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naspa



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Armstrong de-legitimises himself by maintaining what is increasingly an untenable stance - ie that he was clean. That he could be clean and beat a doped up Basso and Ullrich. This is akin to still claiming that Saddam Hussein posessed WMD.
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan Ullrich's former manager and long-time adviser Rudy Pevenage has admitted knowing Eufemiano Fuentes, the doctor whose clinic was raided last year, launching the long-running doping investigation known as Operación Puerto. In an interview with Sueddeutsche Zeitung today, the Belgian expressed his disappointment in being pushed out of the sport because of the negative press, pointing out that "half the field knows Fuentes."

Pevenage complained that the Germans were spending so much time focusing on doping to the exclusion of actual race coverage, something that doesn't happen so much in his home country. "We also have our share of doping stories with Museeuw and Vandenbroucke, but people still love cycling."

Having watched a lot of the German events on ARD, I can confirm that:-
a) Marcel Wurst was, as Kathy says the anchor of their coverage. Without him, they are b) destined to spend an inordinate amount of time banging on about doping, while threatening not to show any cycling.

Seems we in the UK don't own the sole copyright on self-destructive journalism. Sad
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
Armstrong de-legitimises himself by maintaining what is increasingly an untenable stance - ie that he was clean. That he could be clean and beat a doped up Basso and Ullrich. This is akin to still claiming that Saddam Hussein posessed WMD.


Of course, every rider knows Armstrong's not clean. They don't appear to be up in arms about it. Basso and Ullrich surely never were. They know the game and they weren't upset. They still are not upset with Armstrong. So why should we be?
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cyclingtv



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CapeRoadie wrote:
So why should we be?
Cape.. most who post here.. have no problem.. but some do..
that's their right.. and you can't debate.. their right away..
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyclingtv wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
So why should we be?
Cape.. most who post here.. have no problem.. but some do..
that's their right.. and you can't debate.. their right away..


And so we should not debate the right of riders to ingest what they want.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CapeRoadie wrote:
naspa wrote:
Armstrong de-legitimises himself by maintaining what is increasingly an untenable stance - ie that he was clean. That he could be clean and beat a doped up Basso and Ullrich. This is akin to still claiming that Saddam Hussein posessed WMD.


Of course, every rider knows Armstrong's not clean. They don't appear to be up in arms about it. Basso and Ullrich surely never were. They know the game and they weren't upset. They still are not upset with Armstrong. So why should we be?


What have the riders got to do with it?

Why should we take our lead about sporting morality from those with compromised morals?

Afterall, most squaddies don't think torture is a bad thing, but we don't take our moral lead on the legitimacy of torture from Lindy England...


Last edited by naspa on Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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berck
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
... beat a doped up Basso


Basso wasn't doped. He just intended to dope. Fuentes was saving it up for him when he wanted to do it. Wink Very Happy
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
naspa wrote:
Armstrong de-legitimises himself by maintaining what is increasingly an untenable stance - ie that he was clean. That he could be clean and beat a doped up Basso and Ullrich. This is akin to still claiming that Saddam Hussein posessed WMD.


Of course, every rider knows Armstrong's not clean. They don't appear to be up in arms about it. Basso and Ullrich surely never were. They know the game and they weren't upset. They still are not upset with Armstrong. So why should we be?


What have the riders got to do with it?

Why should we take our lead about sporting morality from those with compromised morals?

Afterall, most squaddies don't think torture is a bad thing, but we don't take our moral lead on the legitimacy of torture from Lindy England...


What is compromised about their morals? They ingest what they want. They're adults. it's no different than deciding to smoke or drink. They created their own rules within the rules. Why should they change what they've always done just because a Dick Pound or WADA says so?

Are you equating torture and murder with the victimless sports "crime" of doping?
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ullrichfan



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CR have you read LA Confidential yet? In it you will find that US Postal took twice as many "medicines" as all the other teams combined during a Tour.

Knowing this, it explains how USP could have their blue train on the front every day, even in the mountains. Given the amount of abuse, can we really say that Armstrong was the greatest rider in the peloton?

Or is it simply that, he was the greatest doper?
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ullrichfan wrote:
CR have you read LA Confidential yet? In it you will find that US Postal took twice as many "medicines" as all the other teams combined during a Tour.

Knowing this, it explains how USP could have their blue train on the front every day, even in the mountains. Given the amount of abuse, can we really say that Armstrong was the greatest rider in the peloton?

Or is it simply that, he was the greatest doper?


Twice as many? Not likely.

Armstrong was just the fastest in 7 straight Tours, that's all. Are you seriously arguing that Armstrong did more drugs than Ullrich, Basso, Pantani and all the others? LA Confidentiel is hearsay. What do Walsh and Ballester use for support of the "Twice as many" argument?
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MS



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
CR have you read LA Confidential yet? In it you will find that US Postal took twice as many "medicines" as all the other teams combined during a Tour.

Knowing this, it explains how USP could have their blue train on the front every day, even in the mountains. Given the amount of abuse, can we really say that Armstrong was the greatest rider in the peloton?


Gee, I'm no scientist, but that sounds like...

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MS



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How tough would it be for anyone to take a glob of testosterone gel (pretty easily had) and slap it on the back of any rider on a mountain stage?


An interesting point and a valid one. But in terms of "unintentional doping", I think it's important to understand how these cyclists first start. As I undestand it, when an amatuer/junior rider is first approached by a pro team, the parents of the rider are essentially asked to sign over control of the rider's health care to the team directors/coaches. This way, riders are steered towards specific doctors who are amenable to prescribing the necessary juice. You see how many times riders come out after being caught and say "I didn't knowingly take ______"? For some, that's probably accurate. Since they were teens, they've gone to the special doc who injects them with something "that helps them recover". Many probably don't know, or more accurately, don't want to know what they're taking.

The point is, to even be in the game, you have to dope. Anyone who thinks CSC or T-Mobile are motivated to self-test by aspirations of "cleaning up the sport" are fools. They self-test to keep their sponsorship. They most certainly do not want their riders to stop doping (they won't be competitive), they want to present the illusion that their riders are clean to appease the sponsors, the press and certain fans.

If you move away from the Festina/Kelme models of organized doping within the team, you push riders to characters on the fringe. If you can afford Ferrari or Fuentes, you're fine. I'd enjoy hearing someone explain how this current situation better safeguards the health of the riders.
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Dr.Wierd



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MS wrote:
Quote:
CR have you read LA Confidential yet? In it you will find that US Postal took twice as many "medicines" as all the other teams combined during a Tour.

Knowing this, it explains how USP could have their blue train on the front every day, even in the mountains. Given the amount of abuse, can we really say that Armstrong was the greatest rider in the peloton?


Gee, I'm no scientist, but that sounds like...




Oh no..see.....it was printed in a book....so it must be true!!
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shimouma



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CapeRoadie wrote:
Many fans appear to believe that only a few riders dope. The ones who dope get caught, mostly, they believe. Their wins were the result of doping, or "better doping".


Cape, you made a mistake here I'm afraid.

What you meant to write was:

Many fans who watch the Tdf and don't follow the sport that closely believe that only a few riders dope. The ones who dope get caught, mostly, they believe. Their wins were the result of doping, or "better doping".

I don't think anyone who follows cycling year round really believes that only a few riders dope....
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HuwB



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klöden not happy with Jaksche

Jörg Jaksche is not the most popular rider in the German peloton after his doping confession. Andreas Klöden (Astana), who currently holds second place overall in the Tour de France, is annoyed with his countryman after the suspended Tinkoff rider confessed to doping in a recent interview with Der Spiegel. "It irritates me that some riders only come forward to confess to doping when they are offered a lot of money to do so, and self proclaim themselves as the rescuer of the cycling world, when they lied and deceived us all for many years," Klöden explained to Dutch paper Algemeen Dagblad.

Gerolsteiner's Fabian Wegmann mirrored Klöden's sentiments in an interview with German television ARD. "It's a slap in the face," he stated. "He messed things up for years on end making money along the way. Now he talks about morals and ethics. That I can't stand."

Spezialetti to meet CONI on Thursday
Italian Alessandro Spezialetti (Liquigas) is due to face the Italian Olympic Commission's (CONI) anti-doping committee this Thursday, regarding his involvement in the 'Oil for drugs' case, according to Sports Wereld. The case began in 2004 after it was alleged that fraudulent doctor Carlo Santuccione was supplying athletes with doping products.

Besides the 32 year-old Italian, Eddy Mazzoleni (Astana) and this year's Giro d'Italia winner Danilo Di Luca (Liquigas) have also been implicated and will appear this Friday and Saturday respectively.

'Doctor Mabuse' slated for court appearance
French soungier Bernard Sainz, known in the cycling world as 'Doctor Mabuse', is due before the French court for possession and sale of doping products, according to French newspaper Le Parisien. While the court has confirmed Sainz's appearance, it's not known exactly when Sainz is due to appear.

Sainz was suspected in the late 1990s to be in the possession of Diprostčne, Redoxon, Syncorthyl, testosterone and cortisone. Furthermore, it's alleged he supplied and administered professional cyclists with doping products like EPO and testosterone.

The now 63 year-old become well known when he was stopped by a highway patrol, and found to be in possession of large quantities of doping products. At the time, Sainz said he was leaving Frank Vandenbroucke's home, which lead to the police searching the cyclist's residence, where they found EPO, morphine and clenbuterol.

Ullrich comments on doping confessions
Jan Ullrich has broken his silence, giving an interview in L'Equipe in which he said that he felt he was the scapegoat, who others are using to make money from. "Looking back, it seems as if my suspension didn't help anything," he said. "The problem is not me, but cycling itself."

He refused to confess to doping, and speculated as to why his former teammates Erik Zabel and Rolf Aldag had done so. "I find their comments rather funny, especially when you think what they said about me when they were both presenting themselves as clean," Ullrich added. "I don't owe anyone anything and have enough money to live on until the end of my days. But they probably had to admit their failures in order to keep on working."

In addition, Ullrich said that no one needed to worry about him. "I know that some people think I am on the verge of suicide," he said. "But I'm still here and am very happy with my life." SW

Should give some of you more to debate, although, as none of this mentions Armstrong......

.......I see he still has defenders out there in the woodwork.
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shimouma wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
Many fans appear to believe that only a few riders dope. The ones who dope get caught, mostly, they believe. Their wins were the result of doping, or "better doping".


Cape, you made a mistake here I'm afraid.

What you meant to write was:

Many fans who watch the Tdf and don't follow the sport that closely believe that only a few riders dope. The ones who dope get caught, mostly, they believe. Their wins were the result of doping, or "better doping".

I don't think anyone who follows cycling year round really believes that only a few riders dope....


Not us, I know.

But many more on this side of the Pond, I am afraid... even the "experienced" ones.
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Ralphnorman



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so how many Leaky gas riders have been summoned by CONI so far? must be most of the Giro team.....watch out Wegalius....
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should defend Armstrong. And Ullrich. And all the rest.
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Ralphnorman



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

even if we believe that they are guilty?
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naspa



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CapeRoadie wrote:
We should defend Armstrong. And Ullrich. And all the rest.


No.

I wouldn't defend a murderer and I wouldn't defend a cheat.

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