justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index justcycling.myfastforum.org
Just Cycling
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sticky Articles
Comments and problems thread
Transfers 2018
2017 Season
Cycling on TV & Internet
The Cobblestone Fantasy Cycling League
Smarauder Trophy - Running Total 2017
Smaurauder Trophy - Calendar 2017
Popular Topics
TdF ’17, Stages 16-18: The Alpine Hike
Giro 2017:Dolce,Cafe and Grappa! Stages 16-21May 23rd - 28th
Tour 2017, Stages 1-4: Not quite the Lowlands, 1st-4th Jul
TdF ’17, Stages 14-15: Something for Le Weekend, monsieur?
FPs for GC etc and Week 1 of Le Tour, starts 1st July
TdF ’17, Stages 19-21: We'll Always Have Paris...
TdF ’17, Stages 10-13: 11th-14th July - To the Bastille
FPs for Week 2 of Le Tour, stages 8 to 14 incluxive
Top posters
HuwB 14885
Bartali 13549
kathy 12908
CapeRoadie 10191
Mrs John Murphy 8673
Biosphere 8626
Nolte 6812
Slapshot 3 6587
Fontfroide 6190
smarauder68 5365
gerry12ie 5292
SlowRower 5008
Sooty 4913
bianchigirl 4726
cardinal guzman 4659
Boogerd_Fan 4623
Ralphnorman 4323
crash48 4283
mr shifter 4117
cyclingtv 3854
berck 3768
sheeponabike 3723
last km 3593
bbnaz 3515
naspa 3505
Tour 2016, Stages 10-13 Across the Divide, July 12-15th
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The 3 GTīs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Please Register and Login to this forum to stop seeing this advertising.






Posted:     Post subject:

Back to top
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8626


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Huw's "moments before" photo sums up just how stupid the crowd control and moto stituation was. There are four motos more or less giving a lead out to the 3 bikes so probably some drafting benefit  . . .  but how are any of the 3 riders supposed to attack if they had the legs? They can't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fontfroide



Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 6190


Location: Herault, France

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was watching with two friends who came over for a detailed tutorial on a few aspects of the Tour, so no running commentary.  Just to throw my views into the pot.  The rules say riders cannot suffer if there are "encombrance" (in French, I watch the French TV) or blocking up.  TWo motorcycles and a practically impenetrable crowd is just that.  Good solution to give the Porte and Froome the same time as Molema since if they were not blocked it pretty certain that they would have stayed together for a few hundred metres, although we might guess Froome would have attacked successfully.

Obviously they did not have time to reconstruct all the barriers, which would have been intelligent and maybe solved the problem.

Booing Froome as he put got the jersey was tasteless, and in fact really disturbing.  Not like he did anything wrong.  He just crashed into a motorcycle which had suddenly stopped on account of the crowd pressing in.  Sometimes I feel like the motos should just accelerate and press a button to inflate a huge pushing device to just knock the spectators with no taste just trying to get on TV.

That crowd was way more ridiculous than any I have seen and I have watched many mountaintop finishes.

Overall a tricky decision but the right one.  

Does look like Quintana does not have it this year.  His only two attacks were pretty feeble.  Lets hope he finds his legs in the next week or so, just to make the competition interesting.  Although I don't remember the GC being so close lately.  No doubt it will stretch out a bit after the ITT tomorrow.
_________________
Politics and Cycling in the South of France
http://thomasvasil.wordpress.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8626


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trek have reportedly appealed the decision to give Porte and Froome the same time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4623


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
Trek have reportedly appealed the decision to give Porte and Froome the same time.


Good.  Twisted Evil  Razz

p.s. i don't expect it to get anywhere close to be overturned now, but its nice to see the team go for due diligence instead of just accepting it without any questions because its the ASO/SKY show.
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4623


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on, were Trek disputing the original revision? or the alternative one which has gifted Quintana same time as Yates (instead of +7s) What could push Mollema down to 4th? WTH

from letour.fr
1.
FROOME C.
SKY 57h 11' 33''
2.
YATES A.
OBE 00' 47''
3.
QUINTANA N.
MOV 00' 54''
4.
MOLLEMA B.
TFS 00' 56''


I assume this means they revised it back to the time gaps @ point of collision, where Quintana was still in the Yates group @ 19s from Mollema/Froome/Porte.
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HuwB



Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 14885


Location: Deep in the Black Mountains.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Good.............wait a minute I mean bad." BF still wanting the chicken and the egg I see. Laughing

As I understand it, Movistar appealed for NQ and they dropped his 7 seconds difference.
Which, imo, does turn things into a total farce again.
They take the times at the 1km to go, except for the riders who were dropped at that point.
How on earth does that work?

I really don't think Trek would be that totally classless, as to appeal against Froome and Porte.
After all, they cushioned Mollema's fall. Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4623


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, i've done a U-turn, but it is because in the mayhem i didn't realize that Mollema's time difference at the end was greater than it was at the point of the crash.

Anyway, Bauke is BACK! hi 5
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8626


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I assume this means they revised it back to the time gaps @ point of collision, where Quintana was still in the Yates group @ 19s from Mollema/Froome/Porte.


What I understood from the official explanation was that Froome and Porte were with Mollema at the time of the accident so got his finishing time. That I guess is clear to everyone.

Then by the same logic, Quintana and Valverde were with the Yates group when they came upon the crash aftermath and they were held up by the aftermath relative to the rest of the Yates group so they got the same time as Yates at the finish.

IMO, it is almost certain that there was bigger than a 19s gap between the two groups when the accident happened but no method to accurately measure said gap, so the groups get the finishing time of the best finisher of the respective groups - Mollema and Yates.

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
. . . i didn't realize that Mollema's time difference at the end was greater than it was at the point of the crash . . .


I don't think that's the case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4623


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to summarize, they have made it up, and used 2 different sets of logic.. that makes sense. Where it could be A or B, they have gone for C.
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13549


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well .... just watched it and perhaps predictably I will take a different view. I remember the Zoncolon a few years ago when the aussie won after a fan took the other guy out.  No talk their about changing the result. Its a race incident - no more and no less.  That said, the other riders should have voluntarily waited for Froome to get back on.

So why was Froome running?  Doesn't he have to cross the line with a bike???  Come to think about it .... is he allowed to ditch a bike, run and then pick up another bike?

Anyway ... much more interestingly.  I like the way Froome is racing, but the 'Froome' thing doesn't appear to be working for him anymore.  I wouldn't be surprised if he shipped some time to Porte and Quintana before the end of next week.
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HuwB



Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 14885


Location: Deep in the Black Mountains.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
Well .... just watched it and perhaps predictably I will take a different view. I remember the Zoncolon a few years ago when the aussie won after a fan took the other guy out.  No talk their about changing the result. Its a race incident - no more and no less.  That said, the other riders should have voluntarily waited for Froome to get back on.

So why was Froome running?  Doesn't he have to cross the line with a bike???  Come to think about it .... is he allowed to ditch a bike, run and then pick up another bike?

Anyway ... much more interestingly.  I like the way Froome is racing, but the 'Froome' thing doesn't appear to be working for him anymore.  I wouldn't be surprised if he shipped some time to Porte and Quintana before the end of next week.


Seems like in one paragraph you are liking the way Froome rides, in another you seem to be suggesting he should be booted off the race. Laughing
You truly are a hard man, Bart.

Anyhow the take from the usual source:

http://inrng.com/2016/07/the-running-man/



Now, note who only copped a small fine, the lucky boy.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8626


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you end up being the filling in a double race moto sandwich, I don't think it's a 'racing incident'. It was effectively the race organisation that took Froome out of the race - so up to the race organisation put him back in Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mazda



Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 2481



PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not happy that all the others have been given the same time as Yates.
Maybe Aru dragged them all back afer he attacked, but I'm not convinced.

Plus Aru gets a 50 CHF fine.

Amazing stage.
The incident with Froome going back to help his team mates after they crashed is completely overlooked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13549


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't see the Aru incident ... back late from work, but I did hear Kirby(?) make reference to an assist.

For the record, I AM appreciative of Froome's savvy in this race and I'm not saying it was necessarily a bad call by the commissionaires, but once again we have action to 'protect' the big boys whereas poor old Bongiorno on the Zoncolon misses out on the win of a lifetime. And to Bio's point, I don't see any difference - both events were caused by the race organisers failing to protect the riders.

Question ... had it all been a little less dramatic and Mollema say had gone down due to being clipped by the moto while Porte and Froome stayed upright ... would they have given Molema the same time? Personally I don't think so.  

The point about running was a serious point.  Not that I'm calling for him to be punished ... but don't you have to go from start to finish with a bike?  Isn't that why fallen sprinters pick their broken bikes up and carry them across the line rather than leave then for the mechanics to pick up?
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4623


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Millar has pointed out on the itv podcast that if Froome had continued running and crossed the line, it would have been a DSQ for not having a bike. Why that means its Ok for 1-200m while mavic/SKY got a bike to him, i'm not sure.

Re: Froome savvy - quite good cunning to have gone back to help teammates - prevented a Movistar counter while his guys were missing - but highly unorthodox, maybe that is the real strength of Froome.
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13549


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my point Boogie ... I don't understand why he was running? Genuine panic maybe?
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nolte



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 6812


Location: irlande

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had to be panic.

Looking from my armchair position, by running he delayed getting the bicycle from mavic or a team mate but then they would have had to travel similar distance to get to froome as he ran so by the way I'm thinking in my head, if he didn't run, he would have got either mavic or henao's bike sooner.

Although I know from experience, sometimes running can be as fast as cycling on uphill section Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
That's my point Boogie ... I don't understand why he was running? Genuine panic maybe?


Didn't look like panic; he seemed quite calm. I guess it was the nuclear option in case neither the team car nor a team mate could get through, though he should have carried his broken bike. After he'd tried the yellow mavic comedy bike he didn't resume running, presumably as word reached him that Sir Dave was about to arrive.
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
I didn't see the Aru incident ... back late from work, but I did hear Kirby(?) make reference to an assist.


Aru needed a bike change when the peloton was going pretty quickly. He had a long period of "mechanical assistance" and a very sticky bottle right under the nose of the Commissaire's motorbike. He was warned twice and then drafted the team car for a bit further. 50 CHF seems reasonable!

He changed bikes at least three times, so chapeau to him for being so active on the final climb.
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
And to Bio's point, I don't see any difference - both events were caused by the race organisers failing to protect the riders.


Sky have much better lawyers, I suspect!

And two wrongs don't make a right. The non-action in the Giro incident you describe is clearly wrong in my view (*) but that doesn't mean Froome should lose the Jersey simply to be consistent.

(*) If such things are allowed to affect the standings then there would be nothing to stop leading riders being taken out deliberately by "hired heavies".


_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The 3 GTīs All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 8 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum