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kathy

TdF stage 19 - Bourgoin-Jailleu - Aubenas 24th July

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Pretty flat last 5km



LL. Sánchez to get away on the descent and then TT to the finish?
Beasley

l'Escrinet is 14km at around 4%.

Final 2km at 5%, but that's not gonna shift anyone

Saxo might give it a blast at the bottom, just to see if they can catch anyone unawares. Liquigas could be the other team to try something, considering a podium is all but off the cards for Nibali.

Hopefully thinking, mind
nzovu

Not sure Saxo will attack on this one. What they need is a long hard ascent to tie up second place and put Frank in third, ie Ventoux tomorrow. And they need to be totally ready for that...

Sanchez does look like a good candidate...
HuwB

The Tour graphics are their best promotional tool. That last climb looks like Mont Blanc, but in reality, it's more the bottom half of Arcalis. Embarassed
Ceasefire and a breakaway.
Beasley

nzovu wrote:
Not sure Saxo will attack on this one. What they need is a long hard ascent to tie up second place and put Frank in third, ie Ventoux tomorrow. And they need to be totally ready for that...

Sanchez does look like a good candidate...

I agree, I think that would be the optimal strategy.

However, three riders between Frank and the podium, two of whom have been up on the podium before and will fight like dogs up Ventoux.

The Ventoux run-in isn't the best for creating gaps nowadays, IMO. There's only one hill of substance and once they hit the 15km to go mark the heavy lads are all but useless; over 9% means that the super-doms will be dictating the pace.

This is the last real day for Saxo's rouleurs; I'd be tempted to use them.
sabcarrera

Wasn't the 23rd of July yesterday?
HuwB

SITUATION

Cadel Evans (Silence-Lotto), Yaroslav Popovych (Astana), David Millar (Garmin), Kim Kirchen (Columbia), Jose Luis Arrieta and Nicolas Roche(AG2R), David Arroyo, Luis-Leon Sanchez and Jose Ivan Gutierrez (Caisse d'Epargne), Leonard Duque (Cofidis), Simon Spilak (Lampre), Carlos Barredo and Sylvain Chavanel (Quick Step), Geoffrey Lequatre (Agritubel), Daniele Bennati (Liquigas), Stijn Vandenbergh (Katusha), Jonathan Hivert (Skil-Shimano) and William Bonnet (Bbox)

Peloton at 1:05
70kmph

are they tell evans to get back  Wink
kathy

sabcarrera wrote:
Wasn't the 23rd of July yesterday?


I expect so  Laughing
billgull

Cadel missed the break!
HuwB

Dull.
Well done Cav.
I reckon Armstrong just pinched 4 seconds or so, on his rivals.....
cyclingtv

in the true form of a grand tour champion Rolling Eyes
Bartali

Yeap ... 4 seconds!

Can't accuse the old man of not fighting to the bitter end.

That's 44 seconds that the others have 'given away' to LA - which in the contect of most mountain top finishes and ITTs is huge!  To be fair to LA, he's riding this tour a bit like 'a poor man's DDL'
HuwB

Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.
mazda

Crumbs.
Wiggins and Schleck were only 2 and 3 positions behind him and they let him get a gap.
inputjoe

HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.


What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?
HuwB

inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.


What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?


They didn't pick it, at all. Too busy with Cav's surprise win and, to be fair, a much better interview.

Wiggins was way back when the split occurred, could have been + 10 seconds. He buried himself, when he realised what was happening.

Chapeau to Armstrong, for using his racing experience to expolit the sprint train (what was left)

Of course, if I was myopic, I would come out with something like:-

Why did Armstrong attack Contador, right at the end?
He should be helping his team mates, not dropping them.
Trying to steal time to protect his position and leaving them behind, is just a stupid mistake.

See? Doesn't quite ring true, now, does it? Wink
Enchantress

HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.


Desperation!

Can't see him finishing ahead of Schleck Edler on Ventoux
inputjoe

HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.


What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?


They didn't pick it, at all. Too busy with Cav's surprise win and, to be fair, a much better interview.

Of course, if I was myopic, I would come out with something like:-

Why did Armstrong attack Contador, right at the end?


If that's what you saw then myopia is not your only problem.
SlowRower

HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.


Ironically, with declining physical prowess, two of Armstrong's other relative strengths, i.e. tactical awareness and a refusal to give up (or desperation, if you prefer!), become more obvious. He didn't really need them in his prime, but they'll likely as not make the difference between 7th place and the podium this year.
HuwB

inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.

What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?


They didn't pick it, at all. Too busy with Cav's surprise win and, to be fair, a much better interview.
Of course, if I was myopic, I would come out with something like:-
Why did Armstrong attack Contador, right at the end?


If that's what you saw then myopia is not your only problem.


All that pent up hate for Contador, Joe.
You are obviously still steaming.
Just watch the old blood pressure on Sunday.

Nice hatchet job on my quote.
Not really worth leaving so few bits in, then forgetting to take the word if out.
Still, if needs must....

Since you are in the mood to ask questions you don't like the answer to: "Howd'ya enjoy yesterday's ITT, then? Embarassed
cadence

HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.

What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?


They didn't pick it, at all. Too busy with Cav's surprise win and, to be fair, a much better interview.
Of course, if I was myopic, I would come out with something like:-
Why did Armstrong attack Contador, right at the end?


If that's what you saw then myopia is not your only problem.


All that pent up hate for Contador, Joe.
You are obviously still steaming.
Just watch the old blood pressure on Sunday.

Nice hatchet job on my quote.
Not really worth leaving so few bits in, then forgetting to take the word if out.
Still, if needs must....

Since you are in the mood to ask questions you don't like the answer to: "Howd'ya enjoy yesterday's ITT, then? Embarassed


He's a doper, isn’t that the "main" reason you hated Armstrong?  Or is being a polite European doper better than being an arrogant doper from Texas?  Very Happy
mayofan

complete misread inputjoe. Ive never heard anyone on here say they dislike armstong primarily because hes a doper. In no particular order Ive heard: arrogant, cold, misogynist, bully, omerta-enforcer.

so yeah...of course being polite is much better than being arrogant..
not that berto seems that great either..i despise that stupid pistol salute.

why do you think people like ullrich so much more than LA? ill give you a clue...its not cos hes clean.

If you hate riders because theyre dopers why do you even bother watching?
cadence

mayofan wrote:
complete misread inputjoe. Ive never heard anyone on here say they dislike armstong primarily because hes a doper. In no particular order Ive heard: arrogant, cold, misogynist, bully, omerta-enforcer.

so yeah...of course being polite is much better than being arrogant..
not that berto seems that great either..i despise that stupid pistol salute.

why do you think people like ullrich so much more than LA? ill give you a clue...its not cos hes clean.

If you hate riders because theyre dopers why do you even bother watching?


We’ve reduced cycling to a popularity contest…. Smile
inputjoe

HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Did the same things to his rivals in his hayday, on such stages.
Either a sign of increasing form, or desperation.

What is the thinking of the ES studio experts on that?


They didn't pick it, at all. Too busy with Cav's surprise win and, to be fair, a much better interview.
Of course, if I was myopic, I would come out with something like:-
Why did Armstrong attack Contador, right at the end?


If that's what you saw then myopia is not your only problem.


All that pent up hate for Contador, Joe.
You are obviously still steaming.
Just watch the old blood pressure on Sunday.

Nice hatchet job on my quote.
Not really worth leaving so few bits in, then forgetting to take the word if out.
Still, if needs must....

Since you are in the mood to ask questions you don't like the answer to: "Howd'ya enjoy yesterday's ITT, then? Embarassed


Make up your mind. Are you now saying Armstrong didn't attack Contador on the finish line?

It was a sensational ride by Contador yesterday. It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?
cadence

He’s trying to say FU Astana, I’m gonna do what I want, what are you gonna do about it, and Lance is pretending to be a team player while Alberto rubs his nose in it.
Bartali

inputjoe wrote:
It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?

Why are people still going on about this when he clearly didn't attack Kloden!  A 10 second (if that) burst in 35km of riding does not an attack make.  Why he put the burst in we don't know - but it CLEARLY wasn't to attack Klodi (or Armstrong) otherwise he would have worked to increase the gap. Mistake?  Miscommunication? who knows ... but it wasn't about LA, Wiggins or dropping Kloden.
cadence

Does Contador speak German, or Kloden Spanish?  I could see how a miscommunication could occur in English.
HuwB

inputjoe wrote:

Make up your mind. Are you now saying Armstrong didn't attack Contador on the finish line?

It was a sensational ride by Contador yesterday. It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?


Quote:
Chapeau to Armstrong, for using his racing experience to expolit the sprint train (what was left)


I know irony sometimes gets lost in translation, especially when travelling over the pond, but why did this bit get ignored?

It came before the irony, btw.
Sometimes LA fans seem to completely humour free.
Maybe I should just use a smiley instead of English, like Cadence.

However, I see you understood the point of my post perfectly well, with your reference to Colombieres.
Mrs John Murphy

Huw - Joe once claimed that Armstrong deliberately isolated himself in order to rest his team. It was at that point in time that most people learnt never to take anything he says seriously. I don't actually think he watches cycling, just downloads the latest Lance press-releases and then presents them as fact.

To be fair, it must have been tough for him to decide which bandwagon he was going to jump on - he'd gone from Lance to Vino to Dertie and the poor boy was torn between his love for Lance and his new love. As it was the Lance bandwagon proved too irresistible.
inputjoe

Bartali wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?

Why are people still going on about this when he clearly didn't attack Kloden!  A 10 second (if that) burst in 35km of riding does not an attack make.  Why he put the burst in we don't know - but it CLEARLY wasn't to attack Klodi (or Armstrong) otherwise he would have worked to increase the gap. Mistake?  Miscommunication? who knows ... but it wasn't about LA, Wiggins or dropping Kloden.


Still going on about this? Bart, try to keep things in perspective. You never seem to waste an opportunity to remind us how over-rated Armstrong's performance has been since the comeback... and you've got several thousand posts to your credit!
Mrs John Murphy

LOL Joe - you'd bite on a cock if you thought it was dissing Armstrong.
Bartali

inputjoe wrote:
Bartali wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?

Why are people still going on about this when he clearly didn't attack Kloden!  A 10 second (if that) burst in 35km of riding does not an attack make.  Why he put the burst in we don't know - but it CLEARLY wasn't to attack Klodi (or Armstrong) otherwise he would have worked to increase the gap. Mistake?  Miscommunication? who knows ... but it wasn't about LA, Wiggins or dropping Kloden.


Still going on about this? Bart, try to keep things in perspective. You never seem to waste an opportunity to remind us how over-rated Armstrong's performance has been since the comeback... and you've got several thousand posts to your credit!

Sorry Joe - I thought we were talking about Contador and Kloden?
cadence

My English is best described as gibberish by those who right well….I’m just saying, if nothing else, Pharmstrong has given everyone something to talk about.  The best man won the tour, as always, drugged or not….Wiggins and Cavendish gave you lot a lot to be proud of….be happy….if it’s possible for the Brits to be happy….. Smile
kathy

cadence wrote:
Does Contador speak German, or Kloden Spanish?  I could see how a miscommunication could occur in English.


the conversation was in English, which Klöden speaks pretty well, but with a strong accent, and Berto speaks badly, but understands enough.  Certainly if you believe the ES coverage of the team talk on the Astana bus today.  The only time when Berto paid any attention was when the riders were told not to allow Garmin to get the team classification 'for personal reasons' - how petty can you get.  Berto laughed at this, and got told off!
cadence

kathy wrote:
cadence wrote:
Does Contador speak German, or Kloden Spanish?  I could see how a miscommunication could occur in English.


the conversation was in English, which Klöden speaks pretty well, but with a strong accent, and Berto speaks badly, but understands enough.  Certainly if you believe the ES coverage of the team talk on the Astana bus today.  The only time when Berto paid any attention was when the riders were told not to allow Garmin to get the team classification 'for personal reasons' - how petty can you get.  Berto laughed at this, and got told off!


Guess it was the fact that Garmin chased down Hincappi, but whats loyalty when your talking about doping and such.
inputjoe

Bartali wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
Bartali wrote:
inputjoe wrote:
It certainly explains why he felt he had to attack the Schlecks and Kloden the day before on the colombiere, doesn't it?

Why are people still going on about this when he clearly didn't attack Kloden!  A 10 second (if that) burst in 35km of riding does not an attack make.  Why he put the burst in we don't know - but it CLEARLY wasn't to attack Klodi (or Armstrong) otherwise he would have worked to increase the gap. Mistake?  Miscommunication? who knows ... but it wasn't about LA, Wiggins or dropping Kloden.


Still going on about this? Bart, try to keep things in perspective. You never seem to waste an opportunity to remind us how over-rated Armstrong's performance has been since the comeback... and you've got several thousand posts to your credit!

Sorry Joe - I thought we were talking about Contador and Kloden?


Nothing to be sorry about, we were talking about Contador and Kloden. I just have a different take on it (Contador's attack, acceleration, move, whatever you want to call it, was a mistake and with regard to Kloden, inexcusable). You, Huw and some of the other big riders in this forum perhaps see it otherwise (Contador's move, while not brilliant, was excusable, given the circumstances at the time). I've got no problem with that provided the debate remains civil.
Bartali

cadence wrote:
Guess it was the fact that Garmin chased down Hincappi, but whats loyalty when your talking about doping and such.


Guess so ... but what's all this about loyalty?  What do Astana owe to Hincapie?  I can see why LA may want to 'reward' his ex right hand man, but it seems a bit petty to make it an anti Garmin issue.

The whole thing is a bit petty as it seems to me that the main reason Garmin contributed to the chase was because Columbia - particularly Cavendish - had been shooting their mouths off all season.

Edit - to be balanced, fair play re Cavendish's apology http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8168151.stm
Bartali

Joe - do you really not think it was a mistake?  What's your take on Contador slowing up after the short burst / dropping to the back (just off the back in fact) and spending all that time looking down the road to Klodi?  Inexcusable because he should have known better or inexcusable because he meant to harm Klodi?
kathy

Joe, I think you will find that Brunyeel, Contador and Armstrong regard Klóden as a domestique, and a domestique who cannot pace you up the climb any more isn't much use to you.  The 'attack', if you can call it that, that Contador made on Klöden is the sort of thing that happens all the time, when the team leader decides it's time to put down the hammer.
mr shifter

kathy wrote:
was when the riders were told not to allow Garmin to get the team classification 'for personal reasons' - how petty can you get.  Berto laughed at this, and got told off!


I took that to mean personal to Bruyneel himself and my reading of it was that,  it started long before this Tour started and there is a Feud going on and he wants to beat them on GC and in the Team Prize and leave no crumbs for Garmin.
Also he is like a spoilt kid in the playground.
SAP

Quote:
Edit - to be balanced, fair play re Cavendish's apology http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8168151.stm


Thanks for posting this, Bartali.  It was great to hear Cav grow up before my very ears....He is back on my favorites list.  I liked his acknowledgement of Thor's riding a few days ago when he got his sprint points after the mountains, by himself, without any helpers.
inputjoe

Bartali wrote:
Joe - do you really not think it was a mistake?  What's your take on Contador slowing up after the short burst / dropping to the back (just off the back in fact) and spending all that time looking down the road to Klodi?  Inexcusable because he should have known better or inexcusable because he meant to harm Klodi?


Yes, a mistake. He wouldn't have apologized for it otherwise.

With regard to your second question, he gave the impression of being genuinely surprised at the effect his acceleration had on Kloden. I would give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, he didn't mean to harm Kloden. Once he had realized AK wasn't following he shut it down. The damage, of course, was already done. Kloden was unhitched and the Schlecks accelerated to insure the gap wasn't closed by a Contador deceleration. Contador might have waited for his mate otherwise but the Schlecks weren't going to allow it. The attack, acceleration, whatever you want to call it, was a mistake. Contador admitted as much later that evening.

If it had been Armstrong in the group I could see why he might be feeling a little ansty, but Kloden is as loyal as they come. He rode for Ullrich, rode for Vino, rode for Armstrong. He's gonna ride for Contador.

Inexcusable because he should have known better; inexcusable because imo he harmed Kloden's chances of a podium finish. The Schlecks and Armstrong were the beneficiaries of Contador's tactical mistake.

Kathy, is it the sort of thing that happens all the time where a team leader ignores the DS and decides it's time to put the hammer down, then looks back for his teammates and noticing they aren't there, decelerates?
mr shifter

cadence wrote:
He’s trying to say FU Astana, I’m gonna do what I want, what are you gonna do about it, and Lance is pretending to be a team player while Alberto rubs his nose in it.


Oh No, thats bollox.
Contador is Astana and signed a contract to ride for them  and he should be saying FU to pharmstrong but instead he lets his legs do the talking.
Bruyneel came afterwards and "HE" invited pharmstrong to be an unpaid  Guest on the Team and he definately is "Pretending" to be a team player.

In the interview with LA today he said about the new team that he hoped to sign a lot of the staff from this team as he knows how they blend together from the time they were all at Discovery.

It seems that on Monday Vinokourov takes over his team and Bruyneel is kicked out and thus the texan has to go with him. (no contract etc)
I doubt if there is a team with enough money to Hire pharmstrong and why would they wish to, when he has shown he has his own Agenda and so he has to start a new team.
Then if the money is OK, the other riders and staff members will move over when their contracts run out

Oh and by the way, some of us grew to dislike the Runt long before he got Cancer, but then we were around before he got to Europe.
When I was visiting the States from 2000 and no one knew the guy OR they might say isn't he the guy with Cancer or something.
yeah that's the guy, but what sport did he do and finally it comes out as he races on a bicycle, we think.
you people have come a long way in 8 years because none had heard of Lemon, at that time either.

Zebbity says it's time for bed. bye.
mr shifter

SAP wrote:
Quote:
Edit - to be balanced, fair play re Cavendish's apology http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8168151.stm


Thanks for posting this, Bartali.  It was great to hear Cav grow up before my very ears....He is back on my favorites list.  I liked his acknowledgement of Thor's riding a few days ago when he got his sprint points after the mountains, by himself, without any helpers.


My sentiments also.
That was an outstanding ride and he has my Full Respect again.
It was nice to see them chating in the presentation tent.
Bartali

Joe - I think we are pretty much on the same page.  I can understand why he would do his own thing as he probably feels  that JB does not have his interests at heart. That said ... had JB said don't attack as Klodi is on the limit ... take him home and he'll get on the podium - my feeling is that he wouldn't have attacked.
cadence

Bartali wrote:
Joe - I think we are pretty much on the same page.  I can understand why he would do his own thing as he probably feels  that JB does not have his interests at heart. That said ... had JB said don't attack as Klodi is on the limit ... take him home and he'll get on the podium - my feeling is that he wouldn't have attacked.


Agreed
Enchantress

mr shifter wrote:
SAP wrote:
Quote:
Edit - to be balanced, fair play re Cavendish's apology http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8168151.stm


Thanks for posting this, Bartali.  It was great to hear Cav grow up before my very ears....He is back on my favorites list.  I liked his acknowledgement of Thor's riding a few days ago when he got his sprint points after the mountains, by himself, without any helpers.


My sentiments also.
That was an outstanding ride and he has my Full Respect again.
It was nice to see them chating in the presentation tent.


Completely in agreement here.

I can deal with a bit of playful banter and bravado among the sprinters but Cav was over the line in suggesting the green jersey was tainted. Thor's mountain escape really put it all in perspective - what the jersey is about - and it is good to hear Cav acknowledge that.

Cav has speed like no one else in a sprint so he'll get his green soon enough.
Me, a fan?

Looks like Cav has stricken fear into the hearts of all the other sprinters and their teams.  They're afraid to even try anything.  Cav was #2 Columbia man at 1.2k to go, not much of a lead out train and yet no other team was able to pull their sprinter up past him.  I dunno, maybe the others had nobody left.

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