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Should the UK stay in the EU?
Yes
60%
 60%  [ 6 ]
No
30%
 30%  [ 3 ]
Don't know/ don't care
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10

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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
I agree that there is a strong air of sadness, especially among and for the youngsters.
But I have been trying to point out that in every group of 10 youngsters there will be 2 who voted leave, 5 remain and 3 who didn't vote.
They have their whole lives to recover and learn from this.
One thing they will learn is that you don't always get your own way in life.

I'd like to suggest an alternative interpretation and see where it leads ...

Given the result, could one not argue that is the massive metropolitan city centres (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh) that are the places that are "out of touch" in this country ?
Note that those places are overwhelmingly where our media and political centres are based.

I'm not convinced we can make the best of this "mess" while we still face a daily barrage telling us we have done the wrong thing. That can only deepen the divide in our country.
That is what saddens me.


I think the young people voters had a lot lower turnout than the 70% your numbers suggest. I think I read the turnout at the 18-24 end of the spectrum was 4 times lower than the pensioner turnout. Basically if Corbyn was energising the youth in the way that is claimed, they would have carried the day. The win was there if they could be bothered. That is another lesson that they probably will not learn.

Your alternative way of looking at it is along the lines of of what Mr. S is saying as well, in that there is a clear English / Welsh majority for Brexit. I worry though that it's not about being out of touch with one another, and instead it's about quite different views on things that may not be reconciled so readily. Watching C4 news tonight and the studio debate between the 2 sides was so angry Sad

Which leads to the worry of your third point. All I can offer is that with all these foreigners on forums telling you it's a big mistake, it may lead to a uniting siege mentality. Wink

More generally, I feel bad that the only piece of Marina Hyde that is referenced on this forum (AFAIK), is her dreadful piece on Shane Sutton, so to rectify that,  this observation on Corbyn made me laugh a lot.

Quote:
I salute Corbyn for being that rare thing: a soft-spoken egomaniac who doesn’t have sex with his own followers. But I concede that there will be those who think he can’t even lead a cult properly in this regard.

https://www.theguardian.com/comme...et-leave-lies-referendum-promises

PS: In the world of the 7 Day NHS, will it be acceptable for junior doctors to go play cricket on a Sunday during the outbreak of a deadly plague of biblical / apocalyptic proportions or is that just a privilege for the hard working gentry Smile
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Nolte



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this would agree with the 18-24 a lot lower than older people



source: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/06/brexit-vote-one-chart
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nolte. Not as extreme as the 4:1 I thought I read.
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mazda



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nolte.
Way more extreme than I imagined.  Sad

Either they weren't motivated to vote (but were registered to vote), or their mums refused to drive them the 200 yards to the polling stations.
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mazda



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:

Which leads to the worry of your third point. All I can offer is that with all these foreigners on forums telling you it's a big mistake, it may lead to a uniting siege mentality. Wink


I am more than happy for you to tell me it is mistake, and despite the fact you might think you know how I think, I almost certainly agree with you.

Who knows where this will end, politically, financially.
The status quo has temporarily been altered.
The money men do not like it and of course they are going to make things unpleasant, while trying to make a fast buck on the side at the same time.
I have no idea what the two main UK parties will do.
I'd be happy for them both to break apart and usher in a new system where voters vote for people they respect, not the party they hate the least.

Assuming the UK does leave, and that isn't certain you know, I do not know how the 27 other countries can do what is best for themselves. Might be catch-22. If they do what is best financially, then that might be the worst thing politically.
I know that different countries are saying different things.
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazda, the stat Nolte posted surprised me I must say.  I didn't pay avid attention to the campaigns other than my usual UK media outlets - BBC, Guardian (biased) and Telegraph (even more biased), and besides we have our own shit going on here that demanded my attention (Giro, Euro 2016, hurling etc...Wink.  Was there any kind of real attempt made on the Remain side to reach the U25s?  The turnout was very low (probably in line with most elections/referenda for that age group though) and Corbyn, in particular, is being savaged for not pressing a message.  I wonder is this all after the event, or was the campaign really as benign as is suggested?

With the young vote revealed as being this low, I might guess the urban adult Remain vote is even higher than I first imagined.  

When London pushes for separation I might even move back to my now achingly-trendy Walthamstow Very Happy
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mazda



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerry12ie wrote:
 Was there any kind of real attempt made on the Remain side to reach the U25s?  The turnout was very low (probably in line with most elections/referenda for that age group though) and Corbyn, in particular, is being savaged for not pressing a message.  I wonder is this all after the event, or was the campaign really as benign as is suggested?

Like you I only watch mainstream media channels, I have no idea how Remain tried to connect through alternatives.
Perhaps a bigger celeb endorsed campaign would have done the trick ?

I think the attack on Corbyn is just opportunism. Most voters were not
interested in what the party leaders had to say. So to blame him is a bit feeble.
Was he even that avidly pro-EU, it isn't clear to me. He doesn't seem to be the type of person to force his ideas on you. My step-daughter loves him. And she voted Remain. Perhaps I assumed everyone would be like her and be part of a super-connected whole that were motivated and itching to vote.
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gerry12ie



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
Biosphere wrote:

Which leads to the worry of your third point. All I can offer is that with all these foreigners on forums telling you it's a big mistake, it may lead to a uniting siege mentality. Wink


I am more than happy for you to tell me it is mistake, and despite the fact you might think you know how I think, I almost certainly agree with you.

Who knows where this will end, politically, financially.
The status quo has temporarily been altered.
The money men do not like it and of course they are going to make things unpleasant, while trying to make a fast buck on the side at the same time.
I have no idea what the two main UK parties will do.
I'd be happy for them both to break apart and usher in a new system where voters vote for people they respect, not the party they hate the least.


Assuming the UK does leave, and that isn't certain you know, I do not know how the 27 other countries can do what is best for themselves. Might be catch-22. If they do what is best financially, then that might be the worst thing politically.
I know that different countries are saying different things.


Maybe you have read this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2...e-fit-for-purpose-in-a-post-brex/
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Boogerd_Fan



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in case anyone in Brussels wasn't yet offended by the Brexit Brits... he had to go and do this:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-0...esses-european-parliament/7551854
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
Biosphere wrote:

Which leads to the worry of your third point. All I can offer is that with all these foreigners on forums telling you it's a big mistake, it may lead to a uniting siege mentality. Wink


I am more than happy for you to tell me it is mistake, and despite the fact you might think you know how I think, I almost certainly agree with you. . . .


I'm not sure I follow 100% but I meant the plural you (as all the voters). I hadn't actually assumed which way you voted. Others have been a lot more clear cut Smile

I'm actually ambivalent about the EU and on paper could have at least come up with reasons for voting no were I entitled to, but in practice I think whatever will replace it will be worse given the current political trends so would have been of a stay and reform mind.

I think Corbyn has to go because he is a poor leader. I was happy enough when he was elected as I thought anti austerity ideas at least needed to play out in a political debate, but he has come across as very ineffective and still stuck in the politics of his student union days. He wouldn't actually confirm that he had voted remain when asked by one of his shadow cabinet, which coupled with what is reported as his office sabotaging the Labour Party's remain campaign has led to an angry revolt from the PLP rather than an opportunistic one. IMO.
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
. . . . But instead, the refused to believe the EU could possibly have any faults, told Cameron to f*** off and are now probably sobbing in their (expenses paid) fine wine at the injustice of it all . . . . .


Careful SR. All this complaining about out of touch elites might lead to ludicrous claims of class warfare Wink


It's OK. I was complaining about the out of touch EU Big Cheeses, so no reference to "elite" here!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marina Hyde rightly got a bit of a pasting here for her cycling related comments, but she's still on form re politics: https://www.theguardian.com/comme...chael-gove-traitor-prime-minister
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Fontfroide



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole business is a perfect example of how inconsistent the argument is that EU leaders are not elected by the people, therefore it is not democratic and responsible.  The new Tory leader, elected like the EU leaders by elected representatives, NOT by the people directly, will soon be the leader of the government of all of the UK.  Never did see that as democratic either really.  And she might also be unelected by the party hacks NOT by the people.  IN fact, in Britain you never actually get to vote for either the head of state OR the head of government.

And yet everyone says it is "democratic".
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fontfroide wrote:
This whole business is a perfect example of how inconsistent the argument is that EU leaders are not elected by the people, therefore it is not democratic and responsible.  The new Tory leader, elected like the EU leaders by elected representatives, NOT by the people directly, will soon be the leader of the government of all of the UK.  Never did see that as democratic either really.  And she might also be unelected by the party hacks NOT by the people.  IN fact, in Britain you never actually get to vote for either the head of state OR the head of government.

And yet everyone says it is "democratic".


Valid points, though technically in the UK we don't vote for a particular PM, just a party. Crucially though, we (the UK) collectively can give the current lot the boot in under 4 years if we want to. That's not something we can do to any of the Commissioners or the odious Juncker.

EU democracy is different to UK democracy; whether one thinks the EU is undemocratic probably hinges more on whether one likes the whole EU concept rather than the actual merits of who MEPs, Commissioners, Presidents etc. are elected.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

`
I don't remember getting a chance to vote for  Neil Kinnock as an EU commissioner
The country never wanted him as a future PM but the Welsh Miners made him their MP and then an MEP.
He got the EU commissioner's job so his wife also stood as an MEP and got it. (lots of gravy train money in that home.  

The Conservative Party Members will have a vote to decide who there leader will be now the parliament MP's have decided  the 2 candidates.

Gawd help the country if that' choice is all we can look forward to,
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Fontfroide



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a tiny point.  No one (except MPs) gets to decide who is the next head of government of the UK.  although Tory party members who vote has some input.  But normal people cannot choose at all.

The opportunity to get rid of, within limits, the head of government is dubious privilege when both parties share so many assumptions but what is the way forward.

Another tiny point, we don't vote for a party even, we vote for an individual MP.  that choice is foisted upon us by a local party.

But it is true, the definition of what precisely is the system of voting and organisation of the government into a democracy does vary a bit from place to place.  And that issue is probably not a really important one.

I still think the rulers of the universe will make all this just go away and be buried.  In the end it will just be one or two minor inconveniences for Anglo immigrants (like big slashes in income for retirees) and some forms to fill out and money to pay for new documents.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are confusing the situation this time.
In the first place at Local level they select their choice for their own candidates and if they are elected by the general public, they then as MP's have the first go at selecting their leader.

This month they have a gutless leader who wants to run away and leave the barn door open for someone else to sort out the mess he has left.

Now the backroom Tory's that we we seldom hear about have decreed they don't need a members election of 2 candidates because the process will take too long. (This mysterious 1922 committee who were behind the Maggie Thatcher downfall and the reason Boris dropped out, is something we have no democracy about)
You see Maggie as Leader had to obey the the dictates of the 1922 committee and then they saw her getting so strong as the "Iron Lady" they worked behind the scenes to bring her down.

The labour party is in a similar position with differences of opinion between their MP's and the paid up membership.

I think it will be that our new PM will have a go at implementing "Option 50" to get out, but as she struggles then she can say "well I did my best" and not worry too much about the outcome because it is not her mandate.

The decent thing is to employ an outsider (like Farage) to do the negotiating and that will leave her with a clean sheet if he fails.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is it still class warfare if it's the maiden speech of the new Conservative PM?

Quote:
That means fighting against the burning injustice that if you’re born poor you will die on average nine years earlier than others.

If you’re black you are treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white.

If you’re a white working-class boy you’re less likely than anybody else in Britain to go to university.

If you’re at a state school you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately.

If you’re a woman you will earn less than a man.

If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s not enough help to hand.

If you’re young you will find it harder than ever before to own your own home. If you’re from an ordinary working-class family, life is much harder than many people in Westminster realise.
The government I lead will be driven, not by the interests of the privileged few but by yours. We will do everything we can to give you more control over your lives.

When we take the big calls we will think not of the powerful, but you. When we pass new laws we will listen not to the mighty, but to you.

When it comes to taxes we will prioritise not the wealthy, but you. When it comes to opportunity we won’t entrench the advantages of the fortunate few, we will do everything we can to help anybody, whatever your background, to go as far as your talents will take you.


Not surprising that Osborne's head was the first to roll tonight, but can't help wondering if May's reign will have a duration that falls somewhere between a Fruit Fly's and John Paul I Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boris as Foreign Secretary? Henry Kissinger's Nobel Peace Prize suddenly seems less ironic. We're all doomed. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless it all gets buried in talks, motions, committees, memos, small agreements no one can keep up with, court cases … until five years from now, we might have a few more bits of paper, but nothing much will change.

Those who think anyone can stop the flow of immigrants from war torn or poor areas to safe and rich areas will realise their error.  Those who think that more justice and fairness will be delivered by domestic political hacks than by Euro hacks, will see that they are all in the same game.  

Although secretly, I hope that the UK (minus Scotland by then) will be an example of how to be independent and "good" in a globalised world.

Many of the Anglo-immigrants I know are trying to get a permanent residents card, which of course they can get within a short time.  They think it will give them security, but sooner or later they might have become French, a project which some of them seem to be discussing.  

There are many scared, angry, upset people amongst the immigrants, although they call themselves expats.  Just like in the UK I suppose.


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