyclists?


Admittedly, 50 minutes is swinging the lead, but here's the thing: the entire peloton, led by Movistar, did this exact same thing on stage 13, (to the tune of 34 minutes) on a longer stage, raced at an entirely different intensity and speed. They did this definitely with the weekend stage is mind.
What follows tomorrow is a benign, mostly downhill stage, followed by a rest day.
Which group is the "drugs cheats"? Today's.
Why? Because of an arbitrary figure, sitting in splendid isolation from all circumstance, or motive.

Having said all of that, I too would have liked to have seen them all booted out, just to watch the circus that followed.
Would have been great fun, if not much of an actual cycling race.
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be great sport to see them all eliminated alright, but of course it's never going to happen (which is, of course, why the took the very conscious decision to do it).  It's always gone on, and until the commissaires actually make the big decision one day, it always will.

I have seen virtually nothing of the race so far, bar the last 20k yesterday and today's stage, so breaking my FP duck today was a proper Brucie Bonus Very Happy
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mazda



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I recorded this.
I've never seen anything like it.
We are truly going to miss Contador when he retires. Do you think he can be persuaded to act as a road captain for some younger, upcoming GC prospect ?
That said, if Quintana hadn't have been in the break it wouldn't have succeeded.

With hindsight Froome could have put in a dig to help his two teammates when the gap was just 10-12 seconds.
After that you had Sky trying to drive both chasing groups, which was madness.

Still astonished it looked so comfortable in the end, there wasn't that much available firepower in the escapees. I saw them all co-operate a little bit, but surely most of the effort was done just by 3 Tinkoff, 2 Movistar and De La Cruz (?).

I was glad to see Quintana accept the responsibility and lead out for the last km. He easily out-TTed Froome over that distance.
Chaves put in another fantastic effort to cut his losses, but we saw what eventually happened in the Giro after making some big efforts.

I'd also like them to chuck out all the delayed riders. Both in terms of the rules and a sense of mischief.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
Which group is the "drugs cheats"? Today's.
Why? Because of an arbitrary figure, sitting in splendid isolation from all circumstance, or motive.
Not at all Huw.  I'll give Froome credit where it's due (like the way he rode throughout the tour) and my comments today have nothing whatsoever with the fact I don't like him.  You are right though ... they took the piss on stage 13 and they should have been kicked out there too.

And I still don't understand why Astana worked so hard rather than put the pressure on the best placed rider.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
I saw them all co-operate a little bit, but surely most of the effort was done just by 3 Tinkoff, 2 Movistar and De La Cruz (?).
But while the Froome group was a lot bigger, the work was still only done by 2 Astana, 2 OGE and 1 Sky.  The front group worked really well throughout (albeit there were some passengers) whereas group two were pretty disorganised.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Today's stage classified it as the same difficulty as stage 13, despite being shorter, far punchier and following yesterday's mountain marathon.
Also, it was completed almost 15 minutes ahead of the 40kph fastest schedule.

David Lopez is an interesting case. After is huge work rate yesterday, had to go far deeper to day, often pulling the chase for many kms.
When he eventually runs out of gas, alone, mid mountains, finds there isn't a group to latch onto.
Ends up hors delay, with the others.

On the other hand, the look on Adam Hansen's face would have been priceless. Razz
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely a case of winners and losers there ...
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTF were Sky doing at the back in the neutral zone? Short of taking out an advert in Cycling Weekly, it's hard to know how it could have been more obvious that the hammer would be dropped by someone as soon as the flag dropped on such a short stage. (Does Berto on the Telegraphe in 2011 ring any bells?)

That said, Froome clearly didn't have the legs on the day - he conceded a lot of time to Chavez and Scarponi on the last climb and he'd normally put a fair amount of time into them when going full bore.

Froome could probably have better spent his time trying to close the decisive gap on his own when it was round the 10s-15s mark. He was relying on Lopez and Puccio(?) whilst he was on the radio to Sir Dave. Sometimes you just have to throw caution to the wind and "get back on" yourself (or "die" trying).

Unlike on the great time-limit scandal of Alpe D'Huez in 2011, I'm in agreement with Bart this time. Conceding 54 minutes on a 3 hour stage is just taking the p*ss. (I think it reduces the average speed to something akin to a top club rider in this year's Etape).
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes SR. From the top to the bottom, Team Sky were totally complacent and utterly crap, yesterday.
Movistar and Tinkoff, the opposite; alert, daring and utterly brilliant.


On the strict enforcement of the law:
Could they have started the final week and a day with a peloton of just 71? Sure they could. It is tiny, but viable.
Could they have started the final week and a day with a peloton of 71 with that demographic?
Definitely not, imo. Were it a WT week stage race, under UCI rules only Movistar would be eligible to take the start. 9 teams could just about scrape into lesser races, which this isn't.
Little doubt teams with 1 and 2 riders would pull out immediately with rider safety issues far out weighing the ambition to somehow survive to Madrid.


Anyhow, the reason for the above, is that I have read elsewhere what I consider to be a fair and equitable solution.
The punishment should be, that while these riders should be allowed to ride on, they be remove from all future classement.
So no stage wins, no points, no bonuses, nada.
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
Yes SR. From the top to the bottom, Team Sky were totally complacent and utterly crap, yesterday.


Even in amateur racing, positioning in the neutral zone (or even the car park before the neutral zone even starts) is essential!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
On the strict enforcement of the law...


I agree that there wasn't really an alternative but to let them all survive. Whereas Alpe D'Huez 2011 was a fairly marginal (a couple of minutes, if memory serves) yesterday was just a simple collective decision to "down tools" and rely on the organisers not wanting the scenarios you describe which doesn't sit well with me.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlowRower wrote:
HuwB wrote:
On the strict enforcement of the law...


I agree that there wasn't really an alternative but to let them all survive. Whereas Alpe D'Huez 2011 was a fairly marginal (a couple of minutes, if memory serves) yesterday was just a simple collective decision to "down tools" and rely on the organisers not wanting the scenarios you describe which doesn't sit well with me.


Hence the idea of making any future "majority miscreant group"  have to ride, (as their teams would require them) but  "invisible" in terms of results.

Stage 16 has kicked off in pretty much the prescribed manner. Siesta time.


Last edited by HuwB on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, it was great to see the over-reliance on radios being exposed yesterday.  I'm not singling out Sky here, as every WT team relies on radio transmissions, but they far too often suffocate initiative.  If Froome had jumped on the break asap instead of calling for support we wouldn't be debating anything today.  It was the few seconds indecision that allowed to move to establish itself, after that the real 'management' job was Valverde ensuring the pace was high enough to ensure Sky couldn't get back.  Maybe Sky as a team should have been more awake to what might happen, but ultimately Froome should have taken responsibility himself to latch on the move (difficult after a hard day for sure, but not impossible).

The bare facts are that a move like yesterday is, sadly, as rare as hen's teeth these days, so I'm delighted it paid off purely to expose dependance on radios.  We won't see much of it ever again either, as the vast majority of riders have only ever raced with radios.  BTW, I would feel the same if Sky/Froome (or Chaves/OBE etc) caught out Quintana/Movistar.

With Bartali's rose-tinted specs on, could you see Hinault fiddling about looking for support if, say, Fignon and Roche initiated a move?  I think we all the know the answer...
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
Yes SR. From the top to the bottom, Team Sky were totally complacent and utterly crap, yesterday.
Movistar and Tinkoff, the opposite; alert, daring and utterly brilliant.


On the strict enforcement of the law:
Could they have started the final week and a day with a peloton of just 71? Sure they could. It is tiny, but viable.
Could they have started the final week and a day with a peloton of 71 with that demographic?
Definitely not, imo. Were it a WT week stage race, under UCI rules only Movistar would be eligible to take the start. 9 teams could just about scrape into lesser races, which this isn't.
Little doubt teams with 1 and 2 riders would pull out immediately with rider safety issues far out weighing the ambition to somehow survive to Madrid.


Anyhow, the reason for the above, is that I have read elsewhere what I consider to be a fair and equitable solution.
The punishment should be, that while these riders should be allowed to ride on, they be remove from all future classement.
So no stage wins, no points, no bonuses, nada.


I like this idea, any chance it might ever happen though? Sad
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that Bakelants, De Gendt and others are calling foul and I have a lot of sympathy.  I also think that this is the thin end of the wedge and one firm decision would settle it once and for all for the good of the sport.  Whether Huw's suggestion goes far enough I don't know (and in any event it hasn't been applied).  Something should be done else the rule becomes useless.

I'm also a little insure why  it is argued that any future majority miscreant group"  would be "invisible" in terms of results. They wouldn't be invisible if they helped one of the guys who had made the time limit in future stages.

What would be the downside of sending them home ... I'm sure some of the things on Huw's list are a bit over-egged.  Rider safety?  Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a tiny team be unsafe?
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What annoys me is that with a bit of foresight from the commissionaires all this could have been avoided.  We were discussing the cut-off here so it wouldn't have too a genius to reach out to the DSs and say "ride or else".


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