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mazda

Vuelta 2015 riders

I have read rumours that all of the below will be at the Vuelta :-
Quintana and Valverde -  (the team works better when they are both riding as leaders apparently).
Froome
Majka - what no Contador ?
Nibali - with Landa presumably.
Purito
Talansky
Ten Dam
Rolland
Van Den Broeck

Also get to see Alaphillipe again.
Biosphere

I read Aru would be there too. Wonder how much responsibility Landa would be given if he's off to Sky.
Bartali

Bring it on ....
gerry12ie

I think yesterday was the first GT (or certainly the first TDF) that the Top 5 were all previous GT winners
Fontfroide

gerry12ie wrote:
I think yesterday was the first GT (or certainly the first TDF) that the Top 5 were all previous GT winners


That was only one of the impressive things about this Tour.  I suppose that not making him one of the fabulous four might have pissed him off, Valverde.
Boogerd_Fan

gerry12ie wrote:
I think yesterday was the first GT (or certainly the first TDF) that the Top 5 were all previous GT winners


This point wasn't lost on Gesink, who celebrated his 6th place by stating he had won the competition to be "best of the rest"

Laughing
kathy

Esteban Chaves to make his comeback for Orica at the Vuelta
kathy

We are just looking at the Ermita de Alba stage (Stage 16), it being the nearest to us to visit this year.  25% gradient in places!
Biosphere

Very rough gist that Nibali is doing the Vuelta, will focus on the Giro and Olympics next year before leaving Astana for pastures new.

Had s quick look for the cited Gazzetta article, but couldn't find it.

http://www.biciciclismo.com/es/ni...ra-por-el-giro-en-2016-28-07-2015
Nolte

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
gerry12ie wrote:
I think yesterday was the first GT (or certainly the first TDF) that the Top 5 were all previous GT winners


This point wasn't lost on Gesink, who celebrated his 6th place by stating he had won the competition to be "best of the rest"

Laughing


it is something that in the last 10 tour de frances, we had 8 different winners,
last 10 giro's, we have had 8 different winnersand last 10 vueltas, we had 7 different winners although looking at winners list has made me depressed
mazda

Even with his two strikeouts Contador stands out as a serial multiple winner.

He'll want one more Tour.
Nibs will want another Giro.
Quintana will want a first Tour.
The question is whether Froome will ever look to prioritise an expansion of his portfolio, or will he remain stuck on the Tour ?
Bartali

Contador and Nibali are the stand out GT riders of this generation.  I don't think Froome will win another TdF.  He's bad news for the sport despite all the jingoism in the past few days.  Sky will find an excuse to switch him for another winner within 24 mths IMO.  Perhaps a french rider.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
Contador and Nibali are the stand out GT riders of this generation.  I don't think Froome will win another TdF.  He's bad news for the sport despite all the jingoism in the past few days.  Sky will find an excuse to switch him for another winner within 24 mths IMO.  Perhaps a french rider.


Why do you say Froome is bad news for the sport? On the downside there is his history, but he seems a bright, articulate and endlessly patient guy off the bike, and seems unlikely to do anything here that's bad for the sport.

Is it simply that he's "unusual" performance history wise?

Re a French winner for Sky, that would certainly get the French press on side! Who do you think is the most likely candidate?
Boogerd_Fan

Nibs is down for the Giro next year - I'd like him to win another one against a stronger field than the 2013 edition.

Sorry for this one Bart, but maybe one niggle about nibbles is that his GT's have come against weakened fields (or circumstances):
Vuelta vs. Menchov - and found wanting against a 40 year old!
Giro vs. ??Uran!?! / crazy snow
Tour vs. Froome/Bertie who crashed out

In GT's where there have been majority of favourites - he has come up short. Something i hope he can address in 2016.



RE: SKY
would they still consider transforming Pinot to be more consistent/suitable for TT's?
They may do better to focus on Barguil or Bardet?
Before they dip into the French pool talent, surely they need to let G have a crack at it too right? Providing they give ASO some $$$ to make a less climber friendly route.
Fontfroide

Bartali wrote:
Contador and Nibali are the stand out GT riders of this generation.  I don't think Froome will win another TdF.  He's bad news for the sport despite all the jingoism in the past few days.  Sky will find an excuse to switch him for another winner within 24 mths IMO.  Perhaps a french rider.


I have been saving two articles that were on the first page of l'Equipe the Monday.  Their critique of Froome, in my mind, converted me to a Froome fan.  Nearly racist, doubting his genetic heritage, true identity, really awful stuff.  I mean to write about soon.  The exact opposite of jingoism.  turning him into a confused, mixed race, suspicious rider with no pedigree.   It is like there is a war going on, the creation of enemies.  I am afraid I am either a conscientious objector or I am on Froome's side.

Have not been in touch with the British jingoism at all, but I am not surprised it exists.  All British or most, accept he is British, right?
mazda

Fontfroide wrote:
I have been saving two articles that were on the first page of l'Equipe the Monday.  Their critique of Froome, in my mind, converted me to a Froome fan.  Nearly racist, doubting his genetic heritage, true identity, really awful stuff.  I mean to write about soon.  The exact opposite of jingoism.  turning him into a confused, mixed race, suspicious rider with no pedigree.   It is like there is a war going on, the creation of enemies.  I am afraid I am either a conscientious objector or I am on Froome's side.

Have not been in touch with the British jingoism at all, but I am not surprised it exists.  All British or most, accept he is British, right?


That is a little sad, if only to be somewhat expected. Is it the connection through Brailsford and Sky ? Is it the fact he speaks English ? Hypothetically would Porte or Konig have received less hostility ? If a French Sky winner were to be manufactured, and accepted then that is a disgusting shallowness of the highest order.

Anyway the reasons are irrelevant. The dislike comes first, then the reasons are found. That is human nature.

The British press mostly portray him as a fighter (as easy stance to take), but the British public, if I am honest, possibly don't really care. Not like if Murray had won the French Open.

Are you going to be sending them a letter FF ?
Here we have a saying "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" to indicate that someone feels moved to put their complaints (often against a well known, public facing organisation) into writing.
gerry12ie

I get the impression, from the outside looking in (although not as 'outside' as FF) that the British public buy more in to the Sky win - a British team - than they do a Froome win.  They know he isn't a Brit in the way that Bradley is (even though Bradley is really Irish - well he's from Kilburn so he must be) and I don't think Froome has ever lived in the UK, has he?

I was amused by one of the under-the-line comments on a Fotheringham article that goaded the French about how much a 32 year wait for a home win must hurt.  A bit like Three Lions then? Wink
Fontfroide

I do know about Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, having lived in England for 30 years.  But sadly I have never been aware there is a letters page in l'Equipe.  Furthermore it is a rather difficult case to make, and my written French is not up to it.

I imagine the dislike or distrust (verging on hatred?) of Froome and Sky has to do with them being rich (forgetting that Katusha, Tinkoff, BMC and Omega at least are at least as rich), the ugliness of Froome's style, him being SOOO skinny, his reputation of riding looking at his data, the fact that he was not that good until he got with Sky, stylistic connections with the style of Armstrong and his teams, historical enemy things with Britain, and goodness knows what else.  What I can't ever figure out is that Quintana came with a minute of him, is a better climber, they all say, spends loads of time in Colombia with controls as good as here of course, must know something about drugs, has a team that is almost as good if not better than Sky, and not one person whatsoever in France has ever suggested he is doping.  Only Froome.  I find this completely bizarre.  And of course not one of the guys who has already been caught have been mentioned, only Sky and Froome.  I find it a little simplistic.  And even a bit worrying.

Maybe it is some kind of jealousy too.  French teams have been second rank for years (although AG2R seems to be serious) and the Brits, Brailsford, and big money cold "create" two Tour winners and three victories in a few years.  why can't the French do it?  The Brits must be cheating.  Obviously.  No idea what is going on in other countries, only here.  Does every country and all cycling fans and writers other than some Brits think he is a bizarre suspicious cheat?  And no one else is?
mazda

Tinkoff said the other day that Sky could be killing the sport. The amusing part was that he acknowledged that his team spends about the same but that Sky do better because they have a long term plan  Very Happy  That was it !
I kind of got his point, but didn't understand why he felt that Sky were the only sponsor with a long term financial commitment to be able to formulate a long term plan.
Of course he was banging on about how cycling needs to change it's financial structure, but still.

Be interesting to see what gets released from the alleged testing that Froome will be undergoing before the Vuelta.
Who knows, the testing might even involve the Vuelta. I'm not sure what restrictions there are on what you are allowed to monitor/measure while actually racing.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
All British or most, accept he is British, right?


I don't think many doubt his right to represent GB but equally, not many think that he is British in the way that Sir Brad, Sir Chris, Queen Vic, the Lovely Laura and Cav are. He's more British than a lot of recent England cricketers and rugby players it must be acknowledged!
SlowRower

gerry12ie wrote:
I don't think Froome has ever lived in the UK, has he?


Indeed not. Living in Monaco isn't a good PR move, even if it does save tax!
SlowRower

mazda wrote:
If a French Sky winner were to be manufactured, and accepted then that is a disgusting shallowness of the highest order.


I think if Sky signed Barguil, Bardet or Pinot and won the Tour with them it would be accepted as these guys have shown serious GT talent from a young age. Doing it with the likes of Gautier or Sicard (randomly chosen Frenchmen late ish 20s with mid 30s placings in GTs on their record) then who knows?
Fontfroide

If I were making a vast generalisation about Tinkoff and Sky ... I would say that Sky is a good example of a multinational business, run for rational ends, investing in the future, making employees obey orders to move with the plan, taking a medium term view (long term is 25 years), with a web of connections inside and outside the British cycling business cultivated over a decade or two.  A good solid modern capitalist business.

Tinkoff however is a second rate rich guy who made money hand over fist, any old way, during the period when Russians were learning about capitalism, with the constant threat of him quitting cycling and taking his bat home, and without any genuine connection to cycling, except he likes it.  He is an amateur semi-capitalist with a huge ego.  He will never beat Sky, if Sky is trying hard.

By the way, I am liking Brailsford less and less, and Sky has never been my favourite team.  I am anti-capitalist in my bones, but I can still tell the difference between personalised hack capitalists and well-organised ones.

Now that is simplistic.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
I would say that Sky is a good example of a multinational business, run for rational ends, investing in the future, making employees obey orders to move with the plan...


I think the generally held view these days is that you get more from your employees if you create shared goals so that the employees are motivated to do what's needed as it's good for them as well (in areas other than simply £££.)

Issuing "orders" doesn't really work except in the armed forces.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
Why do you say Froome is bad news for the sport? On the downside there is his history, but he seems a bright, articulate and endlessly patient guy off the bike, and seems unlikely to do anything here that's bad for the sport.


For all the reasons FF has outlined in the 4 or 5 posts above.  However nice and articulate he might be, he does / has little to endear himself to the general public and has unwittingly managed to drag the sport into the dirt in a way that Astana, Contador and the rest have never been able to.  Not good box office ...
Bartali

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Nibs is down for the Giro next year - I'd like him to win another one against a stronger field than the 2013 edition.

Sorry for this one Bart, but maybe one niggle about nibbles is that his GT's have come against weakened fields (or circumstances):
Vuelta vs. Menchov - and found wanting against a 40 year old!
Giro vs. ??Uran!?! / crazy snow
Tour vs. Froome/Bertie who crashed out

In GT's where there have been majority of favourites - he has come up short. Something i hope he can address in 2016.


Makes me cross Boogie ...

Are we going to say the same about Froome this year who beat a knackered Contador and a clearly unfit Nibali and a TJVG who retired sick? And even then he had to rely on Movistar getting caught behind a crash while Sky pushed on?  Hardly the stuff of champions.

Vuelta ... Nibali found wanting against a 40 year old while riding his second GT of the year but still stuffed the fella who came third in this years TdF.  (But Froomes a genuine champion because he beats Valverde while fresh?)

Giro - Crazy snow?  So?  Not sure of the relevance of the weather.  Again, Froome thrived in the unusually hot weather this month but that doesn't diminish his win?  And yes Nibali did beat Uran ... he also beat the defending TdF champion.

That said ... yes I would love to see an on form Froome, Nibali, Quintana and Contador do battle.  I don't think we have ever seen Froome or Quintana come up against a fit Bertie or Nibs.  That would be good.
Boogerd_Fan

Your bottom line is my point - i'd like to see that battle, and for Nibs to come out of it on top. It would rid any doubt / forum hearsay that he wins against only weakened fields.

The third week at the Tour gives me hope that this year is just a blip.
Bartali

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Your bottom line is my point - i'd like to see that battle, and for Nibs to come out of it on top. It would rid any doubt / forum hearsay that he wins against only weakened fields.

The third week at the Tour gives me hope that this year is just a blip.


I think he was either ill or two weeks behind schedule this year.  He looked much more his old self in the third week.  Vuelta will be interesting if he rides along with Aru and Landa ... too many cooks ...  Also, I red that he will be leaving Astana sooner rather than later.  I'll be happy when that happens ...
mazda

That intrigues me - the "getting the form right" bit.
Despite all the information the teams must have on their riders it still seems to be something of a black art in getting them to the right level for the start of the Tour.
It could be argued that Froome won because he timed his form the best - started well, peaked day 12 or so and was fading come week 3.
Quintana was getting stronger the whole time but only passed Froome on stage 19.

But also, clearly the team matters.  Well it seemed to matter this time. If only to the extent that Quintana ended up in the wrong place on stage 2.
Would Quintana have won had he been riding for BMC who might have got him to a similar place as TJVG after stage 9 ?
Equally Froome would not have won had he been riding for MTN.

I think that we might look back and decide that beating Quintana into second in this tour was one of the strongest "top two" performances in recent GTs.
To get two top riders at roughly the same level has proved fairly rare in recent GTs. To hope for 3 or 4 is the stuff of dreams, for us lot anyway.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
[Froome] has unwittingly managed to drag the sport into the dirt in a way that Astana, Contador and the rest have never been able to.


How so? Astana have Vino as their DS and nearly lost their World Tour licence after a succession of positives. Contador has actually been busted and provided us with one of the more embarrassing excuses for a test failure. The "others" also have a somewhat chequered history - Basso, Valverde etc.

Sky talk a load of b*llocks and supposedly race in a dull style (though the sh*t hit the fan when Froome animated the PSM stage - some folk are clearly never happy!) but haven't actually transgressed AFAIK.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Nibs is down for the Giro next year - I'd like him to win another one against a stronger field than the 2013 edition.

Sorry for this one Bart, but maybe one niggle about nibbles is that his GT's have come against weakened fields (or circumstances):
Vuelta vs. Menchov - and found wanting against a 40 year old!
Giro vs. ??Uran!?! / crazy snow
Tour vs. Froome/Bertie who crashed out

In GT's where there have been majority of favourites - he has come up short. Something i hope he can address in 2016.


Makes me cross Boogie ...

Are we going to say the same about Froome this year who beat a knackered Contador and a clearly unfit Nibali and a TJVG who retired sick? And even then he had to rely on Movistar getting caught behind a crash while Sky pushed on?  Hardly the stuff of champions.

Vuelta ... Nibali found wanting against a 40 year old while riding his second GT of the year but still stuffed the fella who came third in this years TdF.  (But Froomes a genuine champion because he beats Valverde while fresh?)

Giro - Crazy snow?  So?  Not sure of the relevance of the weather.  Again, Froome thrived in the unusually hot weather this month but that doesn't diminish his win?  And yes Nibali did beat Uran ... he also beat the defending TdF champion.

That said ... yes I would love to see an on form Froome, Nibali, Quintana and Contador do battle.  I don't think we have ever seen Froome or Quintana come up against a fit Bertie or Nibs.  That would be good.


A potential issue with Nibs is that the number of GT performances where he's been mullered when up against top quality opposition (e.g. Vuelta 2011, Tour 2012, Tour 2015) outnumber those where he's been on top (Giro 2013, Tour 2014) and one can question the quality of opposition who remained upright in the latter of these. (Not to devalue the win - you can only beat what's there.)

Eventually, you can excuse only so many "sub-par" performances before you have to accept that "sub-par" is in fact normal, and that the top performances are the outliers.

Edit - Re Froome and Bertie, didn't they cross swords in the Vuelta last year? Maybe not both in peak form, but both had the same kind of build up.
SlowRower

mazda wrote:
That intrigues me - the "getting the form right" bit.

Despite all the information the teams must have on their riders it still seems to be something of a black art in getting them to the right level for the start of the Tour.


Even at my lowly level of cycling, predicting how I'm going to perform after a certain build up is far less predictable than other sports e.g. rowing and running. In these latter two, it is quite easy to predict performance on race day, whereas cycling frequently surprises, both on the up and down sides.

I have no real theories on this either, which is unusual for me!

It clearly is a real issue at pro level as well, as putting aside issues relating to assisted preparation, some teams/riders clearly mess things up for the GTs, albeit by the "fine margins" that make the difference at the sharp end.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
Bartali wrote:
[Froome] has unwittingly managed to drag the sport into the dirt in a way that Astana, Contador and the rest have never been able to.


How so? Astana have Vino as their DS and nearly lost their World Tour licence after a succession of positives. Contador has actually been busted and provided us with one of the more embarrassing excuses for a test failure. The "others" also have a somewhat chequered history - Basso, Valverde etc.

Sky talk a load of b*llocks and supposedly race in a dull style (though the sh*t hit the fan when Froome animated the PSM stage - some folk are clearly never happy!) but haven't actually transgressed AFAIK.


You miss the point SR.  Its not whether he's transgressed or whether he deserves the criticism etc ... its simply that he's the one who has got cycling on the front pages for all the wrong reasons.  No one spits at Vino, or Bertie.  No one pours piss on Basso.  Not his fault, but he's not good for the sport.  The sport needs heroes and for whatever reasons Froome isn't perceived as one.  Sky need a Wiggins, or a Frenchie .... or even a Welshman.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:


A potential issue with Nibs is that the number of GT performances where he's been mullered when up against top quality opposition (e.g. Vuelta 2011, Tour 2012, Tour 2015)

Edit - Re Froome and Bertie, didn't they cross swords in the Vuelta last year? Maybe not both in peak form, but both had the same kind of build up.


Yup ... Froome was mullered by Bertie in the Vuelta last year.

IMO you are falling for the hype.  Nibs mullered in the 2011 Vuelta?  That would be his second GT of the year vs Froome's first. 2012 ... everyone knows Nibs was ill.  2015 ... clearly off par.  If you are going to say that there is a 'problem' with a rider who gets ill, had bad patches and suffers through multiple GTs then I suggest you turn that analysis on its head.  I have a a problem with riders who never get ill, can dominate from PN to the Vuelta and never have bad days.  Now Coppi, Anquitil, Merckx and Hinault fall into the first category .... draw your own conclusions.
Biosphere

Froome in 2014 did not have a smooth season in terms of health and crashes. Arguably he was not able to build the type of form he had in other years. I'm not too fussed about Nibali versus Froome, but I couldn't put Nibali ahead as a GT rider.

If you were to say that Nibali was more of a racer and can turn a race on its head then I wouldn't argue. Just like I wouldn't argue if you were to say he's Italian Wink
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
IMO you are falling for the hype.  Nibs mullered in the 2011 Vuelta?  That would be his second GT of the year vs Froome's first. 2012 ... everyone knows Nibs was ill.  2015 ... clearly off par.  If you are going to say that there is a 'problem' with a rider who gets ill, had bad patches and suffers through multiple GTs then I suggest you turn that analysis on its head.


I'm not saying there's a problem with getting ill. I'm just saying that a rider can only have so many excuses for performances one want to describe as sub-par before you have to accept that sub-par is in fact normal, and the good performances are the oddities.

Having ridden the 2011 Giro is no excuse for getting beating in the Vuelta the same year given there's 3 months between the end of one and the start of another.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
You miss the point SR.  Its not whether he's transgressed or whether he deserves the criticism etc ... its simply that he's the one who has got cycling on the front pages for all the wrong reasons.  No one spits at Vino, or Bertie.  No one pours piss on Basso.  Not his fault, but he's not good for the sport.  The sport needs heroes and for whatever reasons Froome isn't perceived as one.  Sky need a Wiggins, or a Frenchie .... or even a Welshman.


I'd agree that Sky needs a Wiggins as a hero!

But the rest of your post is really quite worrying. If the crowd had been throwing bananas and making monkey chants at Teklehaimanotte (sp?) then would you be saying he was bad for the sport because he got the sport on the front pages for the wrong reason? And do you think that some Belgian guy who won the odd race was bad for the sport because someone punched him mid race?

That there are videos of Froome being spat at on world wide news is solely the fault of the brain-dead / pissed up / bigotted / small-minded / inadequate morons who are doing the spitting. Froome is just riding his bike. He's not dragging the sport anywhere.

There's clearly something wrong with the sport when Virenque is greeted like a conquering hero. I don't know exactly what is wrong with the sport but I do know that it isn't Chris Froome. If he retired "for the good of the sport" then the next time someone "different" came along and was very successful that a few idiots didn't like, the abuse would start again.
Boogerd_Fan

Biosphere wrote:
Froome in 2014 did not have a smooth season in terms of health and crashes. Arguably he was not able to build the type of form he had in other years. I'm not too fussed about Nibali versus Froome, but I couldn't put Nibali ahead as a GT rider.

If you were to say that Nibali was more of a racer and can turn a race on its head then I wouldn't argue. Just like I wouldn't argue if you were to say he's Italian Wink



I would rate Nibs higher than Froome.. because he has a grand slam of GT's
SlowRower

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I would rate Nibs higher than Froome.. because he has a grand slam of GT's


But if the stakes were the deeds of your house (or anything really valuable) and you needed one of them to win a Grand Tour against a fully fit and rested Contador, who would you pick?

The route and weather obviously play a part, so we'll say there's a typical amount of climbing, a single 50km flattish ITT and typical summer mountain weather (i.e. hot, cold, wet, windy, dry but no snow).
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
But the rest of your post is really quite worrying. If the crowd had been throwing bananas and making monkey chants ... I don't know exactly what is wrong with the sport but I do know that it isn't Chris Froome.


But that's the reality ... the sport needs heroes who bring in advertisers who bring in money.  Froome - even as a double Tour winner - is a marketing nightmare.  That's why I think he is bad for the sport.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I would rate Nibs higher than Froome.. because he has a grand slam of GT's


But if the stakes were the deeds of your house (or anything really valuable) and you needed one of them to win a Grand Tour against a fully fit and rested Contador, who would you pick?

The route and weather obviously play a part, so we'll say there's a typical amount of climbing, a single 50km flattish ITT and typical summer mountain weather (i.e. hot, cold, wet, windy, dry but no snow).


Well I wouldn't put my money on anyone who hasn't finished 20% of the GTs they've started.  Also, if this were the second GT of the season rather than the only GT of the season, then I would put my money on the rider that has managed to podium twice than the one that gets mullered by Valvede and J-Rod!
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
But the rest of your post is really quite worrying. If the crowd had been throwing bananas and making monkey chants ... I don't know exactly what is wrong with the sport but I do know that it isn't Chris Froome.


But that's the reality ... the sport needs heroes who bring in advertisers who bring in money.  Froome - even as a double Tour winner - is a marketing nightmare.  That's why I think he is bad for the sport.


So how could Froome become more heroic? Get busted for clenbuterol? Ride for Vino with Aru and Landa as team mates?
Bartali

I'm not sure, but your suggestions obviously aren't the answer.  His riding style doesn't help and his 'confused' nationality won't endear him to many in the UK.

A lot of the damage was done back in 2012 when he 'attacked' BW and compounded by his gobby wife and ill timed musings on the incident in 2013.
Biosphere

Bartali wrote:
I'm not sure, but your suggestions obviously aren't the answer.  His riding style doesn't help and his 'confused' nationality won't endear him to many in the UK.

A lot of the damage was done back in 2012 when he 'attacked' BW and compounded by his gobby wife and ill timed musings on the incident in 2013.


I don't think any of the shit he took in that last month is related to the 2nd paragraph though. In the first paragraph you'd have to clarify "riding style"?

Confused nationality? Aren't both his parents British? I'm not taking any offence, just commenting, but both my boys seem to quite enjoy the idea that they are half Swiss, half Irish. I think it's good to mix things up Smile

Came across this last night:


Click to see full size image
Biosphere

SlowRower wrote:
. . . That there are videos of Froome being spat at on world wide news is solely the fault of the brain-dead / pissed up / bigotted / small-minded / inadequate morons who are doing the spitting. Froome is just riding his bike. He's not dragging the sport anywhere . . .


I go further - it's not solely the fault of morons at the side of the road. They get their information from the world around them and when there is talk of the sport being dragged somewhere it shouldn't be, then those that use their media platforms to conclude Froome is a doper are doing more than their fair share of the dragging.

Personally, all of the current big names are in a grey area for me at the moment based on current performances. Some of the biggest have already been busted for doping (when their performances went beyond grey), some have not been busted and maybe never will be since they don't go beyond the limits of what is at least plausible these days. I wait and see and wont be surprised if more are popped. Not much point in adding to the noise though by shouting about my suspicions.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I would rate Nibs higher than Froome.. because he has a grand slam of GT's


But if the stakes were the deeds of your house (or anything really valuable) and you needed one of them to win a Grand Tour against a fully fit and rested Contador, who would you pick?

The route and weather obviously play a part, so we'll say there's a typical amount of climbing, a single 50km flattish ITT and typical summer mountain weather (i.e. hot, cold, wet, windy, dry but no snow).


Well I wouldn't put my money on anyone who hasn't finished 20% of the GTs they've started.  Also, if this were the second GT of the season rather than the only GT of the season, then I would put my money on the rider that has managed to podium twice than the one that gets mullered by Valvede and J-Rod!


I didn't understand this last night after a glass or two and it makes no more sense now! I assume you'd pick Nibs over Froome? Smile I'd have to go for Froome, if only because he is more consistent in GTs.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
I'm not sure, but your suggestions obviously aren't the answer.  His riding style doesn't help and his 'confused' nationality won't endear him to many in the UK.

A lot of the damage was done back in 2012 when he 'attacked' BW and compounded by his gobby wife and ill timed musings on the incident in 2013.


I think these factors just make him hard to get behind in the way that we get behind certain riders irrespective of nationality. I don't see how they could be classed as dragging the sport into the mire, though Mrs F would do well to keep her trap shut.
SlowRower

Biosphere wrote:
I go further - it's not solely the fault of morons at the side of the road.


Ultimately, whatever flames have been fanned, if you spit on someone from the roadside then it can only be your fault. It's a tiny minority, as you sadly get in any large group of folk. Most just restrict themselves to booing or moonies, which I think is fine. (I booed Brailsford when he went past last year as I was still deep in my "Where's Wiggo" phase.)
mazda

SlowRower wrote:
Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I would rate Nibs higher than Froome.. because he has a grand slam of GT's


But if the stakes were the deeds of your house (or anything really valuable) and you needed one of them to win a Grand Tour against a fully fit and rested Contador, who would you pick?

The route and weather obviously play a part, so we'll say there's a typical amount of climbing, a single 50km flattish ITT and typical summer mountain weather (i.e. hot, cold, wet, windy, dry but no snow).


Well I wouldn't put my money on anyone who hasn't finished 20% of the GTs they've started.  Also, if this were the second GT of the season rather than the only GT of the season, then I would put my money on the rider that has managed to podium twice than the one that gets mullered by Valvede and J-Rod!


I didn't understand this last night after a glass or two and it makes no more sense now! I assume you'd pick Nibs over Froome? Smile I'd have to go for Froome, if only because he is more consistent in GTs.


I think he's saying he'd refuse to take the bet. You'd want your money on Contador, although I think we have passed the tipping point.
Like you, I'm not sure how failing to finish only 1 in 5 GTs is a bad mark.
Bartali

Froome has failed to finish 2 GTs and has never made the podium when riding the second GT of a season.  So I'm saying Froome is not that consistent at all.  For the avoidance of doubt ... if riding the second GT in any given season, then I would err on the side of Nibali as he has consistently made the podium in such circumstances.  IMO Froome is a bad bet at only 80% chance of actually finishing.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
I'd have to go for Froome, if only because he is more consistent in GTs.


Strange comment from a statistician? Nibali GT podium rate 53% v Froome GT podium rate 40%.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
I'd have to go for Froome, if only because he is more consistent in GTs.


Strange comment from a statistician? Nibali GT podium rate 53% v Froome GT podium rate 40%.


Froome is vuelta 2011 onwards. Since when I believe his gt record is: 2-2-4-1-crash-2-1.

And the 4 was the 2012 vuelta after the tour against riders who didn't contest the tour gc. I've not checked but what is nibs record in the second of back to back GTs?
Boogerd_Fan

Biosphere wrote:
Bartali wrote:
I'm not sure, but your suggestions obviously aren't the answer.  His riding style doesn't help and his 'confused' nationality won't endear him to many in the UK.

A lot of the damage was done back in 2012 when he 'attacked' BW and compounded by his gobby wife and ill timed musings on the incident in 2013.


I don't think any of the shit he took in that last month is related to the 2nd paragraph though. In the first paragraph you'd have to clarify "riding style"?

Confused nationality? Aren't both his parents British? I'm not taking any offence, just commenting, but both my boys seem to quite enjoy the idea that they are half Swiss, half Irish. I think it's good to mix things up Smile

Came across this last night:


Click to see full size image




a well-written and nicely weighted article.

is Julien putting thibaut in the shop window for SKY?? Very Happy
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:

Froome is vuelta 2011 onwards. Since when I believe his gt record is: 2-2-4-1-crash-2-1.

And the 4 was the 2012 vuelta after the tour against riders who didn't contest the tour gc. I've not checked but what is nibs record in the second of back to back GTs?


Just how many little side-rules are you making here.  First there was it wasn't allowed to snow.  Now its Froomes record since 2011 ...

Well lets count Nibali since 2010 (I'm being generous in skipping over Froome's remarkable transformation): 3-1-2-7-3-1-2-1-4.  The 7th being a second GT of the season .... on the other two occasions he was first and second.
Bartali

SlowRower wrote:
And the 4 was the 2012 vuelta after the tour against riders who didn't contest the tour gc.
... but he was still beaten by two riders who were on their second GT of the season, so hardly fresh as you imply.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
And the 4 was the 2012 vuelta after the tour against riders who didn't contest the tour gc.
... but he was still beaten by two riders who were on their second GT of the season, so hardly fresh as you imply.


I don't think jrod riding the giro and valverde riding the tour conservatively to 20th would take anywhere near as much recovery as froome's tour 2nd in 2012. And all 3 lost to the fresh contador.
Biosphere

Sorry to go on topic Wink

Quintana confirms participation. Quite an impressive line up so far

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/q...confirmed-to-ride-vuelta-a-espaa/
Boogerd_Fan

Not sure if confirmed lineup for Lotto-Jumbo but i hope to see Kelderman start.. he missed his chance to show what he got in the Tour (despite a really good first TT).
HuwB

Just popped in to say I'm back from Mallorca and off my self enforced internet blackout.
Have to agree with Bio. This provisional Vuelta startlist looks exceptional.
Way better than the Giro. Has me quite excited, i have to say.
Especially given the fact that while I was away, I got booked on a little trip to go watch James sister number 3 ride the World mountain bike champs.
So what? you might ask. Well, they just happen to be taking place in Andorra over the first week of September.
We arrive on the Vuelta rest day, which is also in Andorra and we are booked into a hotel very close to the following day's stage finish of this.



Very Happy
Bartali

Nice Huw Smile  Good luck to James no. 3!
mr shifter

SlowRower wrote:

So how could Froome become more heroic? Get busted for clenbuterol? Ride for Vino with Aru and Landa as team mates?
Stop riding a season programe like Armstrong did to collect the big value money.
At least ride the Ardennes Classics instead of the "Post Tour" Crits.

All this bull about him and Wiggo :- well Wiggo has ridden on the continent and I remember his solo TDF break in a Cofidis Jersey which means we saw him progress in the sport.

If Froomey was to even race his mountain bike style in their MB races, which would endear him a little more with improved palmares.

Like Sciandri he will finally settle down in the country he is most comfortable with and their customs.

As we said so often to fanbois that Seven wins in one race is only a step to being a great rider and needs more palmares.
SlowRower

mr shifter wrote:
SlowRower wrote:

So how could Froome become more heroic? Get busted for clenbuterol? Ride for Vino with Aru and Landa as team mates?
Stop riding a season programe like Armstrong did to collect the big value money.


Sorry - my question to Bart was in a direct response to him saying Froome had dragged the sport into the dirt in a way that Contador and Astana hadn't done and saying that the sport needs a hero to bring in the money. Hence the specific references to clenbuterol and some very dodgy riders at Astana.

Riders don't need to be heroic - they just need to win high profile events.
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SlowRower wrote:

Froome is vuelta 2011 onwards. Since when I believe his gt record is: 2-2-4-1-crash-2-1.

And the 4 was the 2012 vuelta after the tour against riders who didn't contest the tour gc. I've not checked but what is nibs record in the second of back to back GTs?


Just how many little side-rules are you making here.  First there was it wasn't allowed to snow.  Now its Froomes record since 2011 ...

Well lets count Nibali since 2010 (I'm being generous in skipping over Froome's remarkable transformation): 3-1-2-7-3-1-2-1-4.  The 7th being a second GT of the season .... on the other two occasions he was first and second.


Bart,

We're not assessing overall career records here. We're assessing who we'd want to win a GT to save the deeds of our house as of now. Which is why I'm only considering Froome since he got good. If he went back to pre Vuelta 2011 form then I wouldn't pick him! It's also why you can't compare Froome's Vuelta performances after the Tour to Nibali's Vuelta performances after the Giro, as the recovery time is different. Similarly, you can't conclude Berto is past it after the Tour - you can only conclude he was still sh*gged from riding the Giro. If I had the choice between Froome riding back to back GTs and Nibali riding a the Vuelta after resting/preparing after the Giro I'd pick Nibali.

However, if racing programmes had been broadly similar, I'd pick the current version of Froome over Nibs as their past head to head favours Froome quite heavily. Though I'd actually still pick a properly prepared Berto. His record in GTs when he's reasonably well rested is staggering. (I think there's only Tour 2013 that he hasn't won (*) since 2007 in such circumstances.)

Ask the same question in ten years time and I very much doubt I'll pick Froome - the answer then will be someone who is most likely a teenager currently who is thrashing the elite adults on his local racing scene at the moment.

If the question had been 10 years ago the answer would probably have been Lance. Ten years prior to that, The Badger etc.

The reference to snow was simply to make it a pure test of cycling. Whilst you have to deal with what you encounter in a race, snow is a freak condition for cyclists to race in so I wanted to focus on typical GT conditions (ie anything from hot to cold, from dry to wet, from still to windy, but not snow.)

(*) Other than being DQ'd obviously!
HuwB

mr shifter wrote:
SlowRower wrote:

So how could Froome become more heroic? Get busted for clenbuterol? Ride for Vino with Aru and Landa as team mates?
Stop riding a season programe like Armstrong did to collect the big value money.
At least ride the Ardennes Classics instead of the "Post Tour" Crits.


All this bull about him and Wiggo :- well Wiggo has ridden on the continent and I remember his solo TDF break in a Cofidis Jersey which means we saw him progress in the sport.

If Froomey was to even race his mountain bike style in their MB races, which would endear him a little more with improved palmares.

Like Sciandri he will finally settle down in the country he is most comfortable with and their customs.

As we said so often to fanbois that Seven wins in one race is only a step to being a great rider and needs more palmares.


Sorry, but I think that's bollocks.
The Clinic are always having a go at him for winning season long.
Armstrong only ever showed up around P-N, Flanders/AGR and then again at the Dauphine.

When did Armstrong ever back up a Tour with a Vuelta?

Oh and I seem to recall Froome riding (and crashing) in FW this year.
mr shifter

HuwB wrote:
mr shifter wrote:
SlowRower wrote:

So how could Froome become more heroic? Get busted for clenbuterol? Ride for Vino with Aru and Landa as team mates?
Stop riding a season programe like Armstrong did to collect the big value money.
At least ride the Ardennes Classics instead of the "Post Tour" Crits.


All this bull about him and Wiggo :- well Wiggo has ridden on the continent and I remember his solo TDF break in a Cofidis Jersey which means we saw him progress in the sport.

If Froomey was to even race his mountain bike style in their MB races, which would endear him a little more with improved palmares.

Like Sciandri he will finally settle down in the country he is most comfortable with and their customs.

As we said so often to fanbois that Seven wins in one race is only a step to being a great rider and needs more palmares.


Sorry, but I think that's bollocks.
The Clinic are always having a go at him for winning season long.
Armstrong only ever showed up around P-N, Flanders/AGR and then again at the Dauphine.

When did Armstrong ever back up a Tour with a Vuelta?

Oh and I seem to recall Froome riding (and crashing) in FW this year.
OK so he rode "a" Fleche Wallonne that you and your Clinic have analysed in full, but is a 123rd position on his palmares any good ?
I think that's why I missed such bollocks and his "Clinic" early season rides also.
Maybe your Clinic get confused with Vincenzo Nibali riding T,A. and San Remo. !
I did notice a couple of years earlier that Froome was on the Liege start list but he DNS.

The point of my post was to show the similarities of the Magic 7 time magician who we all scoffed at his fanbois about the ludicrus statement of being the greatest and if Froome wants to be more popular then he needs better palmares.
LA at least still holds legit Wins in World Championship, Fleche Wallonne and Sans Sebastian and I realise this being a little unfair because it was before he pulled any rabbits from the hat.
HuwB

Anyhow, to get back on topic, it seems we may be in for quite a surprise.
Strong rumours are circulating that Contador is going to be at the depart.
He's been on a number of stage recons and is expected to announce his participation within the next 48 hours.
mazda

To be fair, he has less to lose by turning up.
He may feel it is a more level playing field against the other star riders.
Of course there will be other fresher riders taking part.
Biosphere

Saxo saying it's not happening - but not in a 100% convincing way.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08...ntador-will-ride-vuelta-a-espana/
HuwB

Team Sky:-
Chris Froome, Sergio Henao, Mikel Nieve, Vasil Kiryienka, Christian Knees, Ian Boswell, Salvatore Puccio, Nicolas Roche and Geraint Thomas.

Movistar:-
Nairo Quintana, Alejandro Valverde, Andrey Amador, Rory Sutherland, Javi Moreno, Imanol Erviti, Fran Ventoso, José Joaquín Rojas and Giovanni Visconti.

Team Colombia-Coldeportes:-
Alex Cano, Fabio Duarte, Leonardo Duque, Walter Pedraza, Carlos Julian Quintero, Brayan Ramirez, Miguel Angel Rubiano, Rodolfo Torres, Juan Pablo Valencia.
HuwB

Lampre-Merida:- Cattaneo, Conti, Durasek, Grmay, Koshevoy, Niemiec, Oliveira, Plaza, Richeze.

Etix:- Bouet, Brambilla, de la Cruz, Keisse, Maes, Meersman, Serry, Terpstra, Verona.
HuwB

Will stick this here.
RTVE to broadcast all of stages 11 (the Andorra stage that I'll be at) and 20, live:

http://www.rtve.es/rtve/20150818/...cion-ronda-espanola/1202124.shtml

AG2R:- Bagdonas, Chérel, Gougeard, Kadri, Minard, Montaguti, Nocentini, Pozzovivo et Vansummeren.

No show Betancur again.

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