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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Leeds - Centre of the Universe
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 Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: |
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My take on this is influenced by firstly recalling my Rule #1, namely that anyone competitive in a GT must be doping because a) the impact of doping is vast, given physical demands of a GT and b) it's easy to dope effectively.
Therefore, Valverde has much to hide, so he's not going to be offering to undergo testing to rule him out of OP because any such testing will rule him in.
As the rules stand at the moment, the burden of proof is with the accuser (I'll leave it to better philosophers than me to argue whether this is justified in cycling, but that's how it is at present) so Valverde keeps his head down and keeps on riding where he's not banned.
If CONI genuinely don't have any evidence then Valverde could presumably take them to court in Italy and get the decision overturned. If he doesn't do this, then we can draw our own conclusions as to whether or not CONI are bluffing.
As to why Valverde is picked on as opposed to other equally pickonable, this is simply another example of the inconsistency that pretty much everyone applies to doping.
If all riders were hit with the strongest sanctions suggested for at least one rider, then there wouldn't be any riders eligible to ride (or even walk the streets this side of the 22nd century). Conversely, if all riders were treated with equal consistency at the weaker end of the scale then everyone would be happy with a 2 year ban for riders busted in accordance with the applicable rules and then welcomed back at the end of the ban.
Valverde could be classed as being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as the only Spaniard "picked on" by CONI, but conversely, he's in the right place at the right time by being Spanish rather than French. I guess "personal preference" is a key driver of how we perceive his situation...
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EPO is for wimps. Proper cyclists go faster on beer, curry and porridge. |
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Mrs John Murphy
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 5051
Location: Stepping on Cadel's dog
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| HuwB wrote: | | Mrs John Murphy wrote: |
Good job he isn't Italian, German or French because he'd be on a two year holiday by now if he was.
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Would have served his time by now. If he were Italian, he would be joining CONI as a "technical Adviser". If he were German, he would be writing his memoirs and riding for Whirlpool.
If he were French he would have been invited to re-open the prison on Devil's Island.
I don't see Valverde as the scapegoat for OP, Kathy, just as a target to re-dress the balance, as far as the Italians are concerned.
All the OP scapegoats were either Italian or German.
The Spanish riders were blessed with the right nationality. |
Valverde is symptomatic of the Spanish doping culture and the institutional protection of dopers. That is the problem. He is the poster boy for a corrupt system.
If he were British he would be a candidate for sports personality of the year and there would be countless articles explaining that he is just a bit scatty, either that or he is young and immature and doesn't always think before injecting. |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Leeds - Centre of the Universe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | If he were British he would be a candidate for sports personality of the year and there would be countless articles explaining that he is just a bit scatty, either that or he is young and immature and doesn't always think before injecting. |
Except if he changed his name to Dwayne Chambers and sang like a canary. Maybe DC should take up Spanish nationality.
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EPO is for wimps. Proper cyclists go faster on beer, curry and porridge. |
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 7730
Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kathy wrote: | | Bartali, I do believe there is some bluff on CONI's part. After all, they got Basso to confess without concrete evidence. It seems Valverde is made of sterner stuff. |
You may be right, but I struggle to buy in to that argument. Surely any half decent lawyer just pops along to CONI and says that their analysis is de facto not the OP analysis. CONI wouldn't have a leg to stand on ... surely?? Which leads me to think that it is Valverde and 'Spain' that have something to hide.
As to being given a hard time I think Don Alejandro actually gets off very lightly - perhaps because many believe he has been relatively clean since OP broke. Personally I like him as a rider (like DDL) and know little about any other aspect of his life. |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Leeds - Centre of the Universe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartali wrote: | | As to being given a hard time I think Don Alejandro actually gets off very lightly |
Presumably though it's not Valverde's treatment in an absolute sense that's the issue, rather it's the inconsistency of his treatment against others in an apparently identical position that seem odd.
| Bartali wrote: | | ...perhaps because many believe he has been relatively clean since OP broke. |
Does this mean that there is a level of doping that is acceptable?
In a perverse way, I have more respect for people who dope "properly" (i.e. ruthless, systematically, effectively and efficiently) than people who faff about in a half-arsed fashion. Proper and half-arsed doping are both wrong and if you're going to break the rules you might as well do it to the best of your ability, or better still, the best of an expert's ability.
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EPO is for wimps. Proper cyclists go faster on beer, curry and porridge. |
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HuwB
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 7285
Location: Deep in the Black Mountains.
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Slapshot 3
Site Admin
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2594
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Amazing....I don't think I read the name Armstrong in that article.... you sure it was velonews mate???
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It's just my opinion, if you don't like it....TOUGH
Look, I keep telling you I'm in shape...Round is a shape |
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Biosphere
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1787
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| SlowRower wrote: | | Bartali wrote: | | As to being given a hard time I think Don Alejandro actually gets off very lightly |
Presumably though it's not Valverde's treatment in an absolute sense that's the issue, rather it's the inconsistency of his treatment against others in an apparently identical position that seem odd. |
For me it is an absolute thing. He's been blatantly caught in OP but has got away with it. That's not right irrespective of what happened to Basso and Ulrich.
This year he's been banned by CONI on the grounds of what I'll presume is non falsified evidence (the bags don't need to go anywhere - a DNA profile can be emailed) and the UCI/WADA are trying to get CAS to implement a worldwide ban on the same basis. He's now gone on to win a GT when he really shouldn't have been competing (unless he was making his return like Basso) so I don't see how it can be argued that's having a hard time or is being witch hunted.
On the contrary he's a protected rider (to the extent that the UCI/WADA are also taking action against his national federation for not taking action). In fairness to the UCI they also went after him in 2007 but failed due to the evidence being kept under Spanish lock and key.
He probably is a nice guy with his family. When I've seen him race in person, I was immediately struck his elegance and fluidity. He belongs on a bike. However . . . . . |
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Enchantress
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of the rather significant legal issues and potential broadening of his ban....
Does anyone truly think he could win the TDF next year? Anyone? |
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SlowRower
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Leeds - Centre of the Universe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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No, but from his perspective, a bit of positive thinking will only help him maintain motivation through the off-season.
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EPO is for wimps. Proper cyclists go faster on beer, curry and porridge. |
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Bartali
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 7730
Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Enchantress wrote: | Regardless of the rather significant legal issues and potential broadening of his ban....
Does anyone truly think he could win the TDF next year? Anyone? |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
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Enchantress
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartali wrote: |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win.
Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak  |
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Me, a fan?
Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 127
Location: up yonder
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Enchantress wrote: | | Bartali wrote: |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win.
Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak |
funny how it so often leads in this direction. But what is an ideal course for Lance? Lots of wind and corners? Less than 5k of total ITT's and 150k's of TTT? No climbs longer that 6k and no gradients greater than 6%? 30 second time bonuses for the oldest bastard to cross the finish line? 
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I do not need mountains to win the TDF, I need drugs! |
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Mrs John Murphy
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 5051
Location: Stepping on Cadel's dog
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Enchantress wrote: | | Bartali wrote: |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win.
Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak |
21 40km TTT stages then? Highest point of the race a motorway bridge in Belgium. |
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Slapshot 3
Site Admin
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2594
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | Enchantress wrote: | | Bartali wrote: |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win.
Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak |
21 40km TTT stages then? Highest point of the race a motorway bridge in Belgium. |
.......as long as its a long shallow bridge with a nice new tarmac covering.......
_________________
It's just my opinion, if you don't like it....TOUGH
Look, I keep telling you I'm in shape...Round is a shape |
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Mrs John Murphy
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 5051
Location: Stepping on Cadel's dog
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Slapshot 3 wrote: | | Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | Enchantress wrote: | | Bartali wrote: |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win.
Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak |
21 40km TTT stages then? Highest point of the race a motorway bridge in Belgium. |
.......as long as its a long shallow bridge with a nice new tarmac covering....... |
With the crowds kept at a suitable distance to stop any French 'attacks'.
Shiti Piti finds a new safe haven.
I am amazed that he hasn't asked to move into the Spanish Embassy to be safe from arrest.
Valverde stays in Swiss hotel, avoids Italian raid
MENDRISIO, Switzerland (AP)—Alejandro Valverde and his Spanish road race teammates have checked into a Swiss hotel, avoiding possible raids by Italian authorities during the cycling world championships.
The Spanish cycling federation said Thursday that its elite men’s team was now staying at the five-star Eden hotel on the banks of Lake Lugano to prepare for its gold medal race Sunday.
The rest of Spain’s worlds team is staying nearby across the border in Italy, where Valverde is the subject of a doping investigation.
The 29-year-old rider is currently banned from competing in Italy until May 2011 by the national Olympic committee (CONI), though he is allowed to train and stay there.
Valverde is challenging the ban at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which expects to hear the case in October.
CONI believes a blood sample given by Valverde in Italy last year matches DNA from evidence seized in 2006 during the Operation Puerto investigation into an alleged blood-doping ring centered in Madrid.
Valverde argues that the Olympic body has no jurisdiction to rule on his case, or use evidence from Spain.
After winning the classic Spanish Vuelta stage race last Sunday, Valverde will chase a fourth worlds medal Sunday. He has two silvers and a bronze since 2003.
Spain’s nine-man road race team includes Olympic champion Samuel Sanchez and Oscar Freire, who is seeking a record fourth world title. |
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levi
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 247
Location: somewhere in wales
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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