justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index justcycling.myfastforum.org
Just Cycling
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sticky Articles
Transfers 2018
Comments and problems thread
2017 Season
Cycling on TV & Internet
The Cobblestone Fantasy Cycling League
Smarauder Trophy - Running Total 2017
Smaurauder Trophy - Calendar 2017
Popular Topics
TdF ’17, Stages 16-18: The Alpine Hike
Giro 2017:Dolce,Cafe and Grappa! Stages 16-21May 23rd - 28th
Tour 2017, Stages 1-4: Not quite the Lowlands, 1st-4th Jul
TdF ’17, Stages 14-15: Something for Le Weekend, monsieur?
FPs for GC etc and Week 1 of Le Tour, starts 1st July
TdF ’17, Stages 19-21: We'll Always Have Paris...
TdF ’17, Stages 10-13: 11th-14th July - To the Bastille
FPs for Week 2 of Le Tour, stages 8 to 14 incluxive
Top posters
HuwB 14885
Bartali 13543
kathy 12899
CapeRoadie 10191
Mrs John Murphy 8673
Biosphere 8611
Nolte 6794
Slapshot 3 6587
Fontfroide 6182
smarauder68 5365
gerry12ie 5281
SlowRower 5008
Sooty 4913
bianchigirl 4726
cardinal guzman 4659
Boogerd_Fan 4621
Ralphnorman 4323
crash48 4283
mr shifter 4117
cyclingtv 3854
berck 3768
sheeponabike 3723
last km 3593
bbnaz 3515
naspa 3505
Giro 2016:Dolce,Cafe and Grappa! Stages 18-21May 26th - 29th
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The 3 GT´s
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Slapshot 3
Site Admin


Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 6587


Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Surely the number of wins counts first:

Contador - Nibali - Froome - Quintana


Agreed, fun part is that unless they all raced one GT as a single target for the year, ie on equal terms, we'd never find a winner that people would accept. Last year was the closest it came to that but Contador had a Giro in his legs!
_________________
Don't give a damn about the peripheral shit anymore....just let me see some good bike racing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mr shifter



Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 4117


Location: The Green and Pleasant Land

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

`
Giro d’Italia victory cements Nibali’s role as future leader of Bahrain Cycling team

Vincenzo Nibali carefully hid behind the UCI rule stopping riders talking about their future teams until the transfer window officially opens on August 1, but Cyclingnews understands the Giro d’Italia winner will ride for the nascent Bahrain Cycling Team in 2017 after playing a key role in the creation of the new WorldTour team.
Lampre team interested.

Phew.  Very Happy
_________________
It's all Publicity "Money" and Cycling is only a Track it runs along.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13543


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile Smile
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8611


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Surely the number of wins counts first:

Contador - Nibali - Froome - Quintana


Whilst happy with the idea of Contador having a lot of talent, how should one calibrate him given that he won 4 GTs with Team Postal, was blocked from riding 3 Tours for doping reasons and lost another Tour title for doping? The rest of them have avoided any actual problems.

With regards to Quintana having beat no one of note for his GT win, Nibali's wins have not been against anyone on the above list either? AFAIK? I don't think it matters, but it was raised for Quintana. I think given his age he may finish his career with more wins than Froome or Nibali.

Personally, between doping, age differences and team budgets I think ranking them is fairly difficult and a simple list misses a lot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13543


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK Nibali beat Contador and Froome to win the TdF in 2014!!!

Not to mention previous GT winners Wiggins and Evans in the 2013 Giro
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8611


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as I said, I'm not so fussed about who Nibali did or didn't beat in each of his wins (and you don't win 4 GTs irrespective of competition without being very good indeed), but I don't think that when someone crashes out after 3 stages of a GT you've really beat them.

Anymore than Kruijswijk or Chaves beat Nibali by being better than him for 18 stages Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Slapshot 3
Site Admin


Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 6587


Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
Well as I said, I'm not so fussed about who Nibali did or didn't beat in each of his wins (and you don't win 4 GTs irrespective of competition without being very good indeed), but I don't think that when someone crashes out after 3 stages of a GT you've really beat them.

Anymore than Kruijswijk or Chaves beat Nibali by being better than him for 18 stages Wink


This.... I'm certain the outcome would have been hugely diferent if Kruijswijk hadn't crashed same as 2014, none of us can say what would have happened of Froome hadn't crashed before the cobbles or what Contador would have done to get back at Nibali throuygh and beyond the Jura.

Agreed you have to stay on the bike to win but can we honestly say they were beaten
_________________
Don't give a damn about the peripheral shit anymore....just let me see some good bike racing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13543


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But we can say Nibali was beaten by the Sky duo in 2012 even though he was ill in the Pyrenees? Seems to me we can go through the races and argue about who was there, who fell ill, who wasn't on their A-game and who fell as much as we want .... but ultimately the guy in the leaders jersey at the end of the day is the guy that wins and everyone else got beat.  I can't see it any other way.
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Biosphere
Site Admin


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 8611


Location: Der Schweiz

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course there are other ways to see it Wink

I think language is being stretched somewhat here. I have never seen it written that when a favourite crashes out of a race that the winner beat them. I'm very happy that you got a result at the weekend you can cheer about, just like I'm very happy for the Italian cycling fans. I had two very happy years living there so this isn't about me trying to bring Nibali down a peg or two. Just about how we quantify results.

To make it more abstract, if you can find a write up of the 2012 classics season that talks about Boonen beating Cancellara on his way to the cobbled double, or vice versa in other years when the injuries were reversed then I would start to think about how I understand language in it's normal use Smile

Quote:
In 2012, when Boonen dominated, it was in part because Cancellara crashed out of Flanders and broke his collarbone, while in the next two years, which saw a resurgence from Cancellara, injuries and crashes blighted both Boonen’s preparation for, and his participation in, the Classics. 2015 was even worse – Boonen crashed in Paris-Nice and ruled himself out of the Classics, and Cancellara cracked two vertebrae in E3 Harelbeke. Cycling fans have been waiting a long time to see the best two Classics riders of a generation actually race each other in their best form.


Taken from here which shows how difficult it can be to rank rivals

http://www.cyclingnews.com/featur...e-greatest-classics-rivalry-ever/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boogerd_Fan



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 4621


Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bertie has won loads of GT's - but extend this argument to his set and a similar pattern emerges..
e.g. Leipheimer 2nd in Vuelta 2008

I'd rather count their wins on face value. They beat the competition what was there..

It's pretty unfair to dismiss Nibali's Vuelta 2010 win, because Contador was absent, or Froome/Quintana can't be compared there..

the big 4 only became a "thing" in 2014/15.. maybe we need to review their achievements since that time... which would stand that all 4 have won a GT and add Aru into the mixer

Froome - Tour 15
Contador - Giro 15, Vuelta 14
Quintana - Giro 14
Nibali - Giro 16, Tour 14
Aru - Vuelta 15

this could be compared to their participations (not DNFs) in those 7 races.. which would indicate their strike rate.
_________________
Has the new Boogie arrived??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gerry12ie



Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5281


Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in terms of race savvy and awareness, Contador and Nibali are a class apart.  Quintana may be consistent but, for me anyway, his GT win is a bit sullied by the craic on the Stelvio.  Froome has that devastating, sustained kick that nobody can go with, but he seems to throw in an off day here and there or his bike handling lets him down.  Yes, Aru is in the mix, and it will be interesting to see how he goes without Landa as backup.

The Giro underlined, for me, just how very, very difficult it is for teams like Lotto Jumbo and Orica to defend a GT lead - and for that matter, Giant with Dumoulin last year.  Rather than ask who the GT king is at the moment, might we be better wondering if Nibali could have won the Giro riding for LJ or Orica, or if Aru could have won in Spain riding for Giant?  I think we all know the answers though...

The CN article on transfer rumours http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/o...ntador-and-manufacturers-dictate/ makes for the usual depressing reading, and underlines that the big and rich will get bigger and richer while the others scrabble around for sponsors and cheap transfers.  So really, as usual, the only chance Chaves or Special K have of winning big is to go to one of the super teams.


_________________
"I'm playing all the right notes. But not necessarily in the right order."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The 3 GT´s All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Page 9 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum