Biosphere
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TdF - July 13th - LimogesA place to collect thoughts for the week since we'll have nothing to talk about tomorrow.
Subject to some excitement today, I'm in the it's not been a good first week camp. Found last year a lot more exciting, but in retrospect some of that excitement was drug induced so how to re-evaluate against this year?
I hadn't realised the TTT had done away with the time caps until the day of it - it's a boot on the neck for the racing. Lucky the Schlecks have got Cancellara in their team, unlike Evans who was shafted before the first mountain.
On the plus side it's good to see two Garmin riders going well in GC, as well as Millar getting in breaks. Shaking off their TTT one trick pony tags. The other plus was that the blue train may have taken up it's customary position driving towards the MTF, but they were apparently lacking in power given the number of riders that stayed with them. And the team has been blood tested 2 days in a row (yesterday and day before) - less scope for funny stuff hopefully.
Is Riis that inept a DS? He's won it as a rider (OK I guess that doesn't count) and as a DS. Thought the tactics last year were pretty decent. Picking off competitors one by one, working to keep Evans in yellow and in a media spotlight. Or was it just a case of even a stopped clock giving the right time twice a day?
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bianchigirl
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Saw a pretty good suggestion on another forum - let the times as they stand count for the team GC but limit the individual losses - the poster suggested dividing time losses by 2. Therefore not huge losses but still an incentive to ride to limt them - after all half 4 is still 2 minutes loss.
And limit ITTs to 20 kms and TTTs to 10 kms - and run them as split stages with a short road stage like they used to do in the Tour and like they do in the Criterium International. At the moment a TT specialist can do far more damage to a climber than vice versa - especially when mountain tactics have become so negative that Wiggins is still there at the top of Arcalis. No disrespect intended but I doubt if he'd have stayed with a Blue Train at their peak - still a defensive, negative tactic whether it's used at full strength or not.
On the other hand, seeing Voeckler break his duck and watching Brice Feillu score a victory as a neopro was great - just bin the insane amount of TTing in the first week next year.
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headwind
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| bianchigirl wrote: | Saw a pretty good suggestion on another forum - let the times as they stand count for the team GC but limit the individual losses - the poster suggested dividing time losses by 2. Therefore not huge losses but still an incentive to ride to limt them - after all half 4 is still 2 minutes loss.
And limit ITTs to 20 kms and TTTs to 10 kms - and run them as split stages with a short road stage like they used to do in the Tour and like they do in the Criterium International. At the moment a TT specialist can do far more damage to a climber than vice versa - especially when mountain tactics have become so negative that Wiggins is still there at the top of Arcalis. No disrespect intended but I doubt if he'd have stayed with a Blue Train at their peak - still a defensive, negative tactic whether it's used at full strength or not.
On the other hand, seeing Voeckler break his duck and watching Brice Feillu score a victory as a neopro was great - just bin the insane amount of TTing in the first week next year. |
well, huzzah!
No one here would be surprised to say how much I agree. However, Im less in favor of punishing hard work (ie, limiting margins of victory by deleting time), to simply limiting the event in order to limit losses...ITT 7-10k, TTT 15-20 k max. I also agree that adding it at the end of the day for a split stage would be excellent. However, the ASO is clearly not making a parcours for killer cycling...but for the almighty Euro. That the super specialized discipline TTing has becom can inflcit so much hell for 100 km of a race should be a fucking wake up call...PRUNE ALL TT into something reasonable.
Whoever dreamed up todays shit show should be sent into the bay of biscay with a concrete life vest.
hw
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Bartali
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ITT is traditionally part of the TdF but if we look back in history, we see that it was never as influencial as it has become. Coppi won the TdF in the mountains ... not in the ITT!
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Mrs John Murphy
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| Bartali wrote: | | ITT is traditionally part of the TdF but if we look back in history, we see that it was never as influencial as it has become. Coppi won the TdF in the mountains ... not in the ITT! |
I see your Coppi and raise you an Anquetil.
I also point you in the direction of the 1969 TDF which had 4 ITTs and a TTT and Merckx winning by 18 minutes.
I think the point is perhaps that technology gives the TTers more of an advantage in those stages that the climbers receive using the same technology. There have been no technical advances that have given the pure climbers an equal advantage in the mountains.
Poor route design - or rather designing the course with making money rather than good racing in mind is perhaps the biggest killer here.
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headwind
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Sure Bartali. No problems keeping it in. But look at TT bikes today v Merckx's era...TT is now a $$$ thinkg more than anything, and that favors few teams. I know how you feel, and al I can say is limit the distance...limit the effect.
hw
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Bartali
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Agreed!
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Boogerd_Fan
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I liked the Giro TT with the regular road bike.
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Mrs John Murphy
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Just out of interest - has there been any come back in the French press about the course and the way in which it has been designed. The ASO should be absolutely carpeted for this course.
Also, maybe one of the Danish speakers can shed some light on Saxo. WTF are they doing and again - why hasn't Riis been hauled over the coals for his teams performance?
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Hommedesbois
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Too busy to read the press but my neighbours are as critical of the course as we are...particularly today.
Riis was 'interviewed' on France2 but it didn't last long. As soon as AS was
mentioned he cut off. He just said the same as Sans Vega, that they had to keep earpieces 'for the safety of the riders'.
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nzovu
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Riis is viewed as a great strategist by most of the Danish media.... His doping aura has been fading fast in the media (especially tv) these past couple of years, though not necessarily among laymen or fans. They have mutual interests I guess - if you're looking for good viewer ratings for your TdF coverage, you don't want to remind people of such ugly things.
As for what's up with the Saxo strategy, I dunno. DS Andersen keeps talking about waiting until the Alps. But we also see how riders are being placed our front as bridges for attacks by the Schlecks. And then there's the riders own ideas - some of the interviews with the Schlecks and the domestiques seem to indicate that they're trying their own stuff sometimes, without prior approval.
There's talk that the lousy parcours ín the Pyrenees is a delibarete strategy to avoid big time gaps and thereby keep the viewers hooked (there's that issue again!). That does seem to fit well with having Ventoux so late....
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CapeRoadie
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Waste of a Tourmalet today!
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bianchigirl
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Equipe said the Pyrenees had 'disappeared' from this years race - though Jeff Bernard has bemoaned the fact that GC contenders didn't take the opportunity to attack anyway.
Problem is that the parcours doesn't account for the way that race tactics have developed - yes, they're neagtive and defensive now but then why design a race that doesn't encourage attacking by wasting climbs like the Tourmalet?
I see Armstrong was playing the 'of course I could have followed Contador' card - he'll be great in politics as he couldn't tell the truth if it kicked him in the ball.
And Prudhomme is 'surprised' that the DSes haven't said anything before now about the radio free stages - still, at least he's not going to do a Zomegnan and fall over backwards to accomodate the whinings of Bruyneel.
Is it me or have there been fewer people out on the sides of the road? Doesn't seem like the much vaunted 'Lance Effect' has been much in evidence so far this year - in fact in certain places the roadside crowds seem positively sparse.
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Hommedesbois
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I wondered today about the much-vaunted 'chalkbots' too.
Just hype perhaps?
A few years ago there was 'Héras' everywhere but painting multiple 'Astana' everywhere, or rather in a few places seems a bit of a waste of paint unless you have an adequate budget for such bollocks.
Nicely set up for a Liestrong victory on Le Mont Ventoux and another Oscar victory speech in Paris. Maybe all the French could ride as a team?
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Bartali
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| Hommedesbois wrote: | | Nicely set up for a Liestrong victory on Le Mont Ventoux and another Oscar victory speech in Paris. Maybe all the French could ride as a team? |
But .... he hasn't been able to follow any attack by a GT contender in either the Giro or TdF, and lost a handfull of time in the ITT. What makes anyone think he'll be even in the running by the time the Ventoux comes around.
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nzovu
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If they want to keep viewers hanging on, how about adding a docu-soap concept to the TdF? We could all get to vote out a rider after each stage 
I'm thinking Big Brother style... Man would I like to follow the action in Lance's room (now don't get me wrong!!!).
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Hommedesbois
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| Bartali wrote: |
But .... he hasn't been able to follow any attack by a GT contender in either the Giro or TdF, and lost a handfull of time in the ITT. What makes anyone think he'll be even in the running by the time the Ventoux comes around. |
But this isn't the Giro ....attack by which GC contender? He is third, at 8 seconds from a MJ who isn't going to be there in a week's time, on a parcours which hasn't so far suited anyone but some arrivistes already distanced on GC. I was expecting, hoping he would be shelled out by now, but he isn't. Are Sastre or a Schleck going to make up enough in the Alps or the ITT? I certainly hope so but Asstana appear to be controlling it rather well.
I'm just echoing what my French neighbours are saying. 'Fait accompli' was today's analysis of 'their' race.
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Superbagneres
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Paul Sherwen tonight: it's been a joy to watch Lance Amstrong this last week.
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Biosphere
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| Superbagneres wrote: | | Paul Sherwen tonight: it's been a joy to watch Lance Amstrong this last week. |
I was laughing about Liggett saying that they wanted to cheer on the breakaway, but as commentators they had to remain above it all and be neutral. 
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bianchigirl
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Those 2 neutral? Sherwenn's been on Armstrong's payroll since god knows when.
Thank the lord for France 2 and their impeccable coverage
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SlowRower
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Thank heavens for Bob Roll as well on ITV4. Now I'm pretty tolerant, but Bob really takes the buscuit. I can forgive him predicting an Armstrong victory, but predicting Armstrong to win "the bike race" annoyed me. Who'd have thought it was a race involving bikes? 
Surely ITV4 should be making more use of Imlach and Boardman. The former is a top presenter and Boardman is not exactly noted for letting emotions get the better of him.
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kit
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Team Earnings after first week of the TDF:
1. Bouygues Telecom: 31.650 euros
2. Columbia 28.460
3. Astana: 23.200
4. Liquigas: 22.000
5. Caisse d'Epargne : 20.360
6. Garmin: 17.750
7. Cervélo: 17.550
8. Saxo Bank: 17.430
9. Cofidis: 17.170
10. AG2R: 16.790
11. Agritubel: 15.710
12. Française des Jeux: 14.060
13. Rabobank: 12.600
14. Katusha: 12.290
15. Milram: 9.740
16. Skil: 8.480
17. Euskaltel: 8.440
18. Quick Step: 6.220
19. Lampre: 4.240
20. Silence: 3.110
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... 
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HuwB
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You have to wonder what the hand out money for.
Obviously, stage wins, sprint primes, KOM and jerseys.
What else, though? Daily high GC spots.
Team classifications must be worth a fair bit.
Otherwise, (sorry to bring them up again) why have Astana done so well and teams like EE, who are in the breaks each day, or Cervelo, with a stage win, seconds and the Maillot Vert, half way down the list?
Ag2r, with yellow, but half the cash.
Heck, Saxo had a stage win and held the lead for 5 days.....
Lotto's great season continues, I see. 
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The Lemondheads
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| kit wrote: |
Team Earnings after first week of the TDF:
1. Bouygues Telecom: 31.650 euros
2. Columbia 28.460
3. Astana: 23.200
4. Liquigas: 22.000
5. Caisse d'Epargne : 20.360
6. Garmin: 17.750
7. Cervélo: 17.550
8. Saxo Bank: 17.430
9. Cofidis: 17.170
10. AG2R: 16.790
11. Agritubel: 15.710
12. Française des Jeux: 14.060
13. Rabobank: 12.600
14. Katusha: 12.290
15. Milram: 9.740
16. Skil: 8.480
17. Euskaltel: 8.440
18. Quick Step: 6.220
19. Lampre: 4.240
20. Silence: 3.110
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... |
Pretty small fry isn't it? Some German guy just won over €1M for 8 days work in two minor golf tournaments.
Presumably this is gross income rather than net of back-handers or Astana would be bottom and Saxo Bank at the top.
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Bartali
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| Hommedesbois wrote: | | But this isn't the Giro ....attack by which GC contender? He is third, at 8 seconds from a MJ who isn't going to be there in a week's time, on a parcours which hasn't so far suited anyone but some arrivistes already distanced on GC. I was expecting, hoping he would be shelled out by now, but he isn't. Are Sastre or a Schleck going to make up enough in the Alps or the ITT? I certainly hope so but Asstana appear to be controlling it rather well. |
But to be fair LA's position is flattered by the strong ITT and the 40 odd seconds taken on the flat stage. Of course, every second counts and it is what it is. But, LA was fourth best Astana man in the ITT and only just finished ahead of Kloden on the climb - after Kloden had flogged himself up the climb.
Now, he can't ITT Contador (and LL) and he can't out climb him - so where is he going to win the tour? Personally I can see Kloden and LL beating him in the ITT and then the temptation to leave LA behind on the Ventoux will be huge.
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The Lemondheads
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| Bartali wrote: | | Now, he can't ITT Contador (and LL) and he can't out climb him - so where is he going to win the tour? Personally I can see Kloden and LL beating him in the ITT and then the temptation to leave LA behind on the Ventoux will be huge. |
Klöden is a good pro/doormat. He'll hang back with LA all the way up Ventoux. Contador is the only one that didn't get the memo. Unfortunately there's only room in the moto panniers for 8 sets of blood bags so one lot will have to go down the toilet. Hopefully he was sensible and left a spare set in the Caisse d'Epargne fridge.
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ventoux
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| SlowRower wrote: | | Surely ITV4 should be making more use of Imlach and Boardman. The former is a top presenter and Boardman is not exactly noted for letting emotions get the better of him. |
+1
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SlowRower
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Bart,
Don't get me wrong - I don't think Armstrong will win overall, but the logic for him winning follows from what is possible, as opposed to what might be likely. I don't think Armstrong deals in self-doubt, so in his mind, the possible (in his favour) becomes what is going to happen. Hope springs eternal, and all that.
1 - The ITT performances first time out won't be repeated, as Armstrong will be getting fitter faster than LL and Kloden, given his lack of racing and the crash. Thus, LL and Kloden are behind at the moment and will not get in front via the ITT. So long as Armstrong can keep up with Bertie on the climbs prior to Ventoux, no-one on his team will be taking time out of him in the hills.
2 - There are no other contenders in non-controllable range, even if they are better TTers and climbers. Any potentially decisive attack will be reeled in by Astana. Astana politics will be irrelevant here, since Lance and Bertie are together on the GC, so an attack on one is an attack on the other, and the Armstrong and Bertie factions will be united by cause. (Plus, of course, Caisse will be riding for Bertie even if no-one from Astana is!)
3 - Armstrong will lose minimal time in the final ITT to Bertie.
4 - Armstrong will pull one out of the bag on the Ventoux.
In reality, even if everything else goes as well as he could hope, he will lose sufficient time (although not a vast amount) to Bertie in the final TT, and the bag will be well and truly empty when he starts looking in it up the Ventoux.
Obviously, the above doesn't consider Bertie's blood getting sabotaged.
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Ralphnorman
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Kit, is that actually euros or hundreds/thousands or whatever the scale is? ie Have Bouyges only won 31.65 euros or 3165 euros? 
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SlowRower
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Ralph,
The continentals use a "." instead of a "," in their numbers, so BT won E31,650.
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Ralphnorman
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thanks, it makes more sense that they've won 31,650 euros that 31.65  
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kit
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| Ralphnorman wrote: | | thanks, it makes more sense that they've won 31,650 euros that 31.65 |
But still a pittance, isn't it, compared to what other sports earn.
Cycling is the most spectacular sport in the world, free to view (on the roads) and TVs (almost free anyway) and the riders ride through dangerous routes and unpleasant weather conditions, uses very expensive accessories (a bike is hundred times more than a racket) but is underrated when it comes to making money. No wonder then that it's difficult for sponsors to commit to long term expenditure.
Still, vive le velo!
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Bartali
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Kit - I don't necessarily disagree, but presumably those numbers are 'winnings' as opposed to the riders 'earnings'? Not that the earnings of a 'regular' euro pro are that much either. Still, Mr Armstrong got x million euros for just turning up at the Giro. Hashe got a start fee at Le Tour too?
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Jackov
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I'd like to see how much income ASO gets from the race and how much it costs to stage it. I don't have any numbers other than prize winnings, but it doesn't seem like a hugely profitable enterpise.
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kit
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I have no idea either, but the Tour is the biggest publicity medium of the year. The towns where it passes through do pay a certain sponsorship fee to ASO, and in return, they get unlimited publicity to a huge viewership. The sponsors of the teams get free TV exposure when the cameras focus on their riders. Breakaways don't necessarily mean anything other than to hog the camera for the sponsor's logo or colours to be seen on TV.
As for Armstrong getting millions for his appearances, that's the gain of being a celebrity. Any rider who won a record 7 years consecutive win would merit the same or more. That earning is commercial and personal and not what he would have earned riding. As a frequent winner though, he must have amassed a great sum.
Boonen earns a tidy sum from his appearances and commercial ads in Belgium. I think so do other big name riders in their own country. Endorsements are usually bigger than what a sportsman or athlete earns through his trade depending on what company or product one endorses.
I was just thinking, if on the first week Silence Lotto earned just that much, and if at the end of the tour a team pockets just a meager sum, aside from the publicity it generates, sponsoring a team is actually not profitable. No wonder that sponsors don't stay long...
Maybe ASO gets some sort of sponsorship financial grant from the French government? After all, the spectacle no doubt is a great tourist publicity for the scenery of France.
Still, the Tour is a French national pride. It will be there no matter the odds, and let's enjoy it while we can.
Cheers everyone, it's BASTILLE DAY! Bring it on!
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Fontfroide
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If it helps at all, the cost of a start to a town is 80,000 euros, in the case of Montpellier since they had a start and finish, it was 150,000. So that comes to nearly three and half million euros for the start finish fees. the extra prizes the Tour pays are hardly worth riding for, except maybe the yellow jersey. They have always had very low prize money, although the salaries have gone way up since about the time of Lemond. they are not anywhere near football, tennis, golf or others,but I think the compare favourably with rugby or athletics. I don't know how much the five or six big sponsors pay, but the cars must cost a bit for Skoda or whoever it is. Plus all the caravan buggies who pay for riding around France. Then there are the TV rights, which generate money. I think it is really immense money spinner, all things considered. If I find some figures, I shall send them.
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SlowRower
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Not forgetting, of course, the bonanza enjoyed by the local contractors who resurface the roads on parts of the route where the local road resurfacing budget would not normally be diverted.
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kit
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Thanks Fontfroide. Skoda... A couple years ago when most sponsors were pulling out due to the doping reputation in cycling, there was an article where Skoda mentioned it will continue its sponsorship of the Tour as their sales did improve world wide ever since they'd been part of the Tour. Not surprising. The Tour is broadcast in 5 continents (at least) with Eurosport the biggest distributor in many languages.
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Bartali
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| kit wrote: | | As for Armstrong getting millions for his appearances, that's the gain of being a celebrity. Any rider who won a record 7 years consecutive win would merit the same or more. That earning is commercial and personal and not what he would have earned riding. As a frequent winner though, he must have amassed a great sum. |
My thought though was more about how far the practice goes. We know he got Giro money but what about Le Tour. What about other star riders - Contador, Boonan (most years) for example.
I have no complaints - its being going on for years. When you get really good, like Signor Binda, they start paying you not to turn up!!!
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Fontfroide
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I am still pretty certain that nearly all advertisers think the Tour is cheap and effective advertising. I have read this in many places from many advertisers/sponsors, of teams and of the Tour.
I have not seen prices lately though. But an entire team budget, shared among all the sponsors, is only between 6 and 15 million euros. Loads of rich people on earth could just sponsor a personal team, not possible in many sports.
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