justcycling.myfastforum.org

Enchantress · Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 1137

It looks like the eyebrows have been raised by Contador for his mountain performances.

Writing an opinion piece in Le Monde, Greg Lemond noted:

"Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport."

I'm not sure if Lemond's math is exact, but I am pretty certain nobody has had a figure that high - at least in cycling. i think Indurain was around 90 or so in his prime. Even pharmstrong had a value of around the mid-80's if I recall.

Not to mention Contador's vam surpassed that of Mr. 60% himself as well as Liestrong. Then again, I think Contador passed that too on last year's ride up the Angliru in the Vuelta - vam = 1900+ on that climb.

And all this was already out there before today's shocker. I mean, contador beating cancellera? And saying he took it easy over the last few km's? I mean contador has been at the front of the climbs, hammering his rivals while cancellera has been sitting in the grupetto on most of the climbs. Yet contador beats Fab easily?

If that isn't extraterrestrial then I don't know what is.

So is he going to get busted? Will it be another post-tour bust like "ROID" Landis? Will there be a doping scandal in the making here?

Oh yeah, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster Smile

Beasley · Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 1701

One the usefulness of vo2 max, for those interested (&/or with Athens access):

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise
Vol. 32(12) Dec. 2002, pps. 2079-2084
Lucia A (et. al.) Inverse relationship between VO2max and economy/efficiency in world-class cyclists.

Beyong the conclusion, goes well above my head, but might make sense to some.

More user friendly alternative:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2...t-cycling-in-mountains-apart.html

Contador was asked, but refused to comment.

kathy · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:18 am Post subject:

Actually, Contador didn't say he took it easy at the end of the TT. He said he took it easy on the last few km of the previous stage in order to preserve some energy for the TT.
_________________
"You can't win races with passion alone."

Fabian Cancellara (2008)

Enchantress · Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 1137

SlowRower · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:29 am Post subject:

I like the way the the estimated VO2 max is quoted with a decimal place. There must be a whole raft of assumptions underlying the calculations, so making a "point" estimate of such precision seems a tad un-necessary.

So, LeMond in implicitly stating that Bertie is doping? Who'd have thought that? Smile

More interesting questions are:

1) How much of Bertie's performance is dope related and how much is naturally powered? (and likewise for the Schlecks).

2) How much has Bertie's implied VO2 max changed since 2007 based on climbing performance and is this consistent with the observed improvement in his TT performances?
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?

HuwB · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:32 am Post subject:

Some doubt about LeMond's calculations, now. He may have pulled a "Coyle". Embarassed

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/c...s-climbing-credibility-questioned

Enchanted by that first post, btw! Smile

Slapshot 3 · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:54 am Post subject:

SlowRower · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:59 am Post subject:

Slapshot 3 · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:17 am Post subject:

SlowRower · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:56 am Post subject:

Jackov · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject:

ignore my post

mayofan · Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 1527 Location: good ol eire

you dont need dodgy sums to prove that AC is doped to his eyeballs.

The Lemondheads · Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 63

mazda · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 497

Just to be clear, for people like me.

VO2 is the amount of oxygen *used* by the body in burning it's fuel ?
(as opposed to, say, the amount inhaled)

So what is Greg suggesting ?
Bertie can burn fuel for long periods without using oxygen ?
He has an oxygen cylinder implanted inside him somewhere ?

I thought that, for these guys, power output over time was limited by the amount of fuel the body can mobilise rather than oxygen supply.
Or am I wrong, do they always have loads of fuel available in the cells, just waiting for the oxygen to arrive ?

SlowRower · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject:

Mazda,

Very simplistically...

VO2 max measures oxygen used.

Fuel supply is not a problem unless you "bonk", "hit the wall" or whatever the term is for running out of gas. At this point, body fat has to be used, and this can only be converted to a useable form slowly; certainly slower than it can be consumed aerobically by even a weekend warrior.

If you've eaten properly, the supply of fuel isn't an issue. On the oxygen side, the limiting factor varies between supply of oxygen to cells, the amount that the cells can actually use once its there and how efficiently they use it.

For normal mortals, its how much oxygen the cells can use that is the issue and most people get more oxygen than they can use. For freakish endurance types, the cells can use more oxygen than normally supplied, so extra blood supply is good. As you can't really increase your heart volume much, the way to go is to increase your red blood cell count.

I don't think there's much you can do about the efficiency of oxygen use in the cells. Wasn't this what Coyle claimed for Armstrong, to explain his pre and post cancer performance levels in the face of a broadly unchanged VO2 max?
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?

Enchantress · Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 1137

Bartali · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 11561 Location: Hertfordshire

Certainly not Bertie simply because he IS on the special brew. Same special brew that saw LA go from a good late spring classics guy to an unbeatable GT machine. Same brew that turned that other 10 stone 'weakling' (LL) into one of the best ITT men in the world.

Kloden will probably get busted for pre Astana matters. Shreks maybe .... but not Bertie.
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI

SlowRower · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject:

Bart - If I were to lapse back into WUM mode I'd ask why the Special Brew doesn't work on Armstrong any more... Smile

_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?

Boogerd_Fan · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject:

Bartali · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 11561 Location: Hertfordshire