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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

mazda wrote:
SlowRower wrote:

I probably shouldn't say this, but I'd really like to shoot up on EPO - under proper medical supervision

Any particular haemocrit %age in mind ?  Smile


Well 60% worked for Bjarne Riis, so I'd start there and work upwards. Smile
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feelings on Wiggins are thus.
Reading through the detail in his TUEs, and taking what is printed upon them at face value, he clearly has an allergy to grass pollen and in particular Timothy grass.
The medical history is clear and concise. Without calling the consultant and liar and the tests fake, there can be little to dispute.

Now, to the timing.
Even thought it would be, regardless of any performance enhancement, the obvious time to take preventative medication,  I have little doubt that Wiggins was fully aware of the secondary, less ethical benefit of taking his shot on the eve of his big GT of the year.
What is also telling, imo,  is the lack of a TUE for the 2010 season, which was somewhat less than successful.
So, while Wiggins is unimpeachable in following the rules, he clearly has used the law to gain an advantage.
From what I have read, that figure is around the 3% mark.

Finally, to any repercussions for Team Sky and their no needles policy.
Again, reading the info from those TUEs, it appears to me at least, that the injections fall outside of Sky's direct sphere of influence.
"The dose, method and frequency of administration as prescribed by you physician, (the consultant) and have to be followed meticulously.

Of course, the press and various cycling outlets will continue to sling mud, some of which will stick.
It really is time for DB to forget sweeping statements, hold his hand up and say : "Fuck it, from now on, we are going  just like the rest." and perhaps join the MPCC.
Life would soon become a whole lot easier.
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
...it appears to me at least, that the injections fall outside of Sky's direct sphere of influence.


Whilst this is true, it would be reasonable to ask Sky why they didn't undertake some research to find out whether the medical treatment they were sending their leading rider to undertake might involve needles, given their "no-needles" policy.

Imagine a vegan restaurant that marketed themselves as "Absolutely no meat products here!"

Imagine further that there was then a complaint from a punter that their jelly was made with normal gelatine, which contains ground up animal hoof, I believe, supplied by a third party. Knowing that commercial suppliers may not be as careful as one might require for your "Absolutely no meat products here!" claim - and everyone knows that large food production factories can't guarantee no contamination - who should get the blame for the gelatine? Restaurant or supplier?

Seems reasonable to blame the restaurant, as they didn't take all reasonable steps to ensure they could back up their claim.

So it also seems reasonable to blame Sky for not considering the possibility that a doctor might use needles.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
You realise you agreed with Mazda that Sam Quek was over stating her case, then went on to make a post which exactly mirrored her concerns over the public perception?
LOL ... did I do that Smile Just goes to show what a difficult topic this is.

Re Wiggins, I think you [Huw] draw a fair conclusion.  The one point I would add though is that it is almost impossible that Wiggins would be suffering with a Timothy grass allergy at the beginning of May which suggests to me some gaming of the system and a degree of complacency by the team and the doctor which I find more worrying (tho as you say, probably no different to other teams/docs).
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billgull



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://velonews.competitor.com/20...andy-guide-tue-controversy_421020
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Sky have to take their share of responsibility on Wiggins using needles and big drugs. Hiding behind doctors orders doesn't cut it after all their statements over the years.

The legality of what happened is also grey for me. Whilst the TUE application may have followed the rules, if it's taken for purposes other than to treat the condition concerned, then it's a breach of the rules. Given the statements from riders and doctors over the last few days, the timing of his TUEs, his false statements about no needles and his general demeanour during the 2010 tour where he was broken man speaking about how he didn't have the required chops to be a contender, then I feel comfortable enough with his self awareness of what was going on and moving his wins down a few notches on the sporting achievement scale.

As far as I understand it, a TUE is only needed for the strong stuff in competition, so as I mentioned upstream, we are still left wondering what goes on in training camps throughout the peloton.

Finally when talking about WADA's role in this we are straying into Putin's useful idiot territory {not that I'm even thinking of applying that term to anyone here)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport...-ioc-olympics-russia-ban-rio-2016
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SlowRower



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should clarify that I don't believe for a second that either Sky or Wiggins weren't aware of the likelihood of needles. Blaming it on the doctors is simply a schoolkid type attempt to devise a plausible excuse for not doing homework instead of making sure no stone is left un-turned in ensuring that homework is done properly.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
mazda wrote:
Of course I have asthma every day. I wonder how you would test someone who only showed symptoms very rarely.

Looks like Jaksche is suggesting Wiggins didn't have asthma every day only just before GTs ... whether that be in May or July!!

I still say there is no news here ... well not for those of us who are immune to Team Sky's PR.


Not trying to defend the indefensible Sky no needles flim flam, or singling out Bart's post here, but Jaksche and most other sceptics all jumped on the same bandwagon about the timing of Wiggins's 2011-2013  TUEs as being  extremely "convenient".
What surprises me is that literally no one seems to have noticed when those TUE applications were actually made.
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
What surprises me is that literally no one seems to have noticed when those TUE applications were actually made.


You'll have to spell it out for me as to what you're getting at. As far as I can see, the dates for the Sky era stuff are as reported - shortly before 2 x Tours and Giro

Nothing new here but not a bad listen whilst doing the dishes or whatever

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/..._the_use__abuse_of_the_TUE_system
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HuwB wrote:
What surprises me is that literally no one seems to have noticed when those TUE applications were actually made.


Am I missing something? Just before the Tour, Just before the Tour and Just before the Giro? Same issue ... two different times of the year

The 2011 TUE has an effective date and expiration date of 29 June 2011 .... yet was approved after the expiration date on 30 June 2011 ... yet refers to an ENT examination on 2 July 2011.  Does that make any sense at all? How can something be applied for and approved before the ENT examination actually takes place?  At the very least an admin error?
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
HuwB wrote:
What surprises me is that literally no one seems to have noticed when those TUE applications were actually made.


Am I missing something? Just before the Tour, Just before the Tour and Just before the Giro? Same issue ... two different times of the year

The 2011 TUE has an effective date and expiration date of 29 June 2011 .... yet was approved after the expiration date on 30 June 2011 ... yet refers to an ENT examination on 2 July 2011.  Does that make any sense at all? How can something be applied for and approved before the ENT examination actually takes place?  At the very least an admin error?


They'll be those post dated TUEs you often read about Wink

I spotted that when I went squinting at the screen, but presumed there was a proper explanation or else more would have been made of it.
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Boogerd_Fan



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Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy cover up Batman!
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartali wrote:
HuwB wrote:
What surprises me is that literally no one seems to have noticed when those TUE applications were actually made.


Am I missing something? Just before the Tour, Just before the Tour and Just before the Giro? Same issue ... two different times of the year

The 2011 TUE has an effective date and expiration date of 29 June 2011 .... yet was approved after the expiration date on 30 June 2011 ... yet refers to an ENT examination on 2 July 2011.  Does that make any sense at all? How can something be applied for and approved before the ENT examination actually takes place?  At the very least an admin error?


I'm asking why, instead of writing sensationalist pieces, why nobody is asking several questions that arise from what is written on those TUE forms.
Especially since a couple of the answers could bury Wiggins, rather than save him.

First off, nobody has cottoned on to the fact that both the 2011 and 2012 TUEs were applied for in May. (30th in 2011 and 15th in 2012)
Indeed, on the 2012 TUE, it even says Dauphine, as the relevant competition. Yet when one read the supporting notes it says "which I would like to do when he returns from the Dauphine..."
As to the Expiration dates and the authorisation dates being two days, one day and nine days...

So, why the delay between application and inoculation? (although in part, 2012 is explained)
Who is responsible for the delay?
Who is actually administering the treatment as referred to in the 2012 TUE?
Is this all be down to the hand of the dreaded Zorzoli?

All I have found out is the the name Mr Hargreaves would appear to be the go to person for ENT consultancy in the land of Wiggins and the first two TUEs applications might well explain the timing of the Giro TUE.

The other question that nobody is asking is that if the drug in question really is a quality PED, why no TUE for Wiggins's two best (imo) climbing performances in GTs?
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiggins on the Andrew Marr show ... even with a friendly interviewer who doesn't know what questions to ask, this is looking increasingly flimsy! For me, he's lost a lot of credibility over this ... but some of us have always questioned his road creds.  It will be interesting to hear what Brailsford and Team Sky have to say ... Walsh is suggesting that all this flew under the radar and Brailsford and the chief medical staff didn't know ... that seems incredible, but if its true then that paints Wiggins in an even shadier hue IMO.
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Biosphere
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't searched out the interview yet.

I'm incredulous that the team bosses and medical staff didn't know, but maybe that's a consequence of medical confidentiality (a practice I find tenuous at the pointy end of elite sport, but I can understand arguments in favour) and if Wiggins doesn't tell them then they don't know?
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biosphere wrote:
... and if Wiggins doesn't tell them then they don't know?
Which IMO suggests that Wiggins and the Sky doc knew that what they were doing was 'wrong' and arguably against the rules.

A lot has been said in the British press that there is no suggestion that rules were broken, but if the reason for a TUE was falsified or applied for when not fulfilling the appropriate criterion, then surely that is against the rules.  [/b]
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://news.sky.com/story/team-sk...amid-wiggins-controversy-10594490

Quote:
Team Sky will in future reveal all cases where its riders have been given permission to use banned substances for medical purposes.

Team principal Sir Dave Brailsford revealed the change of policy as he offered a robust defence of the decision to seek three Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) for Sir Bradley to be injected with the corticosteroid triamcinolone in 2011, 2012 and 2013.

The TUE records were revealed in a leak of hacked data obtained from a World Anti-Doping Agency database by a Russian hacking organisation calling itself Fancy Bears.

Sir Dave revealed that Team Sky has received 13 TUEs since its foundation in 2010, but in future they will make any future applications public with the consent of the rider.

He also suggested they might consider withdrawing any rider who was not willing to allow their medical details to be released in order to restore confidence in the system.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm ... not good enough.  'We asked a doc and the TUE was approved' is almost like LA saying 'I haven't tested +ve so I haven't taken PEDs'.

Cycling news have a list of questions.  Some banal, some good ... and there are some  good ones not on the list like why take meds for a grass alley 8 weeks before the european season starts in 2013, but don't take them in California when the season is at its hight.

Quote:
Some of the questions Brailsford and Team Sky have yet to answer

For a decade or more, triamcinolone acetonide injections have been viewed by medical professionals as a last resort for treating hay fever, with the NHS recommending against its use for that purpose in Britain. How did Team Sky arrive at the decision to use this particular product?
Who first suggested using triamcinolone acetonide to treat Wiggins' problems? Was the now banned doctor Geert Leinders involved in any way in the discussions?
Beyond Richard Freeman, how many members of Team Sky's medical staff and management were aware of the decision to use triamcinolone acetonide?
What was Dave Brailsford's precise role in the decision to apply for the TUEs for Wiggins? Is his role as Team Sky manager still tenable given his previous commitment to stringent anti-doping policies?
David Millar described Kenacort as the most potent drug he had ever used. Corticosteroids have been abused as a doping product for decades in the professional peloton. Did nobody at Team Sky think that applying for a triamcinolone acetonide TUE was morally wrong given its performance-enhancing properties?
Triamcinolone acetonide has dangerous side effects in the medium to long term, including bone thinning. Did any member of Team Sky's medical staff voice objection to the use of this product on these grounds? Did the team consider the longer term impact on Wiggins' health when administering such a powerful injection on three occasions?
Was there a culture within Team Sky to use TUE certificates to find a legal performance benefit while using a drug for medical reasons?
As far back as 2014, we have heard conflicting versions of Sky's policy on TUEs, with Dr. Steve Peters telling David Walsh that the team did not avail itself of TUEs in competition, while Dr. Alan Farrell said he was aware of no such policy. Does Sky have a policy on TUEs and has that changed at any point since the team was founded in 2010?
Wiggins used triamcinolone acetonide ahead of Grand Tours in 2011, 2012 and 2013, citing allergies, but did not avail of a TUE for pollen season in 2014, by which time he was no longer racing in Grand Tours. Why was this?
Wiggins also did not use triamcinolone acetonide in 2010, Team Sky's first season. Did Team Sky make a conscious decision to relax its policy regarding the use of corticosteroids after its disappointing showing in that year's Tour de France?
Why has Team Sky never signed up to the Movement for Credible Cycling?
Team Sky has placed great store on its zero tolerance policy. Was it not hypocritical to fire staff members Bobby Julich and Steven de Jongh in 2012 for doping during their racing careers, while tolerating the use of corticosteroids on the team?
Team Sky set out in 2010 with the intention of having a clean British rider win the Tour de France within five years. In light of the information revealed by the Fancy Bears hack, can Wiggins be viewed as that clean British Tour de France winner?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

California gets a special mention, but not the 2009 Tour? Very odd. I wonder why?

Talking of not good enough and the need to ask questions of teams and their bosses.

The lead section of David Walsh's article on this business from yesterday's Sunday Times:-

Quote:
........It was five weeks before the start of the Tour de France and Team Sky were on a training camp in Tenerife. Something was on Brailsford’s mind.

The previous day one of Team Sky’s soigneurs (carers) had been speaking with a soigneur from the Astana team, who were at the same hotel. “The testers will be here in two days,” said the Astana guy. This should have been a no-notice, out-of-competition round of testing. No one should have known it was coming. Sky’s soigneur went looking for Brailsford. “Astana are saying the testers will be here in two days,” he said.

Team Sky’s boss was not happy. His plan, as he told it in that phone call, was to pass on the information to UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) but on a confidential basis. He did not want the UK authorities to inform the UCI until he found out if Astana was right. Brailsford wanted an independent third party to be aware of the situation, hence the phone call to the journalist. Two days later, right on cue, the testers showed up at the Parador Hotel that Sky, Astana and other teams were sharing. Brailsford updated his contact at UKAD.

From there the case was handed over to the UCI’s anti-doping department, CAFD. Back at the hotel, Team Sky staffers tried to find out how Astana knew and worked out that when the testers booked rooms, a hotel staff member worked out who they were from a previous visit and told someone at Astana.


 Lucky this is only good old fashion doping and cheating the testers we are talking about and not TUEs, I suppose.
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Bartali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you are driving at re 2009?  A rider does well without a TUE in 2009 means he he didn't game the system in 2011, 12 and 13?  

The Walsh report is interesting and clearly disclosed with a view to demonstrating how above board Brailsford is. From your comment I guess you read it as a damming condemnation of Astana who are - you are reading into this - engaging in good old fashioned doping.  Here's a question though ... why would an Astana soigneur share such information with a squeaky clean Team Sky?  Did he not know that Sky were above board? Did he not think to keep the info to his own team and hope Sky got busted? Or was he just commenting on how 'stupid' the testers were without any bad intent.  Take away the spin and these things can be read in different ways.  But, neither Wiggins, Brailsford or anyone on this forum has made any attempt to explain why Wiggins needed a Tue in April 2013.  It is impossible that he was suffering from a timothy grass allergy so either Freeman(?) was being careless with Wiggins' health in applying for the Tue, or it was taken for preventative reasons (unlikely and against the WADA Code), or it was taken for performance reasons.  I can't think of a fourth (and legitimate) reason - but I am very very willing to listen and learn.


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