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Mrs John Murphy

Vuelta Stage 15 Avilés > Anglirú 142.2km

Stage 15 Sunday 04 September Avilés > Anglirú 142,2 km





HuwB

A pity that there is so little in the way of live coverage of this, the Queen stage, since for once, the Angliru shouldn't be shrouded in mist or rain.....



.......voted breakaway, but missed the Moncoutie option, who is the guy I was thinking of.
kathy

The stage is on Teledeporte from 15.15CET, so hopefully you will be able to find an online link just after.
Biosphere

I saw mention the other day of £3 and a UK mobile number to watch on ITV4. I've been to the website and clicked to watch ITV4, but it just says it can't be found. Is that cos I'm geo restricted and it's not letting me get as far as subscribing?
gerry12ie

Biosphere wrote:
I saw mention the other day of £3 and a UK mobile number to watch on ITV4. I've been to the website and clicked to watch ITV4, but it just says it can't be found. Is that cos I'm geo restricted and it's not letting me get as far as subscribing?


Kooks like it.  FAQs...

I live outside the UK and cannot watch programmes, why?

We do not hold international rights to all of our programming so video content is supplied only to users with IP addresses in the UK. Some users in Britain may be affected by such geographic blocking if their internet service provider uses servers outside the UK.
kathy

TDP's studio guest today is Pedro Horillo.  Nice to see him again after his horrible crash that ended his career.  He's looking very lean and fit.
HuwB

kathy wrote:
TDP's studio guest today is Pedro Horillo.  Nice to see him again after his horrible crash that ended his career.  He's looking very lean and fit.


I saw it, since I have this site's player installed:
http://veetle.com/index.php/channel/view#4e5aaf62eb478

Finally, Tdp! Talking about yesterday's crash into the undergrowth.

Wink  Very Happy
kathy

OK, looks like Teamskyfans have come up trumps for you

Try this

http://sports-livez.com/channel/ch-6.php
HuwB

kathy wrote:
OK, looks like Teamskyfans have come up trumps for you

Try this

http://sports-livez.com/channel/ch-6.php


Doesn't work for me. Veetle is great quality.
I can see the nice pattern on Pedro's scarf!
Come on with the live pictures already.
kathy

Kroon out - in hospital for observation witha fracture after his crash yesterday.
HuwB

ITV 4 are live now, with a very good feed. (My pathetic Sunday broadband speed is just about coping)
Makeup any bogus e-mail address you fancy and it should work:
http://www.itv.com/lavuelta/2011/live/
kathy

It's gone off TDP and onto La Primera now.
kathy

Another link

http://www.yycast.com/toser1
smarauder68

Hey Bart, why do you find it so hard to believe that Sky got a hold of some good drugs??? You still think your Italians are the only ones allowed to dope without scrutiny???
Fontfroide

Do like seeing Sastre in front, I missed him and he has done nothing much yet.  Not that I think for a moment he will win the stage or even be close.
cyclingtv

bravo to carlos for giving it a go..
Fontfroide

Harmon admits he is being immensely partisan today.  I didn't realise.
Fontfroide

Its the Angliru!  Am I on the wrong thread, did I get the address wrong for the party.  Helloooo.   Laughing
cyclingtv

when given the opportunity.. people can be such idiots..
Fontfroide

That steep bit was just packed with them.
Fontfroide

I suppose now "some" will wonder about Cobo.  Ask some questions.
smarauder68

Naw, Cobo is safe from ridicule here....as long as you have Latin blood or three names or more, it's all good...
cyclingtv

being a good teammate.. menchov makes sure no bonus seconds for froome..
HuwB

Fontfroide wrote:
I suppose now "some" will wonder about Cobo.  Ask some questions.


Cobo was the third stooge at the 2008 Tour, along with Ricco and Piepoli, so "some" don't need to wonder.
He rode all last year and managed a CQ points total of.....................nil.

Nevertheless, a climber he is and that's what he did.
He was also down to be my fp pick, until I had a brain fart.

Some big losers today. Fuglsang sticks out.
Poor old sick Kessiakoff. All his dreams litereally end up down the toilet.
smarauder68

One of the best stages I've seen this year...would have liked to have seen a stage like this in the TDF...

I wonder how many will face elimination.
Fontfroide

Excellent racing.  Maybe the Vuelta is over, but it has had plenty of surprises already.  Why not another?
cyclingtv

smarauder68 wrote:
One of the best stages I've seen this year...would
have liked to have seen a stage like this in the TDF...
I wonder how many will face elimination.

maybe you should of taken the odds
on Fuglsang finishing ahead of nibali Laughing
smarauder68

Funny how the masses are so alarmed by the Sky boys riding so well, yet a known doper rises again and nobody blinks an eye....
kathy

You know Cobo then, do you Scott?
HuwB

A sick Fredrik Kessiakoff made it home 21.45 down with a couple of team mates. Drops from 3rd, to 6th, to 26th overall, after two days of stomach problems.
gerry12ie

Great.

So encouraging to see a rider so calm and collected crossing the line.  Its never appropriate to finish ANY race in distress so he learnt a valuable lesson at the S-D 'finishing' school.  

Anyway, enough of all that let's get back to the Wiggins/Froome doping debate, it's much more fun than talking about a puncher that didn't trouble the scorers last year suddenly developing into a GT hopeful at 30 years of age.

Pah
smarauder68

kathy wrote:
You know Cobo then, do you Scott?


I remember him winning a stage at the giro a few years back or was it the stage when he finished 1,2 with Piepoli at the Hautacam??? Either way, he dissapeare as if he went into the witness protection program...something to do with being busted, no???

SD didn't have the purest of reps, did they?

Either way, it's laughable how nobody questions his sudden revival...
Mrs John Murphy

I don't think anyone is under any illusions about Geox. Their DS is Gianetti for fucks sake.

You don't need to be suspicious of Geox - everyone knows they are dirty.

Cobo as Huw says was one of the SD trio of Piepoli and Ricco. Menchov scored 9 on the UCI suspicion index.

Gianetti almost killed himself with EPO and was then in charge of SD - which featured Mayo, Cobo, Ricco, Piepoli and 'honest' Dave Millar.
smarauder68

Far as I'm concerned Froome has been robbed of a GT win...robbed by his allegience to Wiggins and robbed by an obviously doped to his gils Cobo...
Biosphere

smarauder68 wrote:
kathy wrote:
You know Cobo then, do you Scott?


I remember him winning a stage at the giro a few years back or was it the stage when he finished 1,2 with Piepoli at the Hautacam??? Either way, he dissapeare as if he went into the witness protection program...something to do with being busted, no???.


No
Mrs John Murphy

smarauder68 wrote:
Far as I'm concerned Froome has been robbed of a GT win...robbed by his allegience to Wiggins and robbed by an obviously doped to his gils Cobo...


Boogerd_Fan

smarauder68 wrote:



Either way, it's laughable how nobody questions his sudden revival...



we don't need to highlight it, everyone is thinking the same when they see a Geox (former SD) rider power away from everyone else.

In other news, has Fuglsang finished yet?

Laughing


Wiggo did a lot better than i expected to be honest. I thought he'd get found out at anything over 12-13%... and he survived the toughest ramps save for those in the last couple of km of the climb.

Mollema - well.. rode defensively today - but he is one to watch spark something on the rouleur stages next week?

On the whole, a great spectacle and a good result. It would be farcical for Wiggo to claim a GT that featured the Angliru and only 40km of iTT.
Will Sky now work for Froome? It's going to be an interesting hotel room tonight and tomorrow.
HuwB

Totally agree with wot Boogie said.
Scott flogging a 3 year old dead horse named Cobo?

Well, I jump Bart with this post, but it's a good one, I feel.
This should be very handy for our few, remaining US members who often find "live" coverage occurs at unsociable hours. Plus, our hard working Europeans.Wink

A page worth bookmarking.
Dim (Teamskyfans) over on Cyclingnews forum has a Dailymotion account for cycling vids.
The last 48 minutes of today's epic, avec David Harmon:
http://www.dailymotion.com/CVChannel2#videoId=xkvexh

Enjoy...........or not.
hengispod

well hats off to froome and wiggins for their efforts today.
wiggins maybe needs refuelling with milk and guinness! heroic efforts have left the lad temporarily wasted.
froome, as from other comments made...if he had been riding for another team, instead of for him and wiggins?
but, who was to know that before this race?
well sky know it now, and 2012 strategies will have to change.
nibs never gave up, and gave what he had.
cobo.... well. hugely impressive climbing, but what he's on, is or isn't on, i guess speculation is inevitable.
Nolte

sure, how can you believe Cobo's performance. 2 years ago he finished behind Deignan on the overall of the vuelta Very Happy

while in 2010 when with Caisse, his best finish was 38th in Vuelta a Rioja
Bartali

So, let me get this right ... Cobo with stage wins in the Vuelta and TdF, podiums in the Vuelta Castilla y Leon and Vuelta Ciclista al País Vasco (won) and top 10s in LBL and Lombardy is putting in an unbelievable performance whilst a few seconds back on GC we have Froome who's never won anything other than a second string race in Africa?  I'm no fan of Cobo, but there's only one thing that's unbelievable here IMO.

Just when we had all the talk of a clean peloton at the TdF, we get this sham.  Cobo's laughable, Froome performance questionable.  At least Wiggins Mollema etc looked credible yesterday - fair play to them.
SlowRower

Re Wiggo, on yesterday's stage he looked somewhat overgeared as he started struggling on the really steep pitch circa 3k from the top. Everyone else bar Cobo looked overgeared as well, though not as much.

Cobo, on the other hand, was spinning relatively easily, despite not moving that much faster on the grand scale of things.

I've read elsewhere that Cobo was on a 34*32, with most of the rest on a 34*28, with Wiggo stuck on a 36*28 due to riding on an eliptical front ring (by choice) that doesn't come smaller than a 36. To my untutored eye, given that he has a cadence well into three figures in the pursuit, Wiggo would have been better off with a lower, albeit circular front ring.

Would gear choices typically be made by the rider or the team, and are lowest gears simply dictated by what the supplier in question can provide? e.g. SRAM has a production 34*32 set up, whereas Shimano doesn't go lower than a 34*28 without going down the triple route. Do such constraints apply to the pros? Presumably not, as even the Shimano shod teams have the option of a 30*28 bottom gear via a triple. (Not the "done thing", perhaps, but better than doing a track-stand when defending the leader's jersey!) I have to confess that I don't know what all the runners and riders yesterday had in terms of Simano, SRAM etc gears. I assume the Sky mob have Shimano on their Dogmas.

If the internet is to be believed, then SRAM's road-bike cassette with the 32 cog was inspired by Berto's request in 2008 for a lower gear than normal prior to the Giro stage 16 mountain TT. His mechanics and SRAM technicains cobbled him a 34*30 bottom gear by cannibalising a SRAM mountain bike set-up! Sounds a bit like the A-Team to me, but even so, the benefits of gear ratios typically associated with the feeble end of the Weekend Warrior market for very steep GT climbs should have been well known.

Overall, it's odd that Sky, with its attention to detail, sent their man out on a gear that he couldn't turn at the vital moment.
Biosphere

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
smarauder68 wrote:
Far as I'm concerned Froome has been robbed of a GT win...robbed by his allegience to Wiggins and robbed by an obviously doped to his gils Cobo...




I wouldn't use the language SM uses and I wouldn't get into the doping half of the equation, but Froome being Wiggin's donkey may have been a mistake in hindsight. After the ITT he was in the stronger position and still is now despite doing a lot of work for Wiggins. Had he been the protected rider for the last few days . . .

Of course if Froome was still the leader now, then I'd be sitting here typing that it was heading towards the most absurd GT result I could recall and wondering what it all meant.

As a disclaimer I only saw yesterday's stage so I may have missed something in the previous few days.

Interesting observation on gearing.
SlowRower

Biosphere wrote:
I wouldn't use the language SM uses...but Froome being Wiggin's donkey may have been a mistake in hindsight.


"Robbed by his allegiance to Wiggins" was an odd comment. Wiggo is the team leader, and everyone else rides for the team leader unless they are so good they can dictate their own terms and go "off-message". Froome knew the score in advance.

Whether it was a mistake by Sky is an entirely different question. I would think that if both Wiggo and Froome were capable of winning, Wiggo would be much better from a marketing viewpoint (triple OG champ, well known name etc. as opposed to some bloke from Kenya who no-one's heard of) for Sky, so it made sense to protect him. Wiggo winning = big publicity. Froome winning = less publicity, but still better than Cobo winning, one assumes!

It was noticeable, though, that when Wiggins did lose ground, a new plan - ie Froome get to the finish asap - was quickly implemented. I assume this was the official plan, as Wiggo did not cross the line looking like a man who hard a score to settle with a disloyal team-mate.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
... some bloke from Kenya who no-one's heard of.


Is it really just me that finds it peculiar that this guy is a gnats whisker from winning a GT???  We can talk doping, gear ratios, enhanced training or whatever, but isn't it 'surprising' that baring a disaster this guy will be the (joint) best placed 'British' rider in a GT ever having never won a race of any significance in his life?  Talk about elephants in the room!
Biosphere

SlowRower wrote:
It was noticeable, though, that when Wiggins did lose ground, a new plan - ie Froome get to the finish asap - was quickly implemented. I assume this was the official plan, as Wiggo did not cross the line looking like a man who hard a score to settle with a disloyal team-mate.


That was probably too late for the new plan though. I think Froome was being a team player throughout, so I'm just pointing out with hindsight that the team may have had a better option. I know it's a wonderful thing . . .

SlowRower wrote:
Whether it was a mistake by Sky is an entirely different question. I would think that if both Wiggo and Froome were capable of winning, Wiggo would be much better from a marketing viewpoint (triple OG champ, well known name etc. as opposed to some bloke from Kenya who no-one's heard of) for Sky, so it made sense to protect him. Wiggo winning = big publicity. Froome winning = less publicity, but still better than Cobo winning, one assumes!


I will wonder though what Sky the sponsors game plan here is? It's not like they need any more brand awareness/publicity, so is it part of a longer term ambition to take cycling PPV?
Biosphere

Bartali wrote:
Is it really just me that finds it peculiar that this guy is a gnats whisker from winning a GT???. . .


Where I come from we say gnat's cock and the psychoanalysts have a field day postulating self hatred Wink

Getting back to your question, I mentioned absurd.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
... some bloke from Kenya who no-one's heard of.


Is it really just me that finds it peculiar that this guy is a gnats whisker from winning a GT???  We can talk doping, gear ratios, enhanced training or whatever, but isn't it 'surprising' that baring a disaster this guy will be the (joint) best placed 'British' rider in a GT ever having never won a race of any significance in his life?


No and yes, respectively!
SlowRower

Biosphere wrote:
That was probably too late for the new plan though. I think Froome was being a team player throughout, so I'm just pointing out with hindsight that the team may have had a better option. I know it's a wonderful thing . . .


Agreed. It was hard to see what happened on the road as the TV highlights switched away from the demise of Wiggo to focus on Cobo approaching the finish, but Sky must have had "Plan B" already formulated that involved Froome explicitly not waiting for Wiggo, reflecting the reality of the fine margin between Wiggo and Froome. I've seen plenty of other teams dithering or sacrificing GC contenders to support the nominated leader in an act of futility when said nominated leader fatally falters.
gerry12ie

Its worth pointing out that going into the last few days of a GT that the top three are the probably the lightest raced of the whole field and haven't really turned a pedal in anger all summer.

Yes, there should be discussion about Sky but Cobo's performance yesterday was a relic - a particularly nasty one that I hoped we had seen the back of.
hengispod

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
... some bloke from Kenya who no-one's heard of.


Is it really just me that finds it peculiar that this guy is a gnats whisker from winning a GT???  We can talk doping, gear ratios, enhanced training or whatever, but isn't it 'surprising' that baring a disaster this guy will be the (joint) best placed 'British' rider in a GT ever having never won a race of any significance in his life?  Talk about elephants in the room!


surprising .....of course. but give the guy some credit, as far as i know, he is at the beginning of his career.
therefore, it was hard to say potentially how good he was going to be.
on this evidence, very good indeed.
geraint thomas looked to be the next allrounder/gc rider for sky, and still might be. he must be wondering where he now stands in the team pecking order.
i'm interested in how dowsett goes over the next few years too.
Mrs John Murphy

gerry12ie wrote:
Its worth pointing out that going into the last few days of a GT that the top three are the probably the lightest raced of the whole field and haven't really turned a pedal in anger all summer.

Yes, there should be discussion about Sky but Cobo's performance yesterday was a relic - a particularly nasty one that I hoped we had seen the back of.


This whole Vuelta has been a relic of the bad old days - donkey's turning into race horses, TTers climbing like Pantani and climbers learning how to TT.

And with the Radioshack-Leopard merger the whole sport is just fucking shit at the moment.
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
This whole Vuelta has been a relic of the bad old days - donkey's turning into race horses, TTers climbing like Pantani and climbers learning how to TT.


No-one's climbing like Pantani, though - not even the established climbers. From what I can deduce from reading round, power levels are significantly down on those in the bad old days. i.e. "high 5s" on the watts/kg scale on climbs where in the EPO/Armstrong days "mid 6s" would be observed.
Boogerd_Fan

I can believe Cobo’s ride this weekend. He’s got previous climbing pedigree (doped or not), and he was spinning lower gears than the rest. His TT result last week is a big joke though, same as Froome’s. Was there a freak tailwind when they were on the course?
Bartali

I agree - Cobo does have pedigree albiet rooted in the bad old days of Millar's SD team.

I worry more about Froome than Cobo because Geox is arguably a lost cause whereas Sky is supoosed to be the beacon of a clean future.

Apparently Cobo was kicking out 6.2w/kg and beat Berties supposed 'supercharged' time to becone third fastest - only beaten by our old freind Heras.
Slapshot 3

Bartali wrote:

Apparently Cobo was kicking out 6.2w/kg and beat Berties supposed 'supercharged' time to becone third fastest - only beaten by our old freind Heras.


I've read 6.4w/kg somewhere for the last 5km......
HuwB

Froome's performance is integral to any debate on Cobo.
How do go about trying to convince those who think Cobo is dirty, while Froome is clean, to think again?

Froome has put in a huge effort over 2 weeks for Wiggins, while Cobo has ridden as the protected rider. Factor that into the time statistics (26/7 seconds slower over the final 6km) and it either adds a further question mark over Froome, or makes Cobo's performance more credible.

Nibali? IMO Just hasn't got his race prep quite right and he's lacking last year's edge.
Bartali

I fully agree Huw on all counts.
Nolte

HuwB wrote:

Nibali? IMO Just hasn't got his race prep quite right and he's lacking last year's edge.


i was thinking today about the top 10 in the Giro.

the pick of the results from the top 10 of the Giro since the Giro have been Contador's 5th overall in the Tour, Kruswijk's 3rd in Switzerland, Siutsov's 8th in Dauphine, Rujano's 9th in Colombia, Menchov's 5th in Austria and Gadret's 7th in de l'Ain

my looking at cqranking.com indicates that joaquim rodriquez is the only rider in the top 10 of the giro to have won anything since.

maybe the giro was too hard?
SlowRower

Slapshot 3 wrote:
Bartali wrote:

Apparently Cobo was kicking out 6.2w/kg and beat Berties supposed 'supercharged' time to becone third fastest - only beaten by our old freind Heras.


I've read 6.4w/kg somewhere for the last 5km......


The most up to date estimate in the CN Clinic is 6.1w/kg +/- 0.1w/kg for Cobo's power for the part of the ascent that went from 702m altitude to the top of the climb at 1570m altitude.

This was over a duration of 28:30.

Given the following:
i) It was a relatively short and easy stage up to the final climb by pro standards;
ii) 5.8 w/kg over 40 minutes in a GT was achievable pre EPO; and
iii) The sustainable power over 30 minutes is likely to be 2 or 3% higher than over 40 minutes

I'm going to stick my neck out and conclude that Cobo's efforts are at the almost credible end of the scale. (In contrast, Ricco and Pieopli were apparently at 6.5 watts/kg on the Hautacam in 2008, which has pretty much the same vital statistics as ADH.) Thus, Wiggo, being a fair bit slower than Cobo definitely falls into the believable category. (Substitute JRod for Cobo and this was my conclusion in the Dauphine as well, if memory serves. JRod might have been a bit dodgier.) No further comment on Froome.

Caveat - There are other sets of numbers out there and I'll admit that there is most likely a (sub)conscious desire on my behalf to conclude that Wiggo is clean!
Guiness

SlowRower wrote:


Caveat - There are other sets of numbers out there and I'll admit that there is most likely a (sub)conscious desire on my behalf to conclude that Wiggo is clean!


Very Happy

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID...rd-doubts-Cobos-authenticity.aspx

Interesting to see the relative lack of pain on his face on the climb, compared to his pursuers.

IMO that it is very difficult to analyse performances in week three of a grand tour - even with all the data / test results to hand. Which we don't have. At this stage in the race everyone is suffering. But some riders get relatively stronger. Others get weaker.
hengispod

is there much discussion about cobo's performance in spain?
SlowRower

Guiness wrote:
Interesting to see the relative lack of pain on his face on the climb, compared to his pursuers.


Indeed, but the non-grimace actually takes less energy and most importantly of all, winning is never as painful as losing. Smile
Fontfroide

SlowRower wrote:
Guiness wrote:
Interesting to see the relative lack of pain on his face on the climb, compared to his pursuers.


Indeed, but the non-grimace actually takes less energy and most importantly of all, winning is never as painful as losing. Smile


One reason, among others, might be that he used a small gear, unlike Wiggins.  Us old cyclos could have told Sky a thing or two.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
Us old cyclos could have told Sky a thing or two.


Indeed. Most notably that on a steep climb, when you're at your limits, you can never have too low a gear!
Mrs John Murphy

SlowRower wrote:
Guiness wrote:
Interesting to see the relative lack of pain on his face on the climb, compared to his pursuers.


Indeed, but the non-grimace actually takes less energy and most importantly of all, winning is never as painful as losing. Smile


You mean like clean riders like Kohl did.

The idea that a rider showing pain = clean is clearly nonsense.
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
Guiness wrote:
Interesting to see the relative lack of pain on his face on the climb, compared to his pursuers.


Indeed, but the non-grimace actually takes less energy and most importantly of all, winning is never as painful as losing. Smile


You mean like clean riders like Kohl did.

The idea that a rider showing pain = clean is clearly nonsense.


I wasn't suggesting a test for cleanliness based on facial expressions.

The "1000 mile stare" can be practiced, and is slightly more energy efficient than the grimace, despite the grimace being the natural course of action when in pain. There are plenty of "natural" responses to pain in sport that are counter-productive (e.g. tensing the shoulders when sprinting or over-striding when doing distance running) and for which the more efficient alternative can be practiced. Facial expressions are most likely at the bottom of the scale for where to concentrate your efforts in such re-training, though!

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