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Biosphere

Vuelta 2015, Stages 1-5: An Andalusian Depart, 22nd-26th Aug

Will figure out what the first few stages are later when I'm not on train, but it looks like the short and straightforward TTT is actually a cyclocross novelty stage!

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08...anisers-over-ttt-course-concerns/
gerry12ie

Jeux sans frontieres Wink

Astana will play their joker
HuwB

The UCI are going to meet with the ASO bods to................probably give the course their seal of approval. Razz

Stage 1:
Map:


Profile:


The start:


The controversial bits:


Fontfroide

There is much I do not understand about the decision-making process for the Vuelta.  For any Grand Tour for that matter.  The question seems to be did the guys who made up the route ever see the route, and if they did, was there a boardwalk and a sandy bit when they did.  If they did, then they are weird guys, if they didn't then they are irresponsible.  Of course it could have been even worse, fairly fine loose gravel about and inch or two deep.  On a curve.  At least those bits are straight.   Rolling Eyes

Looking again at the start, with the rocky bits on both since of the rough cement.  You really do not want to crash there, I hope the riders will be briefed.  I can't imagine a road much more dangerous.  Maybe if there were a sheer cliff and no road furniture to bounce off on one side, with the pointy rocks on the other.  And the camber toward the cliff.  With oil spills.  At least there are not oil spills on that route.   Laughing
Bartali

A storm in a teacup from the same people who eulogise Paris Roubaix!
gerry12ie

Bartali wrote:
A storm in a teacup from the same people who eulogise Paris Roubaix!


Aye but P-R ain't a TTT Wink
Fontfroide

Bartali wrote:
A storm in a teacup from the same people who eulogise Paris Roubaix!


I don't mind watching PR but I surely would not want to ride it really fast in a big group.
Bartali

gerry12ie wrote:
Bartali wrote:
A storm in a teacup from the same people who eulogise Paris Roubaix!


Aye but P-R ain't a TTT Wink


Yup ... it's not a nice orderly regulated ride like a TT ... its a war with attacks and competitors speeding up and slowing down and taking your line.  Just say in .... it's unusual and unpredictable, but hardly worthy of the whining from the pro ranks.

IMO its symptomatic of the 'new' world of overly controlled races just like power meters and race radio etc ...
Bartali

gerry12ie wrote:


Aye but P-R ain't a TTT Wink


Agreed ... and beach volleyball isn't proper volleyball, but its good to watch when the ladies play it Wink
gerry12ie

Bartali wrote:
gerry12ie wrote:


Aye but P-R ain't a TTT Wink


Agreed ... and beach volleyball isn't proper volleyball, but its good to watch when the ladies play it Wink


Very Happy  Wink
Nolte

I don't know.

Would it be safer if the ttt became an individual test ala opening stage of tirreno adriatico?
ventoux

they've decided to neutralise it, although there's still a stage win (and presumably a jersey) on offer


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/v...eutralised-after-safety-concerns/
Biosphere

If it's neutralized, then they might as well ride Choppers, Penny Farthings and so on as part of the spectacle. Maybe the riders could arrive for the presentation tonight in clown cars Wink

Being serious I think it's probably the right decision based on the photos I've seen.
HuwB

So, a team time trial when the time doesn't count?
That's as novel a ruling as this parcour.
Bartali

Quote:
Vuelta news: Stage 11 also to be neutralised amid safety concerns.  On Friday several riders, including Tour de France winner Chris Froome (Team Sky) published photographs on Twitter of the profile of stage 11 and pointed out several potentially dangerous points along the course including numerous descents. Froome's team mate Nicolas Roche also raised concerns noting that "some of these descents are very steep and you need very good brakes to slow you down ... sometimes you even have to put your feet down to so you don't go over 10mph."  Race organisers later announced that in view of the fact that today's peloton are a bunch of pansies, they had decided to neutralise the stage 11.  Talks are continuing over night with one suggestion being that the whole race should be done indoors on turbo trainers to minimise the inherent danger in riding bikes.
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Quote:
Vuelta news: Stage 11 also to be neutralised amid safety concerns.  On Friday several riders, including Tour de France winner Chris Froome (Team Sky) published photographs on Twitter of the profile of stage 11 and pointed out several potentially dangerous points along the course including numerous descents. Froome's team mate Nicolas Roche also raised concerns noting that "some of these descents are very steep and you need very good brakes to slow you down ... sometimes you even have to put your feet down to so you don't go over 10mph."  Race organisers later announced that in view of the fact that today's peloton are a bunch of pansies, they had decided to neutralise the stage 11.  Talks are continuing over night with one suggestion being that the whole race should be done indoors on turbo trainers to minimise the inherent danger in riding bikes.


As usual,  Sky placed well and truly in front of the fan, for all the stupid shit that inevitably flies after such a decision.
Any so called humour is wearing pretty thin.
The first bloke that got all hot under the twitter collar about this was Movistar rider Rory Sutherland. Of course they aren't placed in the same firing line.
Maybe this had given cause for concern:

https://instagram.com/p/2UiIRWnczm/

At least Cancellara has realised that the less said on twitter, the better.
Bartali

Shocking clip Huw  Shocked

FWIW - the references to Froome and Roche were simple because I mirrored the the Cyclingnews text in the article that quoted them both.  No anti-sky narrative or offence intended.

In truth, its hard to understand why anyone would plan a TTT on a beach ... but, I am also genuinely bemused that the same folk who descend dangerous mountains in excess of 100kmh and revel in the slippy dangerous cobbles of PR find 7.5km of beach promenade such a no no. Regard for the riders is a great thing of course, but I also think it is sometimes a convenient excuse for DSs who increasingly seem to prefer a 'controlled' peloton.
Bartali

So what's changed? How could a UCI commissaire and a representative of the Spanish riders’ association get it so wrong?

Quote:
However, other reports state that six weeks ago, a UCI commissaire came with a representative of the Spanish riders’ association to reconnoitre the course and gave it the green light. Yet other journalists believe that the detailed route has been available for checking out since January - when the entire Vuelta route was published.
Nolte

so with the stage neutralised, how many minutes down will the overall contenders come down?
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Shocking clip Huw  Shocked

FWIW - the references to Froome and Roche were simple because I mirrored the the Cyclingnews text in the article that quoted them both.  No anti-sky narrative or offence intended.

In truth, its hard to understand why anyone would plan a TTT on a beach ... but, I am also genuinely bemused that the same folk who descend dangerous mountains in excess of 100kmh and revel in the slippy dangerous cobbles of PR find 7.5km of beach promenade such a no no. Regard for the riders is a great thing of course, but I also think it is sometimes a convenient excuse for DSs who increasingly seem to prefer a 'controlled' peloton.


None taken.
It's just the usual sources and suspects sounding a bit stale.
Maybe it's because it seems to me with hols etc, that the Tour only just finished and I try never to watch repeats.
Nolte

looking at the pro cycling magazine/cyclingnews description, the team time trial seemed like a pleasurable jaunt through the beeches of marbella, which for people who've been to marbella would find it a rarity Wink

Quote:
It had been suggested that the race would open with a prologue time trial. But, after some input from Cofidis’s local star Luis Ángel Maté, the organisers decided to stick with their preference for a team test.

The route will follow the beach-side promenade that links the glitzy resorts. Starting on the breakwater at Puerto Banús, to which the teams will be ferried on launches, the riders will sweep onto the seafront, cross the Rio Verde on a temporary bridge and hurtle towards the finish on the Playa de la Venus. The TTT’s difficulty stems from the narrowness of the promenade and the different surfaces, including wood, marble and cobbles. Thankfully, there’s little chance of rain.

link - http://www.cyclingnews.com/vuelta-a-espana/stage-1/

though it is an idea, france has paris-roubaix, italy has strada bianchi, belgium has vlaandereren bergs so why not spain start a one day race including sections of beaches?
kathy

FP thread here.

http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/about5289.html

They are becoming a load of wimps!   I could suggest a TTT course in Asturias (a recommended cycle path), which has a stony unmade surface, is no more than a metre wide in places, is about 5 metres above the river at one side (with rocks), and at one point has a step down of about 50cm on a bend.  (I will admit that I get off the bike and walk at that last point  Laughing  Laughing )
HuwB

Live now.

Even if you throw safety out of the window, it's impossible to ride a TTT on such a narrow course.
What were they thinking?
Nolte

It's a real split in the teams between those who want to try get the leaders jersey as it may be their one chance and those looking to survive. Ag2r and cannondale were those going around for the spin

That was part of my thinking in going for lotto nl.

Iam I think is another team that will go for it.
Nolte

It seems if you want to win, finish while Eurosport are on an ad. Missed both orica and now tinkoff
ventoux

so why are the teams that aren't trying still out there on full TT bikes..... surely if safety is of the essence they'd be tootling around on road bikes?
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
Live now.

Even if you throw safety out of the window, it's impossible to ride a TTT on such a narrow course.
What were they thinking?


I don't agree Huw ... they are riding a TTT on this narrow course.  What they can't do is ride a typical TTT ... but who says it has to be a typical TTT? Chapeau to BMC for riding it properly.  Boo to Astana for cruising round.
Nolte

ventoux wrote:
so why are the teams that aren't trying still out there on full TT bikes..... surely if safety is of the essence they'd be tootling around on road bikes?


It might be "we brought the tt bikes with us, we might as well use them"
ventoux

Nolte wrote:
ventoux wrote:
so why are the teams that aren't trying still out there on full TT bikes..... surely if safety is of the essence they'd be tootling around on road bikes?


It might be "we brought the tt bikes with us, we might as well use them"


sure, but if they really believed this course was so dangerous they wouldn't have wanted to take any risks - they could have dredged up some 'cross bikes from somewhere.....  Wink
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Live now.

Even if you throw safety out of the window, it's impossible to ride a TTT on such a narrow course.
What were they thinking?


I don't agree Huw ... they are riding a TTT on this narrow course.  What they can't do is ride a typical TTT ... but who says it has to be a typical TTT? Chapeau to BMC for riding it properly.  Boo to Astana for cruising round.


Eh?
They immediately dumped their GC guys and left the domestiques go full gas.
That ain't riding it properly in my book.
Bartali

Its adapting to the situation but still making a 'race' of it ... and ultimately taking the jersey.  I don't blame Astana, Sky and some others  for the way they rode ... the late rule change made it a farce.  But, BMC, Saxo, etc at least 'raced' the course with 5+ men each and without a hint of a fall.
Boogerd_Fan

BMC tactic was a good adaptation to the change in the stages circumstance. One other teams could have tried themselves if they had bit more imagination.

Sagan in green and Velits in red. Good day for slovaks.

I thought the course was far too narrow. If they had to make most of it... why didnt they choose something a bit wider?

The final turn over some drainage down to finish and a hardstop looked really well thought out !!
Bartali

... and all UCI approved apparently.  While I think they should have raced it ... I think the design is a disgrace and whoever signed it off - if indeed someone did - then they should be fired IMO.
HuwB

Stage 2 Map:-


Profile:-


Final Kms:-
gerry12ie

It's Paris-Dakar Wink
gerry12ie

Touch of deja-vu watching Katusha and Movistar ride away from a GC favourite in trouble - they did the same to Contador in the Giro
Nolte

An interesting finale to the stage. Quintana dropped by chavez , dumoulin and Roche.
Bartali

gerry12ie wrote:
Touch of deja-vu watching Katusha and Movistar ride away from a GC favourite in trouble - they did the same to Contador in the Giro


Painful though it was for me to watch, it's happened to Movistar (Valverde) often enough so it's hard to have too many complaints.  What I can't understand is why it took so long to source nibs a bike.  Shocking  Shocked

Strange finish though from the perspective of the favourites ...
Bartali

So Nibs is out ...!!!  Rules is rules ....
Nolte

Was it caught on Eurosport or was it on an ad break?

I recall Kirby mealntioning it saying that it helped nibali drop the other riders in his group at the time but I might have missed it by sorting socks

-
Bit more info on this http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08...xtended-tow-from-astana-team-car/
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
So Nibs is out ...!!!  Rules is rules ....


What is this I am now reading?
Just watched the stage. Was going to say what a weird finish it was, but not much else to comment upon.
I now have to nip off to read what has happened since.

That didn't take long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClwG4DD7sbY&feature=youtu.be

Silly boy.
mazda

When they said "took a tow from the team car" I assumed they meant in the slipstream. But no !
If this footage is correct it is hardly subtle stuff.
Team car comes up alongside and then accelerates and hey presto Nibs has vanished !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8OQfah8h_0&feature=youtu.be&a
Driver of the car has been banned as well.
I wonder what all the riders who had been with Nibali thought ?
Nolte

HuwB wrote:
Bartali wrote:
So Nibs is out ...!!!  Rules is rules ....


What is this I am now reading?
Just watched the stage. Was going to say what a weird finish it was, but not much else to comment upon.
I now have to nip off to read what has happened since.

That didn't take long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClwG4DD7sbY&feature=youtu.be

Silly boy.


Yes really silly
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08...xtended-tow-from-astana-team-car/
HuwB

mazda wrote:
If this footage is correct it is hardly subtle stuff.
Team car comes up alongside and then accelerates and hey presto Nibs has vanished !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8OQfah8h_0&feature=youtu.be&a


Kind of ironic what he said about Froome holding on to cars. Laughing
Bartali

LOL Smile
Boogerd_Fan

That was pretty silly... in a Wacky Races kind of way.

You can see at the front of the rest of the group, they sit up a bit with a WTF moment as Nibs "drives off"  Laughing  Laughing
HuwB

Oh dear:
Quote:
“I saw the video, I know what we did!” added Martinelli.

“It happens in the Tour, I’ve seen it 1000 times. Try to find me an honest person in the peloton. Any sports director would have done the same thing to save their leader."


Hardly confidence inspiring stuff in terms of the "D" word.
Nolte

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
That was pretty silly... in a Wacky Races kind of way.

You can see at the front of the rest of the group, they sit up a bit with a WTF moment as Nibs "drives off"  Laughing  Laughing

Lol :d
Slapshot 3

That's just mental...... Why???
Biosphere

Had me news blackout, watched the TV, was happy for Chaves to be a new face winning a stage and heading a GT, updated the spreadsheet and thought that's it for the day.

Even the Mrs. was flabbergasted when I showed her.

All I can add is that Bart and SR can no longer use being disqualified from a GT for holding on as a metric in the Froome vs Nibali best chops debate Laughing
gerry12ie

Well that's a wow.  I had a nice read and a nap and this comes along.  No arguments having seen the video, and I suppose it makes Astana's sleeping arrangements a lot more straightforward.  Wow.
Bartali

Whilst I have no complaints I am staggered that everyone has no probs with Nibs been disqualified for what has been described as a 100m tow yet so many thought Porte hard done by in the Giro.  Rules is rules ...
gerry12ie

Race Radio puts it well...


Biosphere

Well there wasn't anyone real that could be classified as having been disadvantaged by Porte's action, whereas there's a blatant bunch of riders that are left in his dust today. The fact that he sprints to the head of the bunch to catch his ride suggests premeditation. It went far, far beyond a sticky bottle.

Had it been a sticky bottle, slip streaming or a wheel from a Lampre rider then I'd have said he was shafted.

For sure I would rather he was still there.
Nolte

Biosphere wrote:
Well there wasn't anyone real that could be classified as having been disadvantaged by Porte's action, whereas there's a blatant bunch of riders that are left in his dust today. The fact that he sprints to the head of the bunch to catch his ride suggests premeditation. It went far, far beyond a sticky bottle.

Had it been a sticky bottle, slip streaming or a wheel from a Lampre rider then I'd have said he was shafted.

For sure I would rather he was still there.


He grabs the car and its zoom, goodbye group he was with. The biggest is just how blatant it was.

I'm interested how the TV in the video where he's quickly out of helicopter shot And then they cut to a cantering Sagan seconds later.
berck

Looked pretty blatant to me too. It's too bad, I like the guy and wish he could have continued. Unfortunately, when you chose to break rules, you have to suffer from the consequences too.
Fontfroide

Caught.  Busted.  Bit of a pity it was so blatant and there was a camera.  Imagine it must happen at the back often enough.  But not usually with a GC guy at the front.

Glad I didn't put him on many of my teams though.  I guess I might be one of those fans who feels robbed by him being disqualified.
HuwB

In terms of the race, it is such a disappointment to have Nibali depart so early.
He was the one GC rider who could be relied upon to think, act and attack outside the box.
A hefty time penalty would have sufficed, imo, but since the Porte incident at the Giro put the rule enforcers on the spot, it's hardly surprising that they now stick to the letter of the law.
HuwB

Anyhow, moving on.
Stage 3:
Map:-


Profile:-


Climb:-


Final kms:-
Biosphere

Nibali speaks:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/n...ned-by-astana-at-vuelta-a-espana/
gerry12ie

Simple innit, blame a first-year pro and the rest of the team...

Quote:
Nibali was angry and disappointed after the crash according to La Gazzetta dello Sport, blaming both Caleb Ewan and his Astana team. He was left waiting in the road for a new bike and suggested none of his teammates waited for him at the back of the peloton when he got back on.

“The crash was the fault of Caleb Ewan who did a crazy, aggressive move. Look at the video and you can understand why riders got hurt. Yet he’s still in the race,” Gazzetta dello Sport report Nibali as saying. “I went looking for him while I was waiting for a new bike but fortunately for him he’d already got going. I wanted to speak to him…”

After the crash Nibali was seen standing in the road waiting for a new bike, as most other riders quickly got going again.

“It’s fair to say that things didn’t go right. Everyone saw how long I had to wait,” he said.

“Everybody was shouting in the radio: Aru, Aru, Aru…. Did you see who eventually gave me a bike? Martinelli. And how much time passed before I could start chasing? I made a mistake but I would perhaps have gone home anyway. What was the point in staying?”

“As I said, I was left abandoned. Even if I was feeling good. I was hoping to get through the first week without losing a lot of time. It’s frustrating that I’m going home without being able to demonstrate anything. But I’ve got to keep my mouth shut.”


I couldn't help but notice the headline of one of the related CN articles - 'Ignorance of Vuelta a España route is bliss for Nibali'.  

Quote:
"I don’t know the road book, just like in 2010. Not a bit, and I’m not worried about it,” Nibali told a press conference in Marbella ahead of the Vuelta. “I’m confident because I finished the Tour de France in good form and my feelings were good while I was training at Sestriere. Knowing the route is important, sure, but it's better to live day by day.”


You never know, reading the road book might extend your GT participation bt another day or two... Wink
Boogerd_Fan

He'll be back.. World Championships and Lombardy?

One thing is unquestionable - Nibs is versatile.. over different parcours, race situaitons and holding side of team cars.

Despite the debacle about the pull @ 15km out.. he was still distanced on the final climb anyway, so a bit irrelevant
Bartali

Biosphere wrote:
Well there wasn't anyone real that could be classified as having been disadvantaged by Porte's action ...


Porte took an advantage which means every other GC rider was disadvantaged.  Same here ... Nibs 'grabbed' an advantage which at least in theory meant he finished closer to the other GC riders ... so their lead on Nibs was smaller ... so they were disadvantaged.  Both cases are similar because without the attack Porte/Nibs and everyone else would have been on the same footing.  But that's racing.

Quote:
Despite the debacle about the pull @ 15km out.. he was still distanced on the final climb anyway, so a bit irrelevant
 To add a bit of perspective, he only took a tow for 100-150m so it was still a long chase back on to a peloton that was in full race mode.  Is it any wonder he was distanced on the final climb.
mazda

Have Astana stated why they actually did it ?
It clearly wasn't just a "normal tow" to give him a rest.
Were his 2 team mates just up the road and they didn't want to tow all the other riders ?
Or are they correct that this kind of high speed boost happens all the time ?

Also, does omerta apply here - would any of the other riders he was with have said anything ?

I'm not sure that comparing with Portegate is the best analogy. Most members of Joe Public would say Porte didn't do anything wrong (except, with hindsight, break the rules).
Whereas for this I'd suggest the opposite, everyone can see and understand what took place.
But the severity of the punishment could be argued.
When was the last time something similar was punished (or not punished) ?
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Biosphere wrote:
Well there wasn't anyone real that could be classified as having been disadvantaged by Porte's action ...


Porte took an advantage which means every other GC rider was disadvantaged.  Same here ... Nibs 'grabbed' an advantage which at least in theory meant he finished closer to the other GC riders ... so their lead on Nibs was smaller ... so they were disadvantaged.  Both cases are similar because without the attack Porte/Nibs and everyone else would have been on the same footing.  But that's racing.

Despite the debacle about the pull @ 15km out.. he was still distanced on the final climb anyway, so a bit irrelevant.  To add a bit of perspective, he only took a tow for 100-150m so it was still a long chase back on to a peloton that was in full race mode.  Is it any wonder he was distanced on the final climb.


Try as I might, I just can't view the two incidents in the same light.
I think that is reflected by the different punishments.
Imo, both were extremely harsh, but ultimately as stated in the rules.


As too how far he was towed, estimates vary from the 100 metres that Astana claim to from 1'-30" down to within sniffing distance of the rear team car exhaust.
Guess we'll never know for sure.
gerry12ie

mazda wrote:
Have Astana stated why they actually did it ?
It clearly wasn't just a "normal tow" to give him a rest.
Were his 2 team mates just up the road and they didn't want to tow all the other riders ?
Or are they correct that this kind of high speed boost happens all the time ?

Also, does omerta apply here - would any of the other riders he was with have said anything ?

I'm not sure that comparing with Portegate is the best analogy. Most members of Joe Public would say Porte didn't do anything wrong (except, with hindsight, break the rules).
Whereas for this I'd suggest the opposite, everyone can see and understand what took place.
But the severity of the punishment could be argued.
When was the last time something similar was punished (or not punished)
?


Much smaller fry I guess, but in this years Rás the race leader Reda was thrown out for the same offence
gerry12ie

Ewan says it wasn't him...

Quote:
“It’s not very nice. If he’s going to say something, he should get the story straight before he says it because it’s unfair on me. I think a lot of people will read that and think that I caused the crash but like I said, I was at the back of the bunch, so I had nothing to do with the crash. It’s not very nice,” Ewan said.

“If he has a problem with me or he thinks I did it, he should come and clear things up with me first instead of going to the media and saying ‘Caleb did this’. I think if you’re going to make a big call like that, saying that someone a crash like that, you should get your story straight first.”
mazda

Bouhanni and Bennati in a small crash.
Not good for Nacer after yesterday's bump on the knee.
He's got back to the peloton though.
HuwB

gerry12ie wrote:
Ewan says it wasn't him...

Quote:
“It’s not very nice. If he’s going to say something, he should get the story straight before he says it because it’s unfair on me. I think a lot of people will read that and think that I caused the crash but like I said, I was at the back of the bunch, so I had nothing to do with the crash. It’s not very nice,” Ewan said.

“If he has a problem with me or he thinks I did it, he should come and clear things up with me first instead of going to the media and saying ‘Caleb did this’. I think if you’re going to make a big call like that, saying that someone a crash like that, you should get your story straight first.”


When have we heard that before? Wink

Today's stage is a very low key affair. Very tranquillo and rather slow going.
HuwB

Sagan in Shock Not Second Place Finish. Smile
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
Try as I might, I just can't view the two incidents in the same light.
I think that is reflected by the different punishments.
Imo, both were extremely harsh, but ultimately as stated in the rules.

Both were unfortunate enough to be caught in a crash at the pointy end of the race.  Both were losing time.  Both broke the rules in the heat of the moment.  Both received an advantage in that they finished closer to their GC competition that they might have done.  Both were punished by strict adherence to the rules.  

I have no problem with adherence to the rules ... I am just bemused how an unfair advantage received/taken by Porte appears difficult to comprehend whereas the unfair advantage taken by Nibali is clear.

I'm equally bemused that Millar agrees that this happens all the time, but argues that Nibali should be punished because he pulled away from a (slow) group rather than took a pull to catch a group.  So ... it would have been fine if Nibs had been a lone faller and took a tow all the way back to the lead group , but because there were many fallers he has to stick with the slower riders who have no incentive to get back on.  Some logic that David!!
Nolte

gerry12ie wrote:
mazda wrote:
Have Astana stated why they actually did it ?
It clearly wasn't just a "normal tow" to give him a rest.
Were his 2 team mates just up the road and they didn't want to tow all the other riders ?
Or are they correct that this kind of high speed boost happens all the time ?

Also, does omerta apply here - would any of the other riders he was with have said anything ?

I'm not sure that comparing with Portegate is the best analogy. Most members of Joe Public would say Porte didn't do anything wrong (except, with hindsight, break the rules).
Whereas for this I'd suggest the opposite, everyone can see and understand what took place.
But the severity of the punishment could be argued.
When was the last time something similar was punished (or not punished)
?


Much smaller fry I guess, but in this years Rás the race leader Reda was thrown out for the same offence


uci regulations - http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document /News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20150701-E_English.pdf

page 16

Quote:
UCI
CYCLING REGULATIONS
E
0
7
1
5
D
ISCIPLINE AND
P
ROCEDURES
16
18.
Rider holding on to his team’s vehicle:
Rider holding on to some other motor vehicle:
Rider: elimination and 200
Team Manager: elimination and 200
Team: exclusion of the vehicle for the duration of the race
without the possibility of replacement
Rider: elimination and 200
Other licence
-
holder
responsible for the vehicle: elimination
and 200
If the vehicle is that of another team: elimination of the team
manager of that team and exclusion of the vehicle for the
duration of the race without the possibility of replacement
Rider: elimination and 10
0
Team Manager: elimination and 100
Team: exclusion of the vehicle for the duration of the race
without the possibility of replacement
Rider: elimination and 100
Other licence
-
holder responsible for the vehicle: elimination
and 100
If the vehicle is that o
f another team: elimination of the team
manager of that team and exclusion of the vehicle for the
duration of the race without the possibility of replacement
Bartali

Super ... so how come Bouhanni escapes with a fine for a similar offence?  The sport has no credibility unless the rules are enforced.  We've seen this again and again so it shouldn't be a surprise.
Biosphere

Millar's logic is about the same as mine (for better or worse). I'm not sure why we're bothering to rehash the Giro months later, so my final thoughts . . .

Porte actually had a puncture and was the only one. He got a wheel from one rider beside him instead of another beside him and any advantage is debatable. He and Sky chased under their own steam. He ended up with a significant net disadvantage to everyone else in the race. He didn't gain an advantage on anyone. You may think I'm playing with words, but to put into financial terms as another way of thinking about it, you put the red column against black column and see where you are. Profit and loss.

Nibali was amongst many held by a crash and hitched a blatant ride on his team car to get back to the main bunch. Tonight's ITV review of what happened suggests it was a lot lot more than 100m and he gained a big advantage on dozens and made it back to the main group and so actually even managed to neutralise the situation in terms of a disadvantage.

I don't see much scope for anything other than a disqualification as if that kind of tow is tolerated it will be abused one way or another. They might as well just allow motors in bikes for getting back on terms after an accident if anything goes. A 10 minute penalty means nothing to a green jersey being towed back to the gruppetto. A hundred point penalty means nothing to a domestique being saved for another day of working for a team leader. And so on . . .

My comprehension of what happened now and in May is fine - I just offer my take on it.
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Super ... so how come Bouhanni escapes with a fine for a similar offence?  The sport has no credibility unless the rules are enforced.  We've seen this again and again so it shouldn't be a surprise.


Do you refer to today's stick bottle, not long after he'd crashed?
I think you really are clutching at straws if that's what you mean.


As to the Porte incident.
That was due to a spontaneous gesture from a friend in another team.
Yesterday was blatant and premeditated. Maybe not on Nibali's part but definitely by the DS. So, no, not to be viewed as identical.

Again: No question both broke rules and got the letter of the law.

On a side note, I see that Vincenzo has upset OGE by accusing Caleb Ewan, a first year pro, for causing the crash.
Turns out the young sprinter was not in the vicinity at the time, but at the rear of the bunch. (confirmed by 3rd parties)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/c...on-stage-2-of-the-vuelta-a-espaa/

Shades of Froome and Le Harve............
Bartali

Yes the sticky bottle ... FWIW Millar thought the same as me.  Clutching a straws?  Not at all, I just want the rules upheld.  Anything else just causes problems.  Here's two ...
1) A long sticky bottle gets you thrown out, a short sticky bottle gets you a fine.  How long would Bouhanni have had to hold on to get thrown off?  Another 5 seconds? 10 seconds?

2) Porte - I agree with Huw's analysis - but should we have to judge intention v premeditation?  Absolutely clear in the two examples cited, but that isn't always the case.

Bio ... I agree we should put May to bed, but I just can't get my head round how you can't see that Porte had an advantage.  Whatever the intent, his deficit would have been larger without Clarke's gesture. Even if there was another Sky man there, Clarke got there first (so there's a few seconds). Had they refused Clarke's gesture and taken the Sky wheel that would have taken more seconds debating and getting him out of the way.  Had they not had the extra Sky man in the chase that may well have been a few more seconds.  While he still finished down on the GC group, it is as plain to see that his deficit was reduced by Clarke's well intentioned gesture.

Now I'm not equating the two incidents ... simply saying that they were both very clear breaches of the rules and punish accordingly.
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
On a side note, I see that Vincenzo has upset OGE by accusing Caleb Ewan, a first year pro, for causing the crash.
Turns out the young sprinter was not in the vicinity at the time, but at the rear of the bunch. (confirmed by 3rd parties)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/c...on-stage-2-of-the-vuelta-a-espaa/

Shades of Froome and Le Harve............


Fiery Sicilian nature!!  He should curb it ... bad form in my book. I hope he apologises and eats a large slice of humble pie!
Biosphere

Maybe I'll come round when the Tesco chairman at the AGM tries to use the Porte wheel change as an example as to why shareholders should focus on the modest profit in the fruit and veg department and be happy, instead of worrying about the billions written down elsewhere Wink
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Yes the sticky bottle ... FWIW Millar thought the same as me.  Clutching a straws?  Not at all, I just want the rules upheld.  Anything else just causes problems.  Here's two ...
1) A long sticky bottle gets you thrown out, a short sticky bottle gets you a fine.  How long would Bouhanni have had to hold on to get thrown off?  Another 5 seconds? 10 seconds?


I'll grant you it was a long sticky, but the key word is bottle.
Not a sticky car that then zooms off up the car. Razz

Possibly worth a fine, sure. Maybe he'll get one when such things are released.
HuwB

100CHF fine for Nacer. Wink
Nolte

At the time, bouhanni looked very shaken up at the time, there also didn't seem to be an increase in speed with bouhanni's sticky bottle, I think for nibali, the astana car looked to have floored it.
mazda

Seems to be the difference between rule 18 and rule 37 (Porte was rule Cool.
Rule 18 doesn't seem to have any discretion / sliding scale built into it.
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
I'll grant you it was a long sticky, but the key word is bottle. Not a sticky car that then zooms off up the car. Razz

Possibly worth a fine, sure. Maybe he'll get one when such things are released.


Well the rule posted above says elimination or are we differentiating between holding on to the car and holding on to the bottle? In which case, who knows what Nibs held on to.

As said before, I have no problem with Nibs' elimination ...
Bartali

Nolte wrote:
At the time, bouhanni looked very shaken up at the time, there also didn't seem to be an increase in speed with bouhanni's sticky bottle, I think for nibali, the astana car looked to have floored it.


Not sure of the relevance of either point Nolte?  Is there a get out of jail clause if a rider is shaken? Define shaken?  Or, is there a particular speed that we have to look out for?  

I'm not equating the two events, I'm just looking for clarity in the rules.
Bartali

mazda wrote:
Seems to be the difference between rule 18 and rule 37.
Rule 18 doesn't seem to have any discretion / sliding scale built into it.


Ah got it - so holding on to a car and holding on to a bidon are different offences and Bouhanni has been fined in line with the rules.  That's good.

So the question is simply why Nibs was stupid enough to hold on to the car if thats what he did, rather than the bottle!  Crazy rules.

What about Rule 21 - A fine of 1000CHF for follower leaning out or holding supplies out of vehicle.  Isn't that what they do all the time ... or does the rider have to reach into the car?

I also don't understand why Valverde lost all that time in the 2013(?) TdF when he punctured in the cross wind when he could have sat behind the team car and took a 20 second penalty?
HuwB

Time to change the record, now Bart.

Stage 4:-
Map:-


Profile:-


Final Kms:-
mazda

Mickael Delage (FDJ)
Bert Jan Lindeman (LottoNL-Jumbo)
Nikolas Maes (Etixx-Quick Step)
Jimmy Engoulvent (Europcar)
Kristijan Durasek (Lampre-Merida)
Markel Irizar (Trek Factory Racing)

Have a lead of 12' with 160 km left to go.
OGE leading the peloton.
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
Time to change the record, now Bart.


Sorry ... the needle got stuck there for a while! Wink
HuwB

Valverde, Sagan, Moreno podium in the usual, all action final 500 Vuelta metres.
mr shifter

Bartali wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Time to change the record, now Bart.
Sorry ... the needle got stuck there for a while! Wink
The Headmaster has spoken.  Rolling Eyes

I don't understand a lot of things these days and I used to be a Commissaire. ? (but never a Blazer or Suit, deary me, NO never)
Biosphere

I am struck by how casual the preparation for this race is. Sagan was shocked at the finish, Valverde did his recon on Google Maps this morning. How hard would it be for a Spanish team to send a man down to check out the stages?

I think we might be studying the finishes better in the FP comp Wink
Slapshot 3

Biosphere wrote:
I am struck by how casual the preparation for this race is. Sagan was shocked at the finish, Valverde did his recon on Google Maps this morning. How hard would it be for a Spanish team to send a man down to check out the stages?

I think we might be studying the finishes better in the FP comp Wink


You're not wrong.... lolz.. professionalism in action..!!

Vino having a whinge ...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/n...r-play-in-cycling-says-vinkourov/

Odd wasn't it Astana/Katusha that tried to burn Contador in the Giro - Mortirolo stage??? .... all's fair in love and bike racing Wink
mazda

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/n...r-play-in-cycling-says-vinkourov/
What about the Ben King story ?
Spectators taking his GPS and mounting his bike after his crash.
Appalling.
Biosphere

mazda wrote:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/n...r-play-in-cycling-says-vinkourov/
What about the Ben King story ?
Spectators taking his GPS and mounting his bike after his crash.
Appalling.


I could even see that guy from the helicam and wondering what he was up to Smile

Much like sticky bottles - it's gone on all the time I think. Remember years ago Robbie McEwan having to fend off kids that were trying to wrench the bottles off his bike Laughing

When Cavendish crashed in his first Tour on the first road stage they nicked his Oakleys - and that was in England.
gerry12ie

Biosphere wrote:
I am struck by how casual the preparation for this race is. Sagan was shocked at the finish, Valverde did his recon on Google Maps this morning. How hard would it be for a Spanish team to send a man down to check out the stages?

I think we might be studying the finishes better in the FP comp Wink





Looks like the road book wasn't much help either...
HuwB

Stage 5:-
Map:-


Profile:-


Final Kms:-
mazda

So is that really a 40m rise ? say 5% for 750m.
kathy

Now got a chance to see a stage as it happens.  Had a busy week!  The weather is pretty cool for South of Spain at this time of year.  What is van Poppel complaining about?
Fontfroide

I really enjoyed the last 5k of that race.  My guy didn't win, but congrats if anyone picked Caleb Ewan, beating both Degenkolb and Sagan.  I think that little hill at the end was a little less little than it might have been.  Nice sprint, liked all the trains getting mixed up or not, roundabouts messing up plans.  Sagan popping around the wheels, that guy can handle a bike.
gerry12ie

I really should kick myself for not picking Ewan - OGE are all about GT first weeks

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