Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling
 


       justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge
Mrs John Murphy

There's a riot going on

I am not sure what is more depressing the fact that there are riots or the media/political reaction/grand standing about it.

I find the idea that if you make any attempt to understand why you get outbreaks of violence (first major riots for 30 odd years) you are somehow condoning it as the Daily Hate Mail accused people of doing. It is akin to saying if you try to understand why riders choose to dope that you are somehow condoning doping.

Rioting doesn't just happen without a reason, if it did then we would live in a perpetual riot.
Boogerd_Fan

Isn't that the point... via media sensationalism the rest of the kids have taken note and major city riots are spreading, simply because these youths can see that people are getting away with it.

These kids are sheep unfortunately.

It's even breaking news on Slovak STV1... which says something about how much fannying about is going on about what is basically a bunch of kids working out they can commit petty theft if they go in large enough groups.

A south african friend of mine said it best. UK needs to man-up and start using rubber bullets to take these twats down.
SlowRower

There are doubtless some very real issues relating to long term economic prospects for people in so-called "deprived" areas, but I would think these are long-standing and not the specific cause of recent riots.

My guess is that in good economic times, such areas are kept happy by means of the diversion of public money. In the current less than good economic times, less money is available for diversion (or more accurately, the rate of increase isn't enough to keep up with demand), so the underlying problems are brought into sharper focus.

Apparently at Clapham Junction, the only shop left untouched was Waterstones, whereas electrical retailers were stripped bare. Does this tell us something about the rioters' motives or is it simply a reflection of the relative levels of security employed by Waterstones vs (for example) PC World?
Mrs John Murphy

I think that there is a certain logic that says that 'if the state/society doesn't give a shit about me, then why should I give a shit about society'.

I tend to think that shooting people is counter-productive
MrsSR

SlowRower wrote:
Apparently at Clapham Junction, the only shop left untouched was Waterstones, whereas electrical retailers were stripped bare. Does this tell us something about the rioters' motives or is it simply a reflection of the relative levels of security employed by Waterstones vs (for example) PC World?

Call me small minded but when I envisage the sort of people that have been rioting I don't picture someone sitting down with a good book.

A BBC reporter quoted being asked by a group of youths where they were headed next so they could follow him to find the action. They were apparently carrying shopping bags!!
Bartali

I'm still struggling with the concept that the Kaiser Chiefs have proved to be more reliable than Nostradamus.
Guiness

Bartali wrote:
I'm still struggling with the concept that the Kaiser Chiefs have proved to be more reliable than Nostradamus.


Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Watching the people get lairy
Is not very pretty I tell thee
Walking through town is quite scary
And not very sensible either

A friend of a friend he got beaten
He looked the wrong way at a policeman
Would never have happened to Smeaton
An old Leodensian

La-ah-ah, lalala la la la
Ah-ah-ah, lalala la la la

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot

I tried to get to my taxi
A man in a tracksuit attacked me
He said that he saw it before me
Wants to get things a bit gory

Girls scrabble around with no clothes on
To borrow a pound for a condom
If it wasn't for chip fat, they'd be frozen
They're not very sensible

La-ah-ah, lalala la la la
Ah-ah-ah, lalala la la la

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot

And if there's anybody left in here
That doesn't want to be out there

Watching the people get lairy
Is not very pretty I tell thee
Walking through town is quite scary
And not very sensible

La-ah-ah, lalala la la la
Ah-ah-ah, lalala la la la

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot

And if there's anybody left in here
That doesn't want to be out there

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot
Bartali

MrsSR wrote:
A BBC reporter quoted being asked by a group of youths where they were headed next so they could follow him to find the action. They were apparently carrying shopping bags!!


I wonder how many yoofs now have big plasma screen TVs and no remote control?

On a serious note I tend to think that while the first riot had some sort of ignition point (justified or not) the rest are pretty opportunist.  Is there an underlying cause?  I guess there is, but  I suspect that this time its closer to greed than social exclusion.
Guiness

It's all about greed. No self-control. Their parents should be ashamed.
Mrs John Murphy

Bartali wrote:
MrsSR wrote:
A BBC reporter quoted being asked by a group of youths where they were headed next so they could follow him to find the action. They were apparently carrying shopping bags!!


I wonder how many yoofs now have big plasma screen TVs and no remote control?

On a serious note I tend to think that while the first riot had some sort of ignition point (justified or not) the rest are pretty opportunist.  Is there an underlying cause?  I guess there is, but  I suspect that this time its closer to greed than social exclusion.


For the last 30 years we have had consumerism drummed into us - namely that the only way our worth can be measured is in material terms - what car, DVD, home, holiday etc do we have.

We have also been told that there is no such thing as society and that no one owes us anything (and by that same amount we owe no one anything).

We also need to contextualise the riots - since last year we have seen student protests, public sector strikes and protests and now riots. Although they are not unified, there is still a common theme.

Lets also consider the fact that inequality in the UK has massively increased since 1979 (to levels not seen since the interwar period - nb the last time there was sustained social unrest in the UK).

None of this is to condone the riots, looting etc, but the fact of the matter is that this kind of thing is abnormal and the question is why has normality in the middle of 2011 broken down.
SAP

Whatever the cause it looks scary from over here.  My local paper had a great picture on the front page today of regular people with their brooms lined up to help public workers to clean up the mess in their streets.  The coppers are being portrayed as fairly powerless against the rioters though. Hopefully no more people lose their lives.

Had to Google Kaiser Chiefs to follow the conversation Wink
Mrs John Murphy

Relatively speaking, although it covers a far larger area than say the LA or post-Katrina riots, the number of deaths (so far is far fewer).
CapeRoadie

Who are the rioters?  Chavs?  Hooligans?  Is this racially motivated?  WTF is going on over there?
SAP

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
Relatively speaking, although it covers a far larger area than say the LA or post-Katrina riots, the number of deaths (so far is far fewer).


Well, yes, it's the lack of guns, isn't it?  Thank goodness.  We could do with a few less here.
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
I think that there is a certain logic that says that 'if the state/society doesn't give a shit about me, then why should I give a shit about society'.


One can easily follow such logic, but are the people thinking "the state/society doesn't care about me" correct? Where does their money come from? Benefits, perhaps? Factor in free health care and education provided by the state and you could easily conclude that the state/society does indeed care quite a lot, even if a little impersonally.

It strikes me that the argument quoted could be turned on its head to be "Why should I care about these people if they're ungrateful b*ggers who go on the rampage looting when they get the chance?" As the "care" in this context is essentially just paying tax, the consequences might not be very pleasant (e.g. significant numbers of people start voting for parties that pledge to seriously cut benefit payments to the rioting classes, or at least the classes identified and condemned by the Daily Mail as the rioting classes.)
Bartali

Apparently the rioting classes include teachers and university administrators.

MJM point is calid about questions need to be asked.  I say 'greed' - but that's oversimplifying.  There is clearly something about the general breakdown of 'societal values' etc.  Nevertheless, IMO these riots are very different from those in the 80s ... or for that matter the public strikes and student protests.

From the evidence of my morning paper, liberal thinkers are very quick to jump on the old chestnut of this being an underclass that have nothing to look forward, no jobs, no youth clubs etc.  Well I just don't by that.  Not only are today's underclass 'relatively' wealthy when compared to their parents and grandparents, they also have a lot more to do - maybe its the consumerism point MJM raises, but I'm not convinced.  When the Jarrow miners had a gripe about no jobs and REAL poverty - they made some placards and marched 500 miles to westminster.  They didn't bust up the local butchers bakers or candlestick makers.

So, I'm not saying there isn't an underlying cause, but I'd suggest its the same malaise of moral depravity that runs through society at large these days - 'run-away' wages in the financial services sector, phone tapping, corrupt bobbies, over egging insurance claims .......
Guiness

Guiness wrote:
It's all about greed. No self-control. Their parents should be ashamed.


Bartali I agree with you. This is why I mentioned that their parents should be ashamed. No-one has any moral values anymore and the teaching should really start at home. I am a man of little words. I think my point is clear though.
gerry12ie

I thought some of the comments from a Le Monde article that was reprinted by the Guardian quite telling:

Quote:
"Globalisation engenders an excess of individualism and nowhere more so than in Anglo-Saxon countries," wrote Jean-Marc Creau on the site. Joelle Koenig added: "Since the Reagan and Thatcher years, deregulation has grown faster. They reduced taxes for billionaires ... and now they want to work the people of Tottenham and elsewhere to death to pay off the debt."

Jean Baptiste Clamence wrote: "There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless. I've more hope for the youth of our banlieues."


It has long been accepted that the Thatcherite principles of reward through entrepreneurialism and the elevation of the individual exacted a heavy toll on social conditions.  Essentially, there is a huge swathe of uneducated youth whose only compass is one that points at mammon, celebrity and unearned reward.  The majority of those involved didn't consider the socio-political implications of their actions in any sense and should be punished as criminals but there is a huge gap to bridge when the dust settles.

I watched a bystander interviewed on the news on Monday night.  It was 1 a.m. and he was at Clapham Junction with a Canon strap slung over his shoulder proposing that 'Londoners should get together and do something about it'.  Presumably that meant going out to take few pictures...  The next day there was a couple interviewed lunching over Caesar salads and a dry white at Battersea pointing towards 'the estates' where 'they' came from.  Now everybody is entitled to take a few pictures and have lunch but if they think that the last few nights is some kind of interactive Pamplona bullrun put on for the benefit of the Lavender Hill Mob by those nice little gremlins from the estate then there really is alot of workto do.

No need to panic though, it's only the collapse of neo-liberalism and the global market Cool
smarauder68

Can anyone in England update this situation? Are there any riots still going on? Are more of the football matches in jeopardy?

I was really looking forward to betting Fulham vs Aston Villa and QPR vs Bolton...I would think West London and the area around Craven Cottage would be safe...I didn't see many poor kids in west London when I visited.

What part of London do QPR play in? Any riots there?
gerry12ie

The prosecution rests m'lud.
Biosphere

I'm now convinced that Smarauder is actually a French Situationist prankster  Wink
gerry12ie

Biosphere wrote:
I'm now convinced that Smarauder is actually a French Situationist prankster  Wink


Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
gerry12ie

Here's something I just don't get:


Quote:
Cameron told MPs "gangs were at the heart of the protests and have been behind the coordinated attacks".

He has also asked the home secretary Theresa May to work with figures such as Bill Bratten, the former chief of police in New York and Los Angeles, on how to combat gangs.


and

Quote:
In January the Home Office introduced pilots for gang civil injunctions, particularly aimed at those aged 14-17. Introduced in the Policing and Crime Act 2009 and modelled on precedence in California, these civil injunctions allows local authorities and police to ban named individuals from engaging or assisting in gang activity, including wearing distinctive colours or entering rival territory. They can also ban individuals from using social network sites for gang meet-ups.


Why, in these islands, do we insist on running for help and guidance on how to tackle gang culture and drugs to the country that has failed the most in trying to deal with the same problems?  Would it be counter productive to liaise with countries that have had some success??
Severo

What I found surprising was how many middle-aged Poles I spoke to, who have the frightening side of the state's power in living memory, were very quick to suggest use of water cannons, army etc.
mazda

Does anyone see any parallels between the "herd mentality" and "lack of accountability" of the "rioters" (I use that term loosely - more a case of opportunistic pilagers) and the current ups and downs in the financial markets ?

I'm sure these big swings in market stock levels are also caused by large scale "flock" mentality and looking to make a quick buck, getting carried along in the wave of the moment, rather than any genuine concern over the value of the companies or banks at that particular moment.

It is not quite as clear who the losers are when stocks drop 4% and then gain it back a few days later.

IMO it is the same conditioned responses and urges that drive both, just that people in different spheres of life express it in different ways.
Bartali

Spot on Mazda.  That's the point I was trying to make.  
On a separate point, I just don't accept tat we are talking about an underclass here.  Many of these guys are a damn site richer than my family was ... and that's before we even get on to the teachers and University administrators ...
CapeRoadie

The looters/pillagers are a lot like the banking industry execs, just poorer, less organized, using different means, and without legal or political backing.  Both groups are raping small businesses.
Fontfroide

Well, Cape, a certain truth in what you say, but the looters do it sporadically every few years here and there, and the bankers and speculators do it all year round everywhere.  The speculators don't get busted usually.
cadence

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/d...d-mark-cuban-predict-market-crash


"The only people who know what business Wall Street is in are the traders," Cuban wrote on May 9, 2010. "They know what business Wall Street is in better than everyone else. To traders, whether day traders or high frequency or somewhere in between, Wall Street has nothing to do with creating capital for businesses, its original goal. Wall Street is a platform. It's a platform to be exploited by every technological and intellectual means possible."
Mrs John Murphy

I always find it interesting that the politicians demand that people take 'responsibility for their actions' and yet steadfastly refuse to take any responsibility themselves for the impact of their policies.
smarauder68

rioters in London migrate to Tripoli???
Guiness

Interesting articles in the press of late about the Magistrates Courts being able to deal with all the work coming throguh their doors so swiftly.  Suggestion is that maybe some courts should be open at weekends / at nights. Food for thought.
ullrichfan

Bartali wrote:
... and that's before we even get on to the teachers and University administrators ...


What's your problem with these groups?
Fontfroide

Bartali wrote:
Spot on Mazda.  That's the point I was trying to make.  
On a separate point, I just don't accept tat we are talking about an underclass here.  Many of these guys are a damn site richer than my family was ... and that's before we even get on to the teachers and University administrators ...


I think nearly all the research on protestors of various sorts over the last 50 years shows that many of them are middle class, including many leaders, and have always been.  This has been a puzzle for those who insist that it is only poor people who have a 'legitimate' axe to grind.  I think to understand the whole thing, here, there and everywhere, you really do have to ask the question about the radical middle classes or the rioting middle classes.  If you think they should be happy, apparently they are not.  Why?   Superficial answers like spoilt, foolish, deceived, not serious, etc don't get far.  Why can those middle class educated people be so annoyed?  It is easier to 'explain' poor people revolting, but oddly, they often don't.   How is it that university educated professionally oriented middle classes can get outraged over the last fifty years?

       justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum