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Biosphere

Tour 2013, Stage 15: The Giant, Provence, 14th July

I'm off on holidays for nearly two weeks (lucky me) so not sure how active I'll be here for the final week. Will certainly be dropping in, but I'll throw up the remaining stages before I go. I can imagine Sky being stronger here than their form has suggested the last week and Froome doing some more significant damage. Less scope for tactics from the other teams too here too I think. Only one climb so difficult to attack early and a recovery day ahead means riders can go a bit deeper to counter moves. There, that's enough foolish predictions for me to have put the KOD on the notion of Froome being untroubled Wink

Jean-François Pescheux wrote:
A Fully Deserved Winner
This stage is the longest of this 100th Tour. It is also one of the most prestigious because nobody wins by chance on the Ventoux, especially not on 14 July? There are two scenarios: either a group gets away from a long way out and maintains enough of an advantage for the escapees to fight it between themselves; or the leaders shut down the race as far as the foot of the climb, transforming the stage into one enormous hill-climb! Depending on the weather, a lot of damage could be done today. Imagine what it could be like if there's blazing heat all day? Whether you're in the yellow jersey or not, if you do badly on this climb you will lose a quarter of an hour!






JohnD

Have a great holiday Bio!
MAILLOT JAUNE

Thanks for posting the remaining stages - enjoy your holiday Bio and enjoy Le Tour!
gerry12ie

Yes, have a good holiday
Biosphere

Thanks for the holiday wishes. I'll do my best to enjoy myself Smile

A reminder that Kathy's FP thread is here

http://justcycling.myfastforum.or...15_to_21_inclusive_about4975.html

phildange wrote:
This year I don't think the main contenders will ride sweetly together . Quintana is Colombian, i.e crazy by birth, Alejandro will maybe throw a glorious firelight after his omen, but I rely more ( hope ? ) on Bertie . I'd like so much a real giants mano a mano that I can even forget he's no more the sparkling Contador .


And Froome is going to take every second he can get on days like tomorrow . . . I'm not sure to expect much from Contador - mix of saving himself for the heart of week 3 and it being a more straight forward stage with less chance of ambush etc.
Nolte

enjoy bio but you don't need me to tell you that.

it's intriging tomorrow with ventoux at the end after 220 of flattish rolling roads. it really depends on how those 220 km are ridden in to who has what left in the legs by the time they get to ventoux. i think the first 220km might  have a neutralising affect on the gc contenders and i don't envisage that teams want a tough start to the stage.

of course, we will see a high speed first hour and tough riding all day now. this would be the reason that the teams shred my curriculum vitae.
HuwB

Yeah, happy hols, Bio.
I won't be here from all the big Alpine stages and Paris, either.
Will be in Southern France, though.

Valverde to do what he did on his last Ventoux visit.
Sky's apparent weakness should see things kick off much earlier.
Might even have 200kms of crosswinds, too.
MAILLOT JAUNE

Happy Bastille Day everyone! Lets hope for a great stage today!
HuwB

So, we have Sagan up the road, in a gp of 10, 2 groups of 2 and an avaerage race speed of 50.5kms for almost 2 hours?

By my reckoning, we'll have 85 kms live and over 30 minutes ahead of the fastest schedule.
This must be the new speed peloton...
phildange

Purchasers have stopped their effort . Sagan's group about 5'30 ahead . Chavanel, Losada, Impey with Sagan .
Only 4' ahead now . Europcar leading the peloton fast . The breakaway has refused to let Rolland in .
Only 9 in the break . Peloton, still led by Europcar, at 3'30 .
Boogerd_Fan

tailwind until Bedouin...

Sagan must really want max pts at the Intermediate Sprint after 200km. Assuming he get's it, must be closing in on being mathematically uncatchable.
phildange

Movistar working with Europcar . Quintana ?
HuwB

Just 90kms to go. Speed going up.
phildange

Pretty fast speed since the start, well over 30° temperature; we can expect some heavy losses today .
HuwB

The are a full hour ahead of the middle schedule, 45 minutes faster than the fastest.
24C on Ventoux.
phildange

24 at the top, but 34 at the bottom I think
kathy

Scary mountain even looking at it fom below!
phildange

Oh Oh ! Sky takes the lead at 15 kms to the bottom .
phildange

Pinot ( bronchitis ) and Cunego dropped by the peloton .
Interesting fight for the White Jersey today too .
Fontfroide

Poor young fellow Pinot.  Not had a good time at all.  A bit embarrassing for him, and hundreds of French journalists.
phildange

Bronchitis for Pinot, and he's not allowed to antibiotics .
Chavanel left alone ahead of the breakaway .
Rolland, who spent his energy to catch the breakaway in vain, can't follow the peloton already ! ( Doesn't look very smart that guy ...)
MAILLOT JAUNE

And Sagan doing a wheelie just before the peloton catch him. You've gotta hand it to him - bit of show-boating never did anyone any harm!
phildange

Andy is dead, stuck on the road .
Biosphere

phildange wrote:
Andy is dead, stuck on the road .


And Klöden joins him. Car unpacked and sitting in front of TV Smile
MAILLOT JAUNE

phildange wrote:
Andy is dead, stuck on the road .

No change there, then!
mazda

Good to see Nieve going up the road.
Will Quintana catch him.
gerry12ie

Does Froome have a Kindle instead of SRM?  Whatever it is it looks like a riveting read... Rolling Eyes
phildange

Starting being afraid . Apart Quintana, nobody will do something ? Still 2 guys with Froome .
Fontfroide

mazda wrote:
Good to see Nieve going up the road.
Will Quintana catch him.


Yep, just did it, dropped him.
phildange

Kreuziger-Contador MUST try . The peloton has slowed down, Froome asked for it .
gerry12ie

Marginal gains in living colour
gerry12ie

Still three Belkin
mazda

this is the point where Porte and Froome ride away is it not ?

Porte looks left, sees no-one.
Looks right, sees only Contador.
I'm sure he gave a knowing smile.
Biosphere

gerry12ie wrote:
Still three Belkin


Not now. It's basically a replay of last Saturday so far.
phildange

Porte and Froome against Conti alone . Finally, Sky team not so bad . Don Alejandro's dead . Surprise .
Fontfroide

totally stunning, totally
gerry12ie

Fucking ridiculous more like
phildange

Someone has to check the hidden engine in Froome's bike !
Biosphere

Froome is dropping the motorbikes. Swiss TV using the unbelievable word.
Fontfroide

Incroyable.
Fontfroide

Motorcycles suck
mazda

surprised he tried the same on Quintana
gerry12ie

Excuse the language but this is just totally fucking ridiculous.  This bloke couldn't beat a clearly doped to the gills Cobo two years ago!

Tour de Farce
gerry12ie

That's Rasmussen grade
phildange

His manager has asked Froome to slow down ! Ha Ha ! this is highly suspect .
Biosphere

I'm actually wondering if he's made too big an effort too soon?
phildange

Good reaction from Ten Dam . Bravo . Alejandro was not dead, after all .
cadence

Froome = Pharmstrong
gerry12ie

If I was Bio I would have FP'd Froome for all the stages next week - including Paris Wink
phildange

Biosphere wrote:
I'm actually wondering if he's made too big an effort too soon?


No, they said on French TV there was a frenetic talk on Sky's radio, and after a while, Froome slowed down .
mazda

Can't Contador help Nieve ?
gerry12ie

Froome: All your base are belong to us
Biosphere

Biosphere wrote:
I'm actually wondering if he's made too big an effort too soon?


Embarassed
Fontfroide

phildange wrote:
His manager has asked Froome to slow down ! Ha Ha ! this is highly suspect .


This is a bit wild, who says this, Thierry Adam, who.  Are we utterly sure?  Do we really know what was said, by whom?  Even if there is suspicious behaviour, we really do't know.
mazda

Where JRod come from ?
gerry12ie

I'm sorry folks but you can forget Sestriere and Hautacam, that's your new reference point for dirty racing.  There can't be any other reason.  At all.
mazda

Beetroot juice.
ventoux

Martin pulls back to finish 10th.... wasn't he dropped by the Froome group quite early on the climb?
phildange

Wow ! Unless they shot some lion's blood in his veins when he was a kid ( which is allowed ), maybe in 2/3 years the UCI will name a new winner ... Or Froome is really a Great one .
But this sudden slowing down after a long talk, and the fact Froome was able to drop Quintana easily in the end, ehm ...
gerry12ie

The clinic is 404 Not Found.  Froome has actually broken the internet! Wink
ventoux

gerry12ie wrote:
The clinic is 404 Not Found.  Froome has actually broken the internet! Wink
Very Happy  Shocked
Bartali

Joke!  Anyone have a stop watch on that climb?
cadence

I wanted to believe Froome was riding clean, after todays stage I seriously have my doubts.
gerry12ie

Bartali wrote:
Joke!  Anyone have a stop watch on that climb?


Yes - it read July 1999 Wink
Fontfroide

ventoux wrote:
Martin pulls back to finish 10th.... wasn't he dropped by the Froome group quite early on the climb?


Drugs.
Fontfroide

mazda wrote:
Where JRod come from ?


Drugs.
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Joke!  Anyone have a stop watch on that climb?


Well, I do know that Movistar managed 47kph for the first 210kms.
41.7kph stage average.
Tailwind all the way and on the climb.

Not telling you lot what Mr Sutton said, in Aber, last night. Smile  Wink
HuwB

gerry12ie wrote:
The clinic is 404 Not Found.  Froome has actually broken the internet! Wink


Even without their number 1 poster, who is serving a 3 day ban and must be head butting the wall in frustration. Very Happy
phildange

Beside the great question, I'd like to salute the enormous effort made by Mollema/Ten Dam, and also Peraud, as we could see, 3 guys who keep their top 10 rank while they can't use the top quality products made in Murdoch's Mafia labs .
Valverde showed a great courage today too, after his energy loss on friday .
White and polka dot jerseys changing today .
gerry12ie

HuwB wrote:

Not telling you lot what Mr Sutton said, in Aber, last night. Smile  Wink


Don't eat yellow snow?

Never back the bottom weight in a handicap??

Wink
gerry12ie

Here we go - Oleg Tinkov tweets:


HuwB

Early reports are 49 minutes for the last 15.65kms, about the same as Contador and Schleck in 2009...............into a strong headwind.
RR also reports about 12% below the record.

Movistar's pace also must have had a negative effect.

Yeah. Ride of the day: Mike Snow.

In other news, I hear that the UCI management committee have asked McQuaid to withdraw his nomination......
Biosphere

Quintana looked unhappy I thought, but I'm not sure I've paid much attention to him on a podium this week to see off he's normally happier.
Bartali

HuwB wrote:
Early reports are 49 minutes for the last 15.65kms, about the same as Contador and Schleck in 2009...............into a strong headwind.
RR also reports about 12% below the record.

Movistar's pace also must have had a negative effect.

Yeah. Ride of the day: Mike Snow.

In other news, I hear that the UCI management committee have asked McQuaid to withdraw his nomination......


Interesting .... so Froome is a whole lot slower and the rest of the peloton are way off the pace?

Interesting re McQuaid.  That would be good!!
phildange

The question is this incredible acceleration, all along sitting on the saddle . But well, Kenyan gods maybe .
Slapshot 3

Record was an ITT in the Dauphine...... not a 242KM tour stage. Joke....complete joke, for 2013 read 1999, yet another New Generation!
SlowRower

Guys - If you think this is a joke then please find another sport to watch. Cycling is cycling and fundamentally it will never change. Save yourself the pain and do something else!

Rant over.

Go Froomedog! Contador not the same rider when on the vegetarian diet.

What about the Belkin Boys? Only 100s conceded to Froome. Are they that good?
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Early reports are 49 minutes for the last 15.65kms, about the same as Contador and Schleck in 2009...............into a strong headwind.
RR also reports about 12% below the record.

Movistar's pace also must have had a negative effect.

Yeah. Ride of the day: Mike Snow.

In other news, I hear that the UCI management committee have asked McQuaid to withdraw his nomination......


Interesting .... so Froome is a whole lot slower and the rest of the peloton are way off the pace?

Interesting re McQuaid.  That would be good!!


As Phil says, it's more about how he rode, rather than times.

Times are already being quoted by the tin foil hat brigade, but if there is one mountain that has to include wind as a massive variable, it has to be the windy mount.

Remember 2009 for instance? Everybody complain that they couldn't attack because of the strong headwind, yet those two still went as fast as Froome with this strong tailwind.
Straight off, French tv said there was a vent favourable.

No, by all means question how he raced, but the times are meaningless; possibly a reason for optimism.........
Bartali

Thanks Huw ... good explanation.

SR - spoken like an unrepentant LA fan!
phildange

Personally I'm not schocked by doping . We, in France, always knew and always said they were all on chemicals . I was censured on BBC 606 when I wrote about Lance in his time . For newbie Anglo-Saxons cycling fans, this old truth was still unknown . In the 20s, the idol Henri Pelissier made a public scandal about the average use of cocaine and other stuff .
What angers me is the difference between riders, difference of doping I mean, and also this childish thought some champions are clean . I'm not again Chris, I even fumed last year cause I had the feeling he was ordered to wait for Brad . For some reason I feel sympathy for the little fox face Alberto, but this is personal .
Money in TdF always made damages . In the 20s/30s, commercial "sponsoring" trades triggered scandalous cheatings which influenced the GC . TdF owners and the newspaper "L'Equipe" did all they could to hide Lance's dark side ( L'Equipe even sacked one of its journalists because he was trying to write what everybody knew ) . What I hate is when "artisanal" doping becomes a big business enterprise, high tech labs, Fox News money and gangsters behaviour, such as US Postal team mates intimidating young French riders who were trying to make certain things public during the Tour .
Fontfroide

phildange wrote:
The question is this incredible acceleration, all along sitting on the saddle . But well, Kenyan gods maybe .


Just to insist on a tiny inaccuracy.  Froome got out of the saddle to initiate the acceleration with Contador, then sat back down within a few seconds.  I have no idea why you think this is unusual.  Even I, when I wish to accelerate get out of the saddle for a few seconds, then sit down.  Mind you, I don't accelerate much, but I really have no idea why his standing up then sitting down is so strange.  Frankly, I find Contador's wobbling about all over the place while standing up seems a waste of energy and very odd.

And with Quintana when he dropped him, Froome suggested Quintana lost a bit of power at the end, but maybe you know better.  Anyway, pretty soon I will drop out of the doping conversations with people who have no data, who don't really know and who just want to do more doping conversations.  Go for it.  Without me.

Myself, I say if they are caught bust em, if not caught then they are not caught. On an internet forum anyone can say anything.
bianchigirl

Spot on phildange, neat summary. They might as well give LA his titles back - plus ca change...
mazda

Fontfroide wrote:
phildange wrote:
The question is this incredible acceleration, all along sitting on the saddle . But well, Kenyan gods maybe .


He doesn't change gear, so he is pedalling quite quickly when he accelerates (given his already higher cadence).
From my very limited experience there is no benefit to standing on the pedals when you are padalling at that speed. It may even be counter-productive or dangerous to do so.
mazda

gerry12ie wrote:
Does Froome have a Kindle instead of SRM?  Whatever it is it looks like a riveting read... Rolling Eyes

I find that annoying as well.
He is always looking down at his little screen.
Should ban those, along with radios.
gerry12ie

Well said Phil.  I don't know what the programme is, or even if it is down to the Bilharzia treatment, but that ride (and his TDF form in general) came from a lab - and I don't actually say things like that lightly.

Last saturday's blastoff looked suspicious but since then froome finished within 11 seconds of Tony Martin, coped comfortably last Sunday when completely isolated, and today produced what we have just seen.  

I'm sorry but it's too unbelievable for me.
phildange

Mr Font, I'd be sorry to anger you . You were probably typing when I edited the thing, but if you read the last post in the previous page, you'll see what I think about the whole stuff .
Boogerd_Fan

gerry12ie wrote:
Excuse the language but this is just totally fucking ridiculous.  This bloke couldn't beat a clearly doped to the gills Cobo two years ago!

Tour de Farce


My thoughts exactly. I was sat there watching with mouth open at how incredibly obvious it all is.

Guy was riding up the 10% final KM like he was on a sunday recovery ride. Quintana loses 30s in just 1000m on his favoured terrain!? Everyone else reduced to crawling over the line by then.

Marginal gains my arse

Excited for Bauke though. That was a REAL battle following last wheel in that small group of favourites, while Ten Dam hammered along the pace. he just about held on to his 2nd (and virtual leaders jersey).

There's still 4 decisive stages left. And a final rest day for the others to "top up" lets say. Hopefully they can expose him on a slightly less predictable day of racing, and test the dawg. I might start believing he is human after all, if there is a bonk or a wobble before Paris.
HuwB

Well, let's assume that we can technically KO Froome from today's events for his performance, who was the first rider home who folks feel is relatively clean and are comfortable to award the stage?
MAILLOT JAUNE

bianchigirl wrote:
They might as well give LA his titles back - plus ca change...

Never thought I'd hear you utter such words BG!
Boogerd_Fan

well i wouldn't go with Quintana.

from Colombian holiday to TDF mountain summits... very suspect. although he hasn't looked like he has an extra gear in him unlike the Dawg.
gerry12ie

Quote:
Froome praised Quintana for his performance.

“He’s a really strong climber. I expected him to go but I wasn’t expecting it’d be that hard to catch him. Even when I did, I thought he’d win the stage and I’d have to settle for whatever gap I could get. Fortunately he faded in last two kilometres and I had a bit left. We talked a bit and I was motivating him by saying 'Come on, come on'. But then he faded, I don’t think I really attacked.”


WTF?

Nieve for me Huw.
Bartali

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
well i wouldn't go with Quintana.

from Colombian holiday to TDF mountain summits... very suspect. although he hasn't looked like he has an extra gear in him unlike the Dawg.


I've not followed Quintana, but you, Huw and others are clearly suspicious.  Could he not simply be altitude training is South America.  Am I missing something .... genuine question.

To answer Huw's question, Bertie is probably as clean as can be expected.  

The whole thing is difficult because there is so much history and I suspect most of us on this forum are old enough to have had our fingers burnt more than once.  PhilD is pretty close to my views I think.  For me it's not today's ride .... its (a) transformation from c-list pro-tour rider to world beater in less than three seasons (one of which was blighted by sickness) and (b) the combination of flyweight mountain goat with near world beating flat ITT performances.  That's just physics ..... and PEDs have been involved whenever we've seen it before.  Contador is a very good example ...

On a positive note - I was mightily impressed by Peter Kennaugh today.  That lad pulled himself inside out for his team  Chapeau!
Fontfroide

phildange wrote:
Personally I'm not schocked by doping . We, in France, always knew and always said they were all on chemicals.


By the way Phil, you can anger (more like annoyance) me all you like.  It is not "real anger". It's only a bike race.  Its only a cycling forum.

I am not shocked by drug use either, illegal or not.  It goes on everywhere, at all levels of society.  No reason to suppose it won't happen in cycling.  Now or forever.

I get annoyed when people say they "all" are on chemicals.  You might have seen the book and reviews of it recently, by a French guy called Antoine Vayer.  I have not read the book, and doubt if I ever will, thank goodness for reviews.  Whatever one thinks about his exact methods, one thing emerges clearly.  Two winners look like they were clean, for sure.  Not Indurain, Riis, Pantani, Ullrich, Contador or Armstrong.  Maybe not Fignon or Wiggins by the "watts" criteria, but we already know Fignon doped.  However, Lemond and Evans come out clean.  they generated perfectly believable and perfectly normal watts.  They could easily have done what they did clean.  By the watts criteria.  In addition there is no doubt that many lesser riders, especially French ones maybe, were clean.  They never got caught, they never seemed to dope, they were for clean cycling.  They also were not big winners.  So I just get pissed off at people who supposed to love cycling, supposed to know something, saying "all".  Although if you want to say that, who's to say you can't.  Not me.  I can moan about though, and will do.  It is just plain sloppy and almost certainly not true.  All.  NO.

In addition I am a nitpicker for detail sometimes.  Although not always right.  Froome stood up, attacked and then sat down.  Look again.

As for the other stuff you said in this post, I agree with most, but this post is too long already, and I am talking AGAIN about doping, which just depresses me.  It is like reminding people about capitalism and consumerism and rich people, when they just wanna have fun.  Depressing.  My apologies to those of you who read this and got bored.

I might take up your history of the Tour and doping and money later, or maybe not.  Others here know more than me.
phildange

It's always necessary to take products, legal ones, for a rider . Who decides what's legal or not, and when is it decided ? When I said "all", I meant the big guns, and I was fuming the year some young Frenchies who obviously hadn't access to the same stuff ( and the same "kindness" from TdF bosses ) were trying to say things between the stages, looking nervously around them . You could feel the henchmen prowling around .
This new attitude, this totalitarian power is too much .
The time when they used good old red wine is very far ... Ah ah ...
How comes there is no French champion any more? The French have not been genetically modified in the last decades, we can see they still try hard . Training ? Sky's manager is French . What I know, from "Le Canard Enchaîné", is that years ago the French Fed decided to apply, at least roughly the new order about dope (against the firm will of TdF owners who would have liked to keep some French hopes regarding the national audience - Christian Prud'homme, director of the race, wanted to make things clean too, but TdF owners made him quickly understand what is important in life ). Since then, we never saw a French contender .
When all the possible winners take something, it's superhuman for a clean champion to win . He would have to be Hercules , because the others are champions too . If they all took the same thing, it would be fairer .
Slapshot 3

Based on the way Contador is riding he's either clean or there's something wrong with him and I don't think there's anything wrong.

It's depressing more than anything else, we've moved on??? no we haven't, new names new levels of bullshit!!
bianchigirl

MJ if I was LA I'd be spitting tacks watching Froome - comes from mediocre results at best (remember the way he popped in 09 giro behind gerrans? All over the road) goes to sky, becomes world beater when even DBs famous graph rated him pro conti level - at least wiggins, LA could call on previous results as proof of talent. If Froome showed anything from the off - as all the talented ones did - he'd have been snapped up. He is sky's current super responder who happens to attack a bit, but in the most obvious doped up fashion. Maybe that arrogance cloaked behind false humility will undo him.

He's the new chicken - I'd be looking to see where leinders has been recently.

History has profiled the great riders for us over and over again and they all, without exception - even la & wiggins - have great results early. Look at Quintana - he's a tour de l'avenir winner, he's shown his talent from the off. Froome is same old shit different day or perhaps meme merde jour different.

Waiting for an equipe extraterreste headline - plenty of muttering in Dutch press.

Froome - not Hinault, not Merckx, just not normal
Bartali

Do you have a link to that graph BG?  I've never hear of that ...
bianchigirl

Here you go bartali - it's at the bottom http://www.cyclesportmag.com/feat...side-the-mind-of-dave-brailsford/
Interesting article
bianchigirl

SS who knew the new clean cycling looked so much like the old doped cycling?
SlowRower

Bartali wrote:
SR - spoken like an unrepentant LA fan!


I am at least consistent - My default position is to expect doping as a cursory knowledge of cycling history tells you that it's happened a lot in the past and a basic knowledge of human nature suggests it will happen again. I am therefore rarely disappointed!

No logical contortions for me favouring a particular rider who's a "clear" doper but then giving another rider who's no more clear as a doper a hard time.

But on a serious point, just remind me what busting Lance back to the Stone Age whilst giving the "Dirty Dozen" a virtual free pass has achieved...

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