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Slapshot 3

Uk Peeps only - Stealth Taxes

This should be passed to as many people as possible.
When VAT was temporarily reduced to 15%, the Chancellor added 2% duty to fuel to offset the reduction in tax collected from motorists. Now that VAT has been increased to 17.5% again this hidden tax has not been removed - hence recent rises in your fuel costs. Sign the petition at the link below to have this stealth tax removed!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/DutyReduction/
grrr

The Government needs money from somewhere.  The petition doesn't help much in that regard.

Are signatories suggesting a rise in income tax?  If that's the case I'll sign.  If they are suggesting further cuts in public spending then I'd rather people cut down their unnecessary journeys a bit.
SlowRower

Slapshot,

Whilst the tax change to which you refer is a sneaky one - albeit very predictable - it's not really a stealth tax as such. It's perfectly easy to spot this tax, even if the Government hasn't announced it with a great fanfare.

The real stealth taxes are those that hit people and they don't even know they're happening. To my mind, the ultimate stealth tax was the abolition of the right of pension funds to reclaim advance corporation tax payments.

In 1997 this was hailed as a masterstroke, raising money from greedy corporate pension schemes - a "victimless" tax. Now, of course, this is widely acknowledged as an evil tax grab, hitting low paid workers and pensioners, and a major reason for the sad demise in the UK's overall pension provision.

Raising petrol duty is an obvious thing to do, given the parlous state of the national finances. Demand for petrol is price inelastic, and no b*gger can avoid paying the tax on it.
thunderthighs

once a tax is applied, shall never be reduced..ciao
MAILLOT JAUNE

TT, I think you mean that once a tax is introduced, it is never abolished.

From Wiki "income tax was implemented in Britain by William Pitt the Younger in his budget of December 1798 to pay for weapons and equipment in preparation for the Napoleonic wars"
Mrs John Murphy

To be fair, the price of petrol is not inelastic as there is a point in time at which people simply lower demand. However, this would be predicated upon absolute poverty rather than relative poverty.

You could of course convert your car to run on chip fat, or alcohol. During petrol rationing in the 1980's in Ro, a cousin of my boss got his car to run on plum brandy.
SlowRower

Demand for petrol is dependent on its price to a certain extent, but its price inelasticity is right up there.

Apparently, if you run your car on chip fat, you still have to pay fuel duty on it. I heard that on Panorama on the BBC, though, so it may be a complete fabrication.
Superbagneres

grrr wrote:
The Government needs money from somewhere.  The petition doesn't help much in that regard.

Are signatories suggesting a rise in income tax?  If that's the case I'll sign.  If they are suggesting further cuts in public spending then I'd rather people cut down their unnecessary journeys a bit.


I am loath to interfere in UK politics, but why not cancel the petrol tax increase and simply borrow some more money in the hope that it might turn out Ok and you might be able to pay it back some day?

Or if you decide you need to increase revenue, why not just keep the income tax bands as they are and increase the rate of National Insurance? No-one will ever notice.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit stupid, but on the plus side I'm not drawing a ministerial salary for it.
SlowRower

Superbagneres wrote:
I am loath to interfere in UK politics, but why not cancel the petrol tax increase and simply borrow some more money in the hope that it might turn out Ok and you might be able to pay it back some day?


The UK gov't has done the "borrow more and hope it turns out OK" for as long as it can. Projections are that the UK needs to borrow £200b for the next few yeas, and there is now a serious risk that overseas investors will simply refuse to take on any more UK government debt. If this happens, the UK would be f*cked - the IMF, EU and / or China would then take over our fiscal policy and I doubt it would necessarily be particularly pleasant, although there would be a useful reduction in the number of state employed "5 a-day" advisers and the like.

Publishing credible plans to raise taxes keeps overseas investors happy and willing to lend.

Superbagneres wrote:
Or if you decide you need to increase revenue, why not just keep the income tax bands as they are and increase the rate of National Insurance? No-one will ever notice.


This is already happening. People have noticed, but in the main, accept it is necessary. Whether the electorate blames the UK gov't or "external factors" at the upcoming general election remains to be seen.
Bartali

Superbagneres wrote:
Or if you decide you need to increase revenue, why not just keep the income tax bands as they are and increase ....

.... my salary!
Slapshot 3

If our salaries rose in percentage terms, just slightly ahead of the direct and indirect tax increases and NI increases maybe fewer of us would mind. Personally I haven't had a pay rise that even matches inflation for the last 7 years.
ventoux

Wimps! I'm working in the Irish Economy, which is a basket case.... as a public employee my salary has been CUT 3 times in the past 14 months... a total of around 16%... and no sign of a tax cut anywhere (rather the reverse..  Crying or Very sad  )

... on the plus side, I still have the mountains & the ocean  Very Happy
Fontfroide

You think that is bad?  How about those of us who for one reason or another don't live in the UK.  We have lost 30% of our salaries or benefits or pensions over the recent times.   The world of money dealers has decided, not incorrectly, that the British economy is a joke and have made decisions to just cut the rate of exchange.  The market speaks.  No big problem for the comfy, but a huge problem for the near the bottom people.
Fontfroide

Sorry, double post, my connection is really slow today.  And I am impatient.
SlowRower

FF,

Whilst I have considerable sympathy for your situation, it is one largely of your own making (assuming that you weren't compelled through circumstances to live in a non-extradition treaty country. Smile) I assume you chose to live where you do rather than in Blighty to benefit from better weather, nicer neighbours, better value for money housing, better public services etc.

Currency movements are always a risk when you have your income denominated in one currency and your outgoings denominated in another.

Employees of the Irish state, however, do have a legitimate reason for complaint (not, I suspect, that it will do any good.) It is reasonable to assume that any government in a Western economy will be at least able to avoid going bust and having to slash public spending to avoid going bankrupt and being taken over by Germany. Unfortunately, this modest expectation proved beyond the Irish government, and the people are paying the price.

It's only due to the fact that the UK can still print its own money - an option not open to the Irish as part of the Eurozone - that the same doesn't already apply here, although I have a nasty feeling the gilt markets will force us to take some unpleasant medicine sooner rather than later. Sad
ventoux

Fontfroide wrote:
You think that is bad?  How about those of us who for one reason or another don't live in the UK.  We have lost 30% of our salaries or benefits or pensions over the recent times.   The world of money dealers has decided, not incorrectly, that the British economy is a joke and have made decisions to just cut the rate of exchange.  The market speaks.  No big problem for the comfy, but a huge problem for the near the bottom people.


well, I didn't mention it, as I didn't want you thinking there was any self-pity going on here, BUT, virtually all of my pension income (when it arrives, which will be too bloody soon  Wink  ) is in Sterling, so I'll get hit there just like you....

.. and I think SR is right... some hard medicine will be headed in the UK direction sooner or later....  Shocked
Fontfroide

SlowRower wrote:
FF,

Whilst I have considerable sympathy for your situation, it is one largely of your own making (assuming that you weren't compelled through circumstances to live in a non-extradition treaty country. Smile) I assume you chose to live where you do rather than in Blighty to benefit from better weather, nicer neighbours, better value for money housing, better public services etc.

Currency movements are always a risk when you have your income denominated in one currency and your outgoings denominated in another.

Sad


Thanks for the sympathy SR.  

My wife is French, although all her life she worked in the UK, and is, like me British.  You are right though, I chose to move to France, mainly to continue to live with my wife, who wanted to return.  No one suspected that the pitiful finance capital bloated Brit economy would go belly up and that because they chose to keep the almighty pound, they would become a third world economy.  I suppose that one is supposed to predict what might happen in seven years, with exchange rates and all, before one moves, but give me a break.  Do YOU know what is going to happen in a few years with the pound, interest rates, investments, the property market, pensions and so forth?  I thought not.  

My point is that the British economy is based on borrowing as much as one can, beaten only by the USA.  Britain has one third of all the personal debt in Europe.  It is a pathetic economy, and those of us who live in other parts of Europe just have to take the shit given out by the exchange rate thieves, even more than those who remain.  I DID NOT choose in that way.  I did not choose to go for cheaper property prices.  There are many better things about France, but that is not why I left.  Although I am sure you are aware that the medical care in the UK is going down fast.  But still, you seem to think that it is MY FAULT and my choice.  I say I never chose this and it is not my fault the British economy is dominated by financial speculators and very heavily indebted people.  You are right though, I just have to take it.  Thanks again for the sympathy, and above all for blaming the victim.  

By the way, I can still eat and get new tyres for the bike, so I am not totally fucked.  And my wife did choose the better weather, me I was used to it and didn't care.

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