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Biosphere

Tour 2013, Stages 16-20: The Alps, 16th - 20th July

A big bundle of stages, but these are the days that it's going to be won and lost so might as well group them together. I imagine these 5 days are making Sky and Froome very nervous.

Stage 16
Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
Testing Terrain
Never will a rest day have been as well deserved! After the Ventoux, the riders will be able to breathe a little easier for 24 hours in the Vaucluse. It is a short respite, as another series of difficulties await them. This stage, for example: it's only 168km, but this is testing terrain where the Tour has almost been lost in the past. You just have to look at the list of winners in Gap: Vinokourov, Fédrigo, Paulinho, Hushovd? I can also remember an attack made by Contador that messed up the strategy of the Schleck brothers? In short, this is a stage that will favour attacking riders. Some of them may get the opportunity to push themselves back into contention before the time trial...







Stage 17
Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
No Miracle Comebacks
The riders will have the blue waters of Lake Serre-Ponçon as a backdrop. It is a picture postcard setting. But don't imagine this is going to be a bucolic day? Indeed, this stage could turn out to be one of the turning points of the Tour. It has been conceived with the idea of spicing up the duel between the rouleurs who can climb well such as Froome and Contador, although on paper the likes of Wiggins and Quintana should not be excluded from consideration. I think that Belgian King of the Mountains Lucien Van Impe would have loved this course? One thing is sure: those riders who don't perform well on this stage will have some real problems on the next one to Alpe-d'Huez. There won't be any miracle comebacks







Stage 18
Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
Something Special
The frisson of excitement that went through the auditorium when we presented this stage at the Palais des Congrès in Paris last October proved we were spot on with our expectations: the double ascent of Alpe-d'Huez will be a sensation! This innovation comes at the end of a short stage that we wanted to be both nervous and dynamic. It's an ideal parcours for attackers, like the one that enabled Contador to turn things around at last year's Vuelta when everyone thought he was beaten. And, just as it suits him, it will also suit Purito Rodríguez? Climbing the Alpe twice for the first time in the 100th Tour will be something special...









Stage 19
Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
A Day for the Bold
What was true in the Pyrenees is also true in the Alps: although the Tour de France is coming to its end, we wanted to offer bold riders the kind of terrain that will allow them to have an impact on the outcome. The first name that comes to me when I think of a rider of this type is Pierre Rolland: he loves the Alps and this run of consecutive cols, notably the Glandon and the Madeleine, seems likely to suit him. It remains to be seen if he will have any room for manoeuvre or if it will come down to a question of who is the strongest if the overall classification is very tight? I would like to see the former scenario. I don't like to think of us already knowing the name of the final winner on the summit of Alpe-d'Huez.






Stage 20
Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
A Rider From the Top Rank
There is one last chance of glory? This was what we wanted to offer in putting together this stage, which is going to surprise many. It's only 125km, but what a parcours! There is barely any chance to rest. The riders will have to be on their mettle from the start to the finish at the "nearly new" summit of Semnoz. Although the yellow jersey may be safe, the podium places could well be decided on this climb, which measures 10.7km in length with an average gradient of 8.5%. We could end up with the same winner we had on Alpe-d'Huez... Rodríguez, for example. Or Froome? Or Contador. Whoever it is, it will be a rider from the top rank who will finish things off in style.






Biosphere

Don't forget Kathy's FP thread is here:

http://justcycling.myfastforum.or...15_to_21_inclusive_about4975.html
mazda

They're off.

Voigt and Sagan already in a break.
Also  Bennati (TST),  Roche (TST), Costa (MOV), Rojas (MOV), Boom (BEL) trying to get up the road for later shenanigans.
Plus others like Brutt, Navardauskas, Hansen, Degenkolb, DeGendt.

Strong break, FDJ chasing it down.
JohnD

i did think Voigt for the FP today
HuwB

Won't be around for the Alps, but it looks as the weather is set to change.
Some mumblings about the possibility of a thundery shower today, but that becomes likely for the following three days.
We may yet see a surprise or two on the challenging descents ahead.
Talking of which, Thibaut Pinot DNS.
SlowRower

HuwB wrote:
Won't be around for the Alps, but it looks as the weather is set to change.
Some mumblings about the possibility of a thundery shower today, but that becomes likely for the following three days.
We may yet see a surprise or two on the challenging descents ahead.
Talking of which, Thibaut Pinot DNS.


The descent from the Col de Sarenne will not be fun in the wet!
mazda

A different set of riders ahead now, some still the same.

Hansen (LTB), Gilbert and Quinziato (BMC), Gallopin (RTL), Gautier and Voeckler (EUC), Kadri and Riblon (ALM), Roche (TST), Trofimov (KAT), Astarloza (EUS), Costa (MOV), Coppel and Navarro (COF), Mori (LAM), Velits (OPQ), Navardauskas (GRS), Albasini and Meyer (OGE), Dumoulin (ARG), De Gendt and Hoogerland (VCD) and Marino (SOJ).

Jeanneson catching.

Peloton resting.
mazda

That's probably it for about 100km now.
Back in 2 and a bit hours.
Fontfroide

SlowRower wrote:


The descent from the Col de Sarenne will not be fun in the wet!


From all I hear and see, it is seriously dangerous descent in the dry.  It is not altogether obvious why they did that.  Although sitting at home we will get plenty of thrills and spills.  Hope no rider is hurt.
Fontfroide

mazda wrote:
A different set of riders ahead now, some still the same.

Hansen (LTB), Gilbert and Quinziato (BMC), Gallopin (RTL), Gautier and Voeckler (EUC), Kadri and Riblon (ALM), Roche (TST), Trofimov (KAT), Astarloza (EUS), Costa (MOV), Coppel and Navarro (COF), Mori (LAM), Velits (OPQ), Navardauskas (GRS), Albasini and Meyer (OGE), Dumoulin (ARG), De Gendt and Hoogerland (VCD) and Marino (SOJ).

Jeanneson catching.

Peloton resting.


Looks a good group.  What happened to my man Degenkolb?
Off for my nap.  Hope something has changed when I wake up.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
From all I hear and see, it is seriously dangerous descent in the dry.


When I descended the other week, I was very conscious of the poor surface, the narrow road and the proximity of buildings right next to the road. I'm far from a good descender, but even so, I was on the brakes a lot more than usual.

The trip from Alpe D'Huez to the Col is none too clever either - another very poor surface and narrow road with a long, unfenced drop in the early stages, which was quite unsettling.

Still, the did the dodgy looking section in the Dauphine and no-one came to grief, so hopefully a crash or accident won't be decisive.
berck

Fontfroide wrote:

Looks a good group.  What happened to my man Degenkolb?


Probably the same place as my man Vichot. Didn't make the break, which I was expecting today...
gerry12ie

Any Belkin with Froome?  I didn't see any??
gerry12ie

OK Mollema is there, but no LTD
berck

Quintana, Rogers, Porte, Froome, Contador, Mollema, J. Rodriguez and Valverde are together at the moment.
mazda

So has Kreuziger gone forward or backwards ?
berck

Now they are saying Kreuziger and Porte are with the group too.
mazda

Contador has eliminated Porte
berck

Contador trying to get a break to take more time on the downhill, it appears...
gerry12ie

Superhuman Porte back with the group
mazda

Is Mollema going to try an attack ?
Any good at descending ?
mazda

Froome has crashed ??!!
And Contador ?
mazda

Others waited.
phildange

Remarkable operation from the Portuguese Rui Costa . Well thought, well executed . I'm admirative . Too bad he was ordered to wait for Valverde the other famous day.
HuwB

Just about caught up.
So, what was the Contador thumbs up to Quintana all about?
Kirby reckons it was a "thank you", I reckon he got the you bit right but maybe the first word begins with "f"? Laughing
So Contador goes down and Kreuziger rides off into the distance?
Saxo: The poor man's La Vie Claire?  Wink

Some damaged done, too, to Bertie knee.
Fontfroide

phildange wrote:
Remarkable operation from the Portuguese Rui Costa . Well thought, well executed . I'm admirative . Too bad he was ordered to wait for Valverde the other famous day.


Totally agree.  Always thought he was a class rider.  And very glad he made up for his sacrifice the other day.
Fontfroide

HuwB wrote:
Just about caught up.
So, what was the Contador thumbs up to Quintana all about?
Kirby reckons it was a "thank you", I reckon he got the you bit right but maybe the first word begins with "f"? Laughing
So Contador goes down and Kreuziger rides off into the distance?


I wonder if you are right Huw.  Seemed to me that slowing down on a descent is slightly harder than on the flat.  furthermore, it seemed that maybe they all did slow down a bit.  Hence the thumbs up.  Although I will watch again to be sure.
HuwB

Today's example of why climbing times are a law unto themselves:

Col de Manse
2013:9,5 km@5,2%
---19:16---average speed 29.58 km/h(Rui Costa)                                      

2011:9,5 km@5,2%---20:04---average speed 28.41 km/h(Contador-Evans-S.Sanchez)
---20:25---average speed 27.92 km/h(F.Schleck-A.Schleck-Voeckler group)

Remember, Contador attacked several times to create that gap.
So, Costa, 48 seconds faster, today on almost the identical course.

Doping or variables?
JohnD

Was Evans a participant or a passenger that day?
Boogerd_Fan

he did do some turns at the front when they saw that Shleck was distanced iirc... but the majority of pulls were by Bertie and Sanchez. He may even have waited until the descent started to bridge across... and it was Schleck who didn't have the balls to follow.

Rain coming for the Alps?? Reminds me of Froome's disastrous day in Tirreno, with Nibs attacking on the 1st of 2 ascents of that 18% brute. Rain could mean it gets even more tasty. Unfortunately also a lot more dangerous.
Fontfroide

We just had the rain that is meant to be moving to the Alps.  Fairly fierce, but didn't last too long.
HuwB

I see that Cav had a dose of the Tour trots today and did anyone else see Sagan's pallor at the foot of the Col du Manse?
Never seen a rider's face that colour shade before.

Electrical storms a possibility for the Alps and a wet ITT finish on the cards.
Biosphere

In the Swiss Alps at the moment and lots of thunder rumbling away in the distance. The air is the haziest I have ever seen it here, and gliders soaring around on the thermals, so I am not surprised that it is now breaking after the heat build up. Wet forecast for the ITT finish tomorrow could see standing room only on the Tony Martin bandwagon!

Saw we had lots of comments on the Ventoux climb and Froome's performance. For what it's worth I'm still not seeing anything that convinces me he's doping, but his career trajectory makes it difficult to convince myself that he's not. If that makes sense.

I think there is value in the type of stuff that the likes of Vayar do and his methodology is OK. It's his conclusions that are not supported by what the numbers are telling him. The time of the whole climb versus the latter stages is interesting as it started slow and got quicker. Time it all and it doesn't seem that fast. Time the latter stages and it approaches record pace. Then there was the tailwind - that's more difficult to factor. That said, there have been several comparisons (not just from Ventoux but over the Tour) of SRM data to stopwatch derived wattages (which include lots of assumptions about weight, air and rolling resistance) and they line up pretty well with measured wattages - plus minus about 2.5%. Gravity is the big, big component and it's well known and the same for everybody. Everywhere. Hence the stopwatch being pretty accurate for calculations of uphill wattages. Froome's numbers are about right for what one the best in the world could do cleanly, which is fair enough since one of the best in the world should be winning the Tour. Should it be Froome though? And the ITT bothers me.

Saw Nieve being mentioned as a possible clean benchmark, but I wonder if his total numbers were that much different for the whole climb given that he was out on his own for much longer and didn't have the benefit of drafting for as long as Froome - that's worth about 0.2W/kg. With the supposed demise of Euskatel at the end of the year, he was basically having an interview with Saxo and trying to impress his future boss instead of sharing the work. Froome on the other hand was shepherded by Kennaugh and Porte and benefited from Quitana's token efforts a little bit.

With the mentions of institutionalised team programs, I can't help but wonder if some of the clinic hardcore have become institutionalised in their own way and like those that have spent too long in prison and find it difficult to adjust to life outside and prefer the old certainties.

If the weather is favourable and Alpe d'Heuz is raced hard it will give a better data set than Ventoux as it is climbed more often (better quality of comparison) and things like the wind don't really come into play (less of it and switchbacks tend to mitigate its effect). And we get two sets of times Smile
gerry12ie

Bio, my feeling is we will get two sets of times as well - just in a different way Wink

Nice to have the views of our two holidaymakers, although the weather here kind of makes it feel like a holiday anyway.  Just with added work.  After our passport fiasco last month I'm trying to reschedule a week in Aquitane at the end of August or a week in Switzerland at the end of September.  I would opt for the Jura but doubt though that my powers of persuasion will be enough to save my pasty skin from the South of France and the warmer option, as the misses likes her sunshine a bit too much for that.

I do read the data and enjoy some of the debate around it but I try not to get too hypnotised by it as any set of figures usually comes loaded with enough variables to be used or abused to suit a specific argument.  With Froome I prefer to let my incredulity be my guide.  I have not seen a development as complete as his before, and experience tells me that in pro cycling zero to hero can only mean one thing.

The Clinic is a fucking nuthouse.  That said there is the genus of a decent discussion about TUE's going on at the moment that I would like to see developed, I reckon if they were out in the open we might really learn a lot...
mazda

HuwB wrote:
Just about caught up.
So, what was the Contador thumbs up to Quintana all about?
Kirby reckons it was a "thank you", I reckon he got the you bit right but maybe the first word begins with "f"? Laughing
So Contador goes down and Kreuziger rides off into the distance?
Saxo: The poor man's La Vie Claire?  Wink


I didn't see it as being ironic.
A genuine thankyou, but with clear undertones given Stage 9, to Quintana/Valverde for not attacking him on the descent after the fall.
Having seen the footage, which was 100% from behind Porte/Froome/Contador, I guess Mollema was made to do all the work.
Didn't go flat out but didn't wait either.

As for the etiquette.
If someone has crashed as a result of going too fast and trying to drop you then I don't see why you should necessarily wait for them.
After all, if they gap you they won't wait.
So it seems to me that the situation is loaded a little unfairly, unless you have a bad crash.
However if you deem the Yellow jersey was innocent collateral in someones elses accident then I guess you would wait.

I guess Froome was well pissed with Contador.
Hard to tell but that is probably as animated as we'll see him.
mazda

Looks like I got that wrong.
Contador believed Quintana had "attacked".
Quintana said he just maintained a decent pace to maximise his gap in the White Jersey.

That explains why a cautious Porte was able to bring them back after about 4 or 5 km of effort.

So far today Kittel leading at the finish.
SlowRower

Biosphere wrote:
...Ventoux climb...

The time of the whole climb versus the latter stages is interesting as it started slow and got quicker. Time it all and it doesn't seem that fast. Time the latter stages and it approaches record pace.


The debate in the Clinic amused me on this. Folk had got the idea into their mind that Froome's ascent was the fastest ever, whereas it was was a lot slower than the fastest Lance-era non ITT efforts. Someone then identified that the second part of Froome's ascent was one of the fastest, casually disregarding the fact that if you're riding "slowly" in a bunch at the start of a climb, you'll be able to ride faster in the second half.

Someone else said that you can ignore the first 5k as it's a false flat and so only the part of the climb where Froome was fast should be considered. Convenient is that! My climbing performnces are good if you ignore the sections where they're not so good. This first 5k averages around 5%, which seems rather large to ignore to me! (It might be easy to climb, but it doesn't happen at no cost to the body.)

The more strident folk in the Clinic would do well to observe the fact that even if you are right on an issue in general (in this case Froome doping) then it doesn't mean everything you say on the subject is also correct.
mr shifter

That seems to be a good assessment.

We had something similar this year here, with the climb of Mur du Huy.

Finished so far.
WESTRA L. VCD in 54' 02''
2.O'GRADY S. OGE in 55' 24'' at 1' 22''
3.KITTEL M. ARG in 55' 50'' at 1' 48''


Last rider to finish
30.STANNARD I. SKYin 1h 00' 21''at 6' 19'
Someone had astroll round the course.
mazda

Is cutoff 25% again ?
A time below 50 mins will start to eliminate the slowest.
mr shifter

Checkpoint No.1 Puy-Sanières - km 6.5
Last rider to pass
[b]5.MARTIN T. OPQin 16' 03''at 0' 22''
[/b]
Classification
1.WESTRA L. VCD in 15' 41''
2.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 15' 51'' at 0' 10''
3.MOSER M. CAN in 16' 03'' at 0' 22''
4.PAULINHO S. TST in 16' 03'' at 0' 22''
5.MARTIN T. OPQ in 16' 03'' at 0' 22''


No.2 Picoune (SAVINES-LE-LAC) - km 13.5
Last rider to pass
6.MARTIN T. OPQin 23' 15''at 0' 10''
Classification
1.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 23' 05''
2.PAULINHO S. TST in 23' 11'' at 0' 06''
3.WESTRA L. VCD in 23' 14'' at 0' 09''
4.MOSER M. CAN in 23' 14'' at 0' 09''
5.O'GRADY S. OGE in 23' 15'' at 0' 10''
6.MARTIN T. OPQin 23' 15''at 0' 10''

No.3 Réallon - km 20.0
Last rider to pass
8.MARTIN T. OPQin 41' 10''at 0' 57''
Classification
1.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 40' 13''
2.WESTRA L. VCD in 40' 26'' at 0' 13''
3.MOSER M. CAN in 40' 29'' at 0' 16''
4.SICARD R. EUS in 40' 40'' at 0' 27''
5.O'GRADY S. OGE in 41' 08'' at 0' 55''
6.PAULINHO S. TST in 41' 08'' at 0' 55''
7.ROY J. FDJ in 41' 09'' at 0' 56''
8.MARTIN T. OPQ in 41' 10'' at 0' 57''
9.HIVERT J. SOJ in 41' 29'' at 1' 16''
10.BOOM L. BEL in 41' 36'' at 1' 23''

Fastest at No 2

No.2 Picoune (SAVINES-LE-LAC) - km 13.5
Last rider to pass
1.DE GENDT T. VCD in 22' 30''


Finish CHORGES - km 32.0
Last rider to finish
3.MARTIN T. OPQin 54' 39''at 0' 37''

Stage classification
1.WESTRA L. VCD in 54' 02''
2.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 54' 15'' at 0' 13''
3.MARTIN T. OPQ in 54' 39'' at 0' 37''
4.MOSER M. CAN in 54' 53'' at 0' 51''
5.ROY J. FDJ in 55' 00'' at 0' 58''
6.SICARD R. EUS in 55' 01'' at 0' 59''
7.O'GRADY S. OGE in 55' 24'' at 1' 22''
8.KITTEL M. ARG in 55' 50'' at 1' 48''
9.HIVERT J. SOJ in 55' 56'' at 1' 54''
10.PAULINHO S. TST in 56' 22'' at 2' 20''
70 riders have arrived

79 Now Finished
10.MILLAR David176 GRS in 56' 18'' at 02' 16
mr shifter

New leader all the way before the downhill

No.3 Réallon - km 20.0
Classification
1.DE GENDT T. VCD in 39' 56''
2.TAARAMÄE R. COF in 40' 09'' at 0' 13''
3.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 40' 13'' at 0' 17''
4.WESTRA L. VCD in 40' 26'' at 0' 30''
5.MOSER M. CAN in 40' 29'' at 0' 33''
6.SICARD R. EUS in 40' 40'' at 0' 44''

Finish CHORGES - km 32.0
Stage classification
1.WESTRA L. VCD in 54' 02''
2.DE GENDT T. VCD in 54' 14'' at 0' 12''

3.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 54' 15'' at 0' 13''
4.MARTIN T. OPQ in 54' 39'' at 0' 37''
5.MOSER M. CAN in 54' 53'' at 0' 51''
6.ROY J. FDJ in 55' 00'' at 0' 58''
7.SICARD R. EUS in 55' 01'' at 0' 59''
8.O'GRADY S. OGE in 55' 24'' at 1' 22''
9.KITTEL M. ARG in 55' 50'' at 1' 48''
10.HIVERT J. SOJ in 55' 56'' at 1' 54''


Finish CHORGES - km 32.0
Last rider to finish
2.TAARAMAE R.  COF in 54' 13'' at 0' 11''

Stage classification
1.WESTRA L. VCD in 54' 02''
2.TAARAMÄE R. COF in 54' 13'' at 0' 11''
3.DE GENDT T. VCD in 54' 14'' at 0' 12''
4.DE MARCHI A. CAN in 54' 15'' at 0' 13''
5.MARTIN T. OPQ in 54' 39'' at 0' 37''
6.MOSER M. CAN in 54' 53'' at 0' 51''

Sorry about the delay and thought I had posted
went off to watch live but Kirby is still talking about previous stages while we watch riders finish.
Oh that's Tee Jay blah blah.
mazda

Yes, Westra took the first downhill quite leisurely, but obviosuly put his foot down for the final section.
phildange

Very atypic ITT today . The first climb is full of variations of %, and they have to keep energy for the second climb .
Many different choices of bikes, some road bikes, some ITT bikes, some mixtures . A good brain will be useful today .
Weather forecast : thunderstorms expected . This can creates differences between riders too .

Bad news : JC Péraud broke his collarbone this morning . He will try today though, but his Top 10 rank is dead . Péraud and Pinot out, the last not ridiculous GC French have gone .


Has anyone seen this XIIth chapel standing right in the middle of this Mountain lake ?
Nolte

really it has been a bad tour for the french

fdj - their leader developing a fear of descents (kind of if i developed a fear of calculators)
europcar - pierre rollands main objective has been to get over cat 4 climbs first while voeckleurs main objective is to stay at the very back of the peloton to get on tv.
ag2r - jc perauds broken collarbone
cofidis - well daniel navarro is riding ok i guess.
saur - been in breaks though it was dissapointing julien simons attack being caught.
mr shifter

Nolte wrote:

saur - been in breaks though it was dissapointing julien simons attack being caught.

That ride of his into Lyon will stick in my memory for ever. ?
The real "Old Fashioned" TDF attmosphere came through those French crowds and none posing/running for the camera's but just enjoying the "TDF Carnival"
phildange

Rain has started . Let's watch it as Middle-Age God's Judgment . If Froome has taken undetectable High-Tech Nasa dope, he will crash in a descent . If he doesn't, he's clean ...

TJ best time, rocket time . As rain has started now, TJ jas many chances to win this stage !
mazda

Clearly Contador crashed to make Froome more nervous for the following days.
So Froome will come down the hill at the speed of Wiggins.

Jeanneson is the next looking to disturb the standings.

Zubeldia #31 at 2nd chrono.
i.e. will finish outside top 50.
What exactly does Zubeldia add to a team these days ?
Is he just a well paid domestique ?
mr shifter

Fastest so Far

VAN GARDEREN T...BMC RACING TEAM

Times Pos.
Chrono 1 - km 6.5 15'38'' 4e à 00'22''
Chrono 2 - km 13.5 22'53'' 3e à 00'23''
Chrono 3 - km 20.0 39'47'' 1er
Finish - km 32.0 53'24'' 1er

Now It's raining
mazda

phildange wrote:
TJ best time, rocket time . As rain has started now, TJ jas many chances to win this stage !

Finally got his San Jose form back.
Nice to see.
mazda

mazda wrote:

Zubeldia #31 at 2nd chrono.
i.e. will finish outside top 50.

I should just keep quiet.
He's finished, currently ranked #20.
Still shows he wasn't trying too hard on the hills  Smile
mazda

Porte took 8'38" to do the 7 km downhill (no wet).

De Gendt took 7'14"
Martin took 7'12"
phildange

Valverde 1st time at the first intermediary point .
He he, he deserves something  Don Alejandro .
Fontfroide

Porte resting for the next few days?

I wish he told someone like me than I would not pick him.  On the other hand if I were a bit smarter or wiser, I might have guessed.
mazda

Schleck has done the second hill quicker than anyone so far (I think).
phildange

Valverde still best at point 2, but Martinez is 3'' better at point 1 .
gerry12ie

Andy Schleck third, eh?  Who'd have thunk it??
mazda

Ah.
Now we have the proper climbers.
AV 59" up on TJVG at cp3.
mazda

gerry12ie wrote:
Andy Schleck third, eh?  Who'd have thunk it??

He lost all that on the first descent.
Otherwise he'd be in the hot seat.
mazda

Rodriguez leads at cp2.
Quintana only 8th at cp1.
phildange

Contador 1st at point 1 .
Valverde first at the end for now . 1'21 better than TJ !
Nolte

evans just outside of the top 150 on the tt
mazda

Froome only #2.
Kreuziger fastest for the first descent - 6'51 - but Contador still quicker overall.
Fontfroide

Kwiatowski really has made sure he made his mark, a revelation of the tour as they say.
Nolte

kwiatkowski goes 2nd at the finish.

10 left on the road.
mazda

Froome loses seconds on the descent - 30 sec slower than Kreuziger.
So Roman wins the award for the quickest descender.
Maybe he should attack on the next downhill.
mazda

Rodriguez going to claim another spot up the GC.
Has 25 seconds in hand on Ten Dam.
Suppose there is a chance to catch Quintana as well, maybe.
Nolte

jc peraud has reportedly crashed
Boogerd_Fan

men against boys out there today..

Bauke/Quintana looking slow and brittle... the Spanish vets killing everyone except the illegal alien.
mazda

Nolte wrote:
jc peraud has reportedly crashed

oh no
yes, says he crashed again and abandoned Sad
mazda

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
men against boys out there today..

Bauke/Quintana looking slow and brittle... the Spanish vets killing everyone except the illegal alien.

Quintana just started slow.
Has pulled back time on AC since cp1.
Mollema will finish well  Smile
Fontfroide

Very fast change for Froome.  I think the fastest.  Must have been working with F1 teams.
Nolte

Fontfroide wrote:
Very fast change for Froome.  I think the fastest.  Must have been working with F1 teams.


team sky spent 8 months testing every centimeter of the course to see when was a good time to change the bike. what was surprising, some of the points seem pointless.

quintana coming 3rd at the checkpoint, putting more time into kwiatkowski
Nolte

mazda wrote:
Nolte wrote:
jc peraud has reportedly crashed

oh no
yes, says he crashed again and abandoned Sad


showed it now, bad one, on the same side. shame.
Fontfroide

Stunning that Kwiatkowski almost beat Quintana.  That Pole has entered the big time.
mazda

Froome only #4 though he stopped for that bike before the checkpoint.
Sneaky.
mazda

A bit like F1 sectors we have a different rider fastest in all sections.

S1 - Contador obviously.
S2 - Kreuziger
S3 - Rodriguez (only by 1 second over Quintana).

Rodriguez leads S4 from Kwiatkowski.

I'd get your money on J Rod for tomorrows queen stage.
Or is Friday the queen stage ?
mazda

mazda wrote:
A bit like F1 sectors we have a different rider fastest in all sections.

S1 - Contador obviously.
S2 - Kreuziger
S3 - Rodriguez (only by 1 second over Quintana).

Rodriguez leads S4 from Kwiatkowski.


No, Froome takes final sector by 15 seconds to pip AC for the stage win.
Fontfroide

I would say there might be three pretenders for the Queen Stage, depending on where the racing happens.

Alpe gotta be the glory stage.  Three stages like this, almost like the Giro.

Going to a pal tomorrow to watch it on one of those home movie giant screens.
gerry12ie

Stage 21 - Chris Froome please Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
HuwB

Well, it certainly was a course to level the playing field.
An unusual looking top 10 or so, to say the least.
Poor Peraud, down right on the fracture.
Incredibly gutsy to try............but I wish he hadn't.

Right, back to packing.....
phildange

Fontfroide wrote:

Going to a pal tomorrow to watch it on one of those home movie giant screens.


If the screen is really giant, you can check if it's true what they say : Does Chris'skin indeed  emit  on and off phosphorent glows ?
gerry12ie

Fontfroide wrote:
Stunning that Kwiatkowski almost beat Quintana.  That Pole has entered the big time.


I told you he was the real deal FF Wink
mazda

I'd say he arrived in the Tirreno-Adriatico.
4th to Nibali, Froome and Contador - a stronger lineup than the TdF.
Boogerd_Fan

Pfff.. I had a sneaky feeling that the Belkin guys would wilt today. I expect it to continue in next few days too. Mainly because their recovery and preparation is genuine, and their fatigue is now affecting the performance.

Still for the anti-Sky brigade its quite good news. Bertie and Saxo's attacking tactics in next 3 days could have been a concern for Mollema and Belkin had he still been in 2nd on GC. Now SKY won't have any allies and will have to defend a lead over Bertie.
gerry12ie

mazda wrote:
I'd say he arrived in the Tirreno-Adriatico.
4th to Nibali, Froome and Contador - a stronger lineup than the TdF.


He first caught my eye at De Panne two years ago, but it was his tussle with Moser at the Tour of Poland last year (the best racing on the TV last July btw) that underlined his potential.  He had a super TA but I thought he was exceptional in Flanders where he was probably only put up the road after Tom crashed out yet he was so strong until the big guns took over.  

I don't envy him his possible career choices though!  Go head to head with Sagan in the Classics or make a bid for GT glory against Froome, Porte and Sky? Crying or Very sad
Fontfroide

mazda wrote:
I'd say he arrived in the Tirreno-Adriatico.
4th to Nibali, Froome and Contador - a stronger lineup than the TdF.


I guess I should be less casual.  I don't think that ANYONE "arrives" in the Tirreno Adriatico, except for cycling fanatics and sports geeks.  "Arriving" means doing really well at the Tour, or maybe the Giro, or one of the Monuments.  That is what I meant.  Arriving to the rest of the world.  They probably knew about him in Poland when he was twenty.  

Just nitpicking.  I HAD heard about him before and almost picked him for my teams.  I kind of thought of "arriving" as being in everyone's list of "revelations" of the Tour.  But I do agree, no one comes out of nowhere.
Boogerd_Fan

unless their name is FROOME!

i'll get my coat.
Bartali

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Pfff.. I had a sneaky feeling that the Belkin guys would wilt today. I expect it to continue in next few days too. Mainly because their recovery and preparation is genuine, and their fatigue is now affecting the performance.


Is that because they haven't trained for a three week tour like Sky did? Wink
Nolte

Bartali wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Pfff.. I had a sneaky feeling that the Belkin guys would wilt today. I expect it to continue in next few days too. Mainly because their recovery and preparation is genuine, and their fatigue is now affecting the performance.


Is that because they haven't trained for a three week tour like Sky did? Wink


yeah all the other 21 teams are just sitting and posting to twitter and eating yoghurt while sky are working hard at training Very Happy
Boogerd_Fan

Bartali wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Pfff.. I had a sneaky feeling that the Belkin guys would wilt today. I expect it to continue in next few days too. Mainly because their recovery and preparation is genuine, and their fatigue is now affecting the performance.


Is that because they haven't trained for a three week tour like Sky did? Wink


Chet Pipkin will need to lure a former SKY rider to the 2014 Belkin ranks so they can learn the secrets of marginal gains. Very Happy
mazda

Fontfroide wrote:
 I don't think that ANYONE "arrives" in the Tirreno Adriatico


Very Happy
That tickled me.
mazda

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Pfff.. I had a sneaky feeling that the Belkin guys would wilt today. I expect it to continue in next few days too. Mainly because their recovery and preparation is genuine, and their fatigue is now affecting the performance.

I'm hoping it will make the Belkin boys more adventurous.
Mollema was clearly not going to do anything while sitting 2nd in GC.
Maybe he can go off down the road with Kreuziger or somebody after the first ascent of AdH.
Bartali

Here's hoping!!!
Biosphere

Reading that Sky have given Froome's power data for the last two years to L'Equipe. Published today.

Also saw curves comparing Froome's power output vs duration compared to Lemond and Armstrong. Froome and Lemond look very similar. Armstrong very different to them in that for the longer durations he could sustain a much higher power output - up to 10%.
Boogerd_Fan

Is that the real data, or the one that is supposed to prove he's normal??

Do SKY have people on their payroll to make graphs to please the tabloids? I'm seeing an opening!
SlowRower

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Is that the real data, or the one that is supposed to prove he's normal??

Do SKY have people on their payroll to make graphs to please the tabloids? I'm seeing an opening!


Whilst I detect a certain amount of tongue in cheek, your response hints at the pros' reluctance to release data - if we armchair experts don't see what we want, we simply disbelieve the accuracy of the data!

That said, data files are very easy to doctor, and with Sky leaving no stone unturned in their preparations - except gearing, tactics and clothing - who's to say what deviousness they have employed before releasing the data? Smile
Fontfroide

I must say that I really don't know what kind of information some of you would want to prove that some rider, in this case Froome, does not dope.  They supply data, some rightly say it could be doctored.  They pass blood and urine tests and some  say they could cheat and not get caught.  They have biological passports and some say they could be bypassed or somehow doctored.  All these suspicions seem to be correct or at least plausible, people have cheated for years and got away with it.  It slightly bothers me that I have read no one saying what has Quintana been doing in Colombia without racing for two months, and being the only guy who can climb with Froome.  Froome spins a small gear, attacking those who have higher gears and he must be drugged.  Froome and Sky says they do it all the time in training.

All of what some of you say COULD be true, but sometimes you should just HEAR how you sound.  I admit that in a world where politicians, lawyers, scientists, priests, bankers, etc lie, cheat and give false data, one can be suspicious of data and words.  I have lots of sympathy, as I myself am a very critical person.  Some people say I am too critical.  But really, sometimes you should listen to yourselves and get a perspective.

On the other hand, I wonder what exactly would satisfy the Froome and Sky critics.  I am not looking for an answer, but I do wonder if anything at all would be enough.  I have a feeling that in some cases, the dislike, the distrust goes deeper.  IN my case, I have lots of trouble liking Sky becasue they are rich and they are Murdoch.  I still manage to like and respect some of the riders though.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
I must say that I really don't know what kind of information some of you would want to prove that some rider, in this case Froome, does not dope.


Apparently the data only start at Vuelta 2011. Data prior to this, when Froome was autobus-fodder, would be very useful in making an assessment of him.

I doubt this will be forthcoming, so he's obviously guilty as sin! (I thought I'd post this to save Boogie the trouble... Smile)
MAILLOT JAUNE

Fontfroide wrote:
I must say that I really don't know what kind of information some of you would want to prove that some rider, in this case Froome, does not dope.

Are you Dave Brailsford????  Wink
pantanifan

Fontfroide wrote:
I must say that I really don't know what kind of information some of you would want to prove that some rider, in this case Froome, does not dope. 


I think we've all been there (in my case with pantani among others), where we enjoyed watching cycling, supported somebody as a "fan"/ "fanboy", and wanted to believe it was all above-board, only to be disappointed later, and so the default position (almost in self-defence) is to assume the winner is doping - the likes of Armstrong claim that it is not possible to win a GT without doping, but if that is true then the second-placed rider, 3rd, 4th, 5th place, etc. all deserve to be scrutinized to the same extent

I prefer to assume innocence until proven otherwise, but cycling as a sport has made that quite a difficult approach to defend at times...

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