Jackov
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TdF stage 11 - Wednesday July 15
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MAILLOT JAUNE
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Hey jackov, we haven't even got over the excitement of stage 10 yet..... 
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Jackov
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CVV crashed
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Jackov
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| Quote: | 14:03 CEST (139km remaining from 192km)
The race has covered almost 50km in the first hour! Go on my sons!
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zoinks!
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kathy
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Just found this thread, so I've deleted the one I started earlier today:D
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Jackov
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no video on versus today for me, just audio.
Pity I can't see the Loire phil and paul keep pointing out. And the canal. Both are quite long. The wines go well with crustaceans.
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kathy
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Sancerre is a lovely town. It's a beautiful area - had a holiday on the canal once. There was a very nice restaurant on board a barge on the canal.
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Hommedesbois
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I moved away from la Niévre 2 months ago after living there for 7 years.
The end-of-season Rallye des Vignobles tours the towns of Sancerre, Pouilly and Cosné-sur-Loire. A large section of the Paris-Bourges route. Descending at over 70 kph after a few plastic cups of wine is .....interesting.
There is also a pig of a climb on pavé in Sancerre village.
Making me homesick!
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Superbagneres
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Sounds like David Duffield should be commentating on this stage 
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cyclingtv
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es commentators have lost their minds.. they've been drinking??
sound like they have at least 4 guys in the booth..
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Hommedesbois
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Duffers is responsible to some extent for me being here!
Think yourself lucky I'm not expounding on the wines of the region
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cyclingtv
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liked the e-mail.. asking Sean to speak more to help put their baby to sleep..
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Jackov
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phill and paul very excited now
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70kmph
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hERE WE GO...
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70kmph
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bleh...
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Jackov
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He's not supposed to win on the uphill finish. Doesn't he read his email?
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mr shifter
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| Jackov wrote: | | He's not supposed to win on the uphill finish. Doesn't he read his email? |
Now you know better and it was strong man Thor who lost out. ! ! !
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Slapshot 3
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Interviewer - "they said the stage finish didn't suit you Mark"
Cav - "who did......"
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CapeRoadie
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Power is power, (short) uphill or down, I guess. He is amazing. We'll be re-thinking the "perfect sprinter's body composition" for a while, I suppose. He is amazing.
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Mrs John Murphy
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Amazing or a flat track bully? EPO Erik's help and the Columbia program which can turn Tony Martin into a climber is clearly very impressive (a kind of reverse Astana). But obviously Boonen is not in the game at all mentally or physically and QS made a huge mistake in picking him over Allan Davis. Bennati is clearly not fit.
If he were beating an on-form Bennati/Boonen/Ale-Jet then maybe some of the swooning over him would be justified but it seems like a lot of hype for being able to beat up weak fields. Graeme Hick on a bike.
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Ralphnorman
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You can only beat who is there. Yes it would be more impressive if he was beating all the big name sprinters who are on the top of their game but if the are not there for one reason or another it's not his fault.
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Spoo
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| Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | If he were beating an on-form Bennati/Boonen/Ale-Jet then maybe some of the swooning over him would be justified but it seems like a lot of hype for being able to beat up weak fields. Graeme Hick on a bike. |
+1 to Ralphs comment, you can only beat whats in front of you and to be fair hes held his own in the past in illustrious company (last years Giro v an in-form Bennati).
An honest question to those with a more in-depth knowledge than me - didn't alejet win a ridiculous amount of Giro stages a few years back? (Wiki tells me 9 in 2004!  ) Was there a massive dearth of sprinting talent that year? Surely he can't have been that dominant over a top field!?! Was he a 'flat track bully' that year?
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Mysterion
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| Slapshot 3 wrote: | Interviewer - "they said the stage finish didn't suit you Mark"
Cav - "who did......" |
Didn't he say something like,"Who did...foreigners?"
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Mysterion
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| Mysterion wrote: | | Slapshot 3 wrote: | Interviewer - "they said the stage finish didn't suit you Mark"
Cav - "who did......" |
Didn't he say something like,"Who did...foreigners?" |
I just saw it again, he didn't say "foreign people", he said "internet forum people". Ha!
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Mrs John Murphy
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| Spoo wrote: | | Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | If he were beating an on-form Bennati/Boonen/Ale-Jet then maybe some of the swooning over him would be justified but it seems like a lot of hype for being able to beat up weak fields. Graeme Hick on a bike. |
+1 to Ralphs comment, you can only beat whats in front of you and to be fair hes held his own in the past in illustrious company (last years Giro v an in-form Bennati).
An honest question to those with a more in-depth knowledge than me - didn't alejet win a ridiculous amount of Giro stages a few years back? (Wiki tells me 9 in 2004! ) Was there a massive dearth of sprinting talent that year? Surely he can't have been that dominant over a top field!?! Was he a 'flat track bully' that year? |
You can only beat what is in front of you, but if what is in front of you is in poor form then that isn't really evidence of quality. Graeme Hick could hit 400 off a poor county attack but put him against an inform international attack and he struggled.
Boonen and Bennati are clearly out of form based upon their positions in all of the sprints.
The 2004 Giro had a pretty poor sprinting field IMO. Olaf Pollack was Petacchi's nearest rival.
BTW if we apply Frodo rules to this then this is only his first win. He claimed that Petacchi had only beaten him once in the Giro because the other time he hadn't contested the sprint because he was caught in a split. So if we are saying that only sprints where everyone contest it count then this is the first stage where both Boonen and Bennati have been contested the sprint with Frodo.
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Boogerd_Fan
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I agree with the weak sprinters field this year, Friere doesnt look so interested in the large gallops, Benatti & Boonen haven't figured, Thor is always there or thereabouts.
Having said that, credit where its due, not many people expected Cav to pull it off today on an uphill finish. I think that deserves some respect.
It's a pity its like 6/12 stages now... so... y'know... too good.
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Geraint
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Cav reminds me of McEwen, same build, wonder he will start having roid rages. Farrar could be a real threat next year too, he would have beaten anyone else today.
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redster73
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| Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | Spoo wrote: | | Mrs John Murphy wrote: | | If he were beating an on-form Bennati/Boonen/Ale-Jet then maybe some of the swooning over him would be justified but it seems like a lot of hype for being able to beat up weak fields. Graeme Hick on a bike. |
+1 to Ralphs comment, you can only beat whats in front of you and to be fair hes held his own in the past in illustrious company (last years Giro v an in-form Bennati).
An honest question to those with a more in-depth knowledge than me - didn't alejet win a ridiculous amount of Giro stages a few years back? (Wiki tells me 9 in 2004! ) Was there a massive dearth of sprinting talent that year? Surely he can't have been that dominant over a top field!?! Was he a 'flat track bully' that year? |
You can only beat what is in front of you, but if what is in front of you is in poor form then that isn't really evidence of quality. Graeme Hick could hit 400 off a poor county attack but put him against an inform international attack and he struggled.
Boonen and Bennati are clearly out of form based upon their positions in all of the sprints.
The 2004 Giro had a pretty poor sprinting field IMO. Olaf Pollack was Petacchi's nearest rival.
BTW if we apply Frodo rules to this then this is only his first win. He claimed that Petacchi had only beaten him once in the Giro because the other time he hadn't contested the sprint because he was caught in a split. So if we are saying that only sprints where everyone contest it count then this is the first stage where both Boonen and Bennati have been contested the sprint with Frodo. |
But it seems the consensus from the peleton is that Cav is the fastest man on a bike this year...perhaps, just perhaps, his dominance is making others look ordinary at the moment...
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SlowRower
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There's probably some truth in both sides of the arguments, I'd say.
Cav has repeatedly won the bunch sprints in the Giro and TDF, so he has repeatedly performed at the highest level, as measured by the reputation of the event.
Although many of his victories were against "poor" (relatively) opposition on the day, when he has raced the Big Guns head to head on days when they were in good form, he's won more than he's lost in the last two years.
If the Graeme Hick analogy held properly then Cav would only rarely beat the Big Guns and only rarely win the GT sprints.
Hick never consistently performed at the highest level, even against some fairly ordinary bowlers (e.g. Merv Hughes and the terrifying Kiwis ofn the early 90s.) There was no need to argue that his performances at the highest level weren't good because he was outperformed by team mates and rivals on such a regular basis.
Cav, on the other hand, has consistently delivered at the highest level, which mean that those who seek to downplay his achievements have to make excuses for the opposition.
The key question is this: If all the present Big Guns were contesting the same sprint when they were in form, with their best teams behind them and there's no impact of crashes and mechanicals, who would you back to win more often than not?
I'd go for Cav, but it would be pretty close.
Put him against Super Mario at his peak and I think Cav would get mullered at the moment, but I'm horribly biased in favour of Mario!
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Bartali
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IMO Cavendish is undoubtedly fast, but he has benefited from injured, missing and out of form opposition. Shame for everyone really because the battles against (say) the in form Bennati in the 2008 Giro were excellent. Didn't Bennati win that one 3:2.
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kathy
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| Bartali wrote: | | IMO Cavendish is undoubtedly fast, but he has benefited from injured, missing and out of form opposition. Shame for everyone really because the battles against (say) the in form Bennati in the 2008 Giro were excellent. Didn't Bennati win that one 3:2. |
Yes, but Cav did donate a win to his lead-out man Greipel if I remember corredtly.
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Superbagneres
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I think the 2008 Giro with Bennati was the last time I genuinely wondered whether Cav was the best sprinter in a race he was in, and even by the end of the race I would have backed him against Bennati; "the Panther" showed more acumen, but that comes with experience, and Cav was I think quicker. I rather wonder if Bennati will ever be the same again, sadly.
Much as I respect what Boonen and Freire are capable of (which is a lot more than sprinting, obviously), I would not say they are on the same level as Cav and Bennati in an out-and-out sprint. I am very surprised Farrar hasn't attracted more plaudits; if we are taking that Garmin are a clean team then what he is doing is very impressive. He deserves a stage somewhere this week.
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Superbagneres
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Incidentally, Kathy, until I read Cav's book I didn't realise that Greipel claims he outsprinted Cav that day.
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Spoo
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| kathy wrote: | | Bartali wrote: | | IMO Cavendish is undoubtedly fast, but he has benefited from injured, missing and out of form opposition. Shame for everyone really because the battles against (say) the in form Bennati in the 2008 Giro were excellent. Didn't Bennati win that one 3:2. |
Yes, but Cav did donate a win to his lead-out man Greipel if I remember corredtly. |
Thats the one, probably why I remembered it as 3-3.
My point on Petacchi was that often great sportsmans reputations can be built on beating up on poor fields/opposition too. 9 stages in the 2004 Giro and he also had 5 in 2007 (again not sure what the field was like that year?)
Its the same in football if a players face doesn't fit they down play their goals as being against poor oppposition (e.g. Peter Crouch for England), while conveniently ignoring that Wayne Rooneys goals were also against predominantly poor teams.
But the key point concerning Cav I guess is that (unlike Grahem Hick) you need to be the best on your team at the top level (Cav has seen off Ciolek, Greipel, Renshaw etc. as lead sprinter), hold your own against the best and win big races. its just a shame for the spectacle that there isn't a fully fit/in-form Bennati, Boonen, Pettachi, Cippolini, Abdujaparov 
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Ralphnorman
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Another abujaporov would be scary If Cav won a minor race where all the big sprinters were there and on form, would it be considering a 'greater/better' victory than a TdF stage against a weakened field? Nobody remembers 2nd place, and no-one will really remember that the field wasn't as strong as it could have been when they look at his palmaeres.
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Bartali
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Absolutely agree SB - but it was exciting. I just think it is a shame that it appears all too easy for Cavendish. (Not that he would think it was a shame) From the unbiased (on this occasion) fans perspective it is all a bit too predictable. Not in anyway a critism of the rider, just an observation that it 'may' be more interesting/competative if others were fit and/or allowed to race etc.
But the guy is young and he will face more serious tests in future seasons. Bottom line IMO is that he clearly is the real deal.
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Superbagneres
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Bartali, as another unbiased fan I would that agree whenever anything becomes predictable boredom sets in. I don't think there's a solution to that, other than to hope Farrar gets better and Bennati comes back to his top form. But there again it only takes another young kid on the block to emerge - and it can happen quickly - for things to change.
I think Spoo makes an excellent observation. Even at the start of 2008 I was thinking that Cav would need to leave for a less top-heavy sprinting team to flourish, and the fact that he got to the top with the competition in that team does speak volumes.
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Bartali
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Absolutely. He has certainly had a meteoric rise. Not to devalue the TdF / Giro wins, MSR was a real eye opener.
Lets get wiley Bennati back to form and have some fun. The side camera footage of his acceleration during the last stage of the 2007(?) TdF was fantastic ... did I say something about being unbiased
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