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cardinal guzman

Running Shoes.

I need a pair of running shoes. I'm a 'supinator', with high arches and a tendency to run on my toes rather than a heel/toe action if I'm not concentrating, who's going to be running a fell race in September after a 23 year running hiatus. As you know, I'm light as and need the lightest possible shoe, that's also cheap as chips. I don't want to even start running till I've got a correct pair of shoes (hitec squash won't do methinks). I'm doing well with the bike miles and don't want to jeopardise a thing.

Any help will be much appreciated as always!
smarauder68

New Balance 851's or 661's are very light can be purchased with the arch support you need.-
happa gal

Before I started training for my marathon I went and got fitted at a running shoe store. It was totally worth the time and effort. Asics Gel Evolution is my shoe.

After 6 months of training (6 days a week) I completed my first marathon with absolutely no blisters and no foot issues. I say go to your local running store. Your feet will thank you!
thunderthighs

learn to walk ...but 851...is you bet.. ciao

women shoes are not like guy shoes..

women have a round heel a guy is flat..so please ask.. 851 i use them now. they are awesome..

ciao again
bbnaz

dang, I bought adidas and have been happy so far.  of course the fact that they were 50% off helped a bit too.

Happa, you are my inspiration for running, right now however it is more a walk/jog/shuffle.....
crash48

thunderthighs wrote:
learn to walk ...but 851...is you bet.. ciao



Laughing

New balance or Asics will do the business.
CapeRoadie

Re: Running Shoes.

cardinal guzman wrote:
I need a pair of running shoes. I'm a 'supinator', with high arches and a tendency to run on my toes rather than a heel/toe action if I'm not concentrating, who's going to be running a fell race in September after a 23 year running hiatus. As you know, I'm light as and need the lightest possible shoe, that's also cheap as chips. I don't want to even start running till I've got a correct pair of shoes (hitec squash won't do methinks). I'm doing well with the bike miles and don't want to jeopardise a thing.

Any help will be much appreciated as always!


As you are a supinator, whioch means you have rigid foot and tend to "roll out" (ankle inversion), you want to avoid a shoe built for pronators.  Pronators usually do well in a rigid, board-lasted shoe with lateral stabilization built into the shoe.  They also need a straight lasted sole.

Not you.

You say you run on your toes, and that's possible, but rare.  In any case, you will need a cushioned sole for your rigid (and supinating) arch.  The problem with cushioning materials they use in running shoes is that they break down.  EVA is such a material.  It is designed to break down (whether they tell you that or not).  However, the patented Nike "Air" cushion, which can be found in the heel, and in more expensive models, the forefoot of Nike shoes, is an excellent option.  I have never heard of them "blowing out", a concern when they first arrived on the scene more than 10 years ago.

Asics and Adidas and New Balance all have tried to compete with "Gel", etc., but the air cushioned system works extremely well.  I am also a high-arched, rigid supinator.  In addition, I am a heavier runner at 202 lbs., currently.  So I need some stability.  As you are "light as", you may not need that stability.  But cushion is paramount for people with feet like ours, CG.

That said, go to a store that focuses solely [sic] on runners and running, and get a gait analysis done if you can (usually a treadmill videotaped session).  I used to do them in my office, and they tell us a lot about your running biomechanics.  Short of that, go to the running shoe store, where experienced runners help you.  Skip the places where they sell all types of shoes and where kids who don't know anything are trying to sell you a shoe without even a glimmer of understanding of running and runners' needs (you know the type of place--in America, it's "Foot Locker" or "Olympia Sports"--stay away).

It's worth it to spend the extra money on a pair of shoes that is right for you.  It could save you thousands of dollars in medical expenses later on, believe me.  Chondromalacia patella, torn menisci, ruptured Achilles tendons, torn ACL's and other misfortumes all await the runner with poor biomechanics and poor shoes.

Try out several pairs.  And try them on after you've been on your feet for a while, usually at the end of the day.  Feet swell, so if you get fitted in the a.m., you may find that by the p.m., your new shoes are too small!  

If you are new to running, start by walking for several weeks.  When you're ready to run, start by doing 15 minutes of walking, increasing tha pace until you start to jog at the end of 15 minutes.  Do the reverse at the end of the run, colling down for 15 minutes.  Always keep the warm-up and cool-down, and increase your distance by expanding the middle section of jogging/running, between your warm-up and cool-down.  Follow the 10% rule (increase only frequency, duration or intensity by no more than 10% per week) or something similar that builds in rest to the training regimen.

You'll avoid injury that way.

Good luck.
last km

CG, the advice given by Happa Gal and Cape Roadie is spot on, I did some running in the middle of my cycling "career".......injuries are what you dont want /need....
cardinal guzman

Brilliant advice all round!

Armed with this, I'm off to 'Up and Running' in Manchester on Monday.
cardinal guzman

Went to the running shop! In the end it was down to some pearl izumis or these......

http://www.milletsports.co.uk/productmore.php?pid=16363

But these were miles more comfortable so that's what I got.

I'm starting Cape's injury-free programme on Wednesday  Cool  Cool  Cool
bbnaz

i love the color..........will be interested in hearing about how you feel after running a bit in them.
smarauder68

cardinal guzman wrote:
Went to the running shop! In the end it was down to some pearl izumis or these......

http://www.milletsports.co.uk/productmore.php?pid=16363

But these were miles more comfortable so that's what I got.

I'm starting Cape's injury-free programme on Wednesday  Cool  Cool  Cool


they look a bit cumbersome and heavy.
cardinal guzman

smarauder68 wrote:
cardinal guzman wrote:
Went to the running shop! In the end it was down to some pearl izumis or these......

http://www.milletsports.co.uk/productmore.php?pid=16363

But these were miles more comfortable so that's what I got.

I'm starting Cape's injury-free programme on Wednesday  Cool  Cool  Cool


they look a bit cumbersome and heavy.


They are 340g which is what, 12.5oz? They give me the stability I need, and I thought they were well light, though I have no frame of reference on this matter?  Smile

BB - I'll keep you all updated on how the running goes after the walking! Smile

With only the first 200yds of my planned training route on hard surface, stability became the biggest factor in my choice, though I went for a good level of cushion as well. The sales assistant is also a fell-runner and luckily for me, also a 'toe runner' which he says is a big advantage, and that I should definitely not try to iron it out of my gait, changing my running style possibly leading to complications apart from anything else (He also pointed out that whilst it feels like I'm running on my toes, I'm actually running on the balls of my feet).
forza_petacchi

Are those for Cross-Country running or track running?
cardinal guzman

forza_petacchi wrote:
Are those for Cross-Country running or track running?


Cross-country......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell_running Smile
bbnaz

My friend who does the Ironman competitions also did this:

http://tinyurl.com/6e5lt5


and is readying for her third running the Grand Canyon rim to rim.......



did I mention that she is nuts? Laughing
forza_petacchi

How long does it take Rim to Rim?  And which trail do they use?

I went about 2 miles down (and then 2 back up) [About 1300 ft elevation gain on the way up] Bright Angel last week.  It only took me about 2 hours (I was absolutely flying up - but I almost gave my self cramps).  I'll try to find some of the pictures that I took...
cardinal guzman

bbnaz wrote:
My friend who does the Ironman competitions also did this:

http://tinyurl.com/6e5lt5


and is readying for her third running the Grand Canyon rim to rim.......



did I mention that she is nuts? Laughing


She must be. I thought Cape was nannying me a bit saying I should start off by walking (I cycle miles, I'm a fit bloke), but deciding not to waste such expertise, I just did a brisk 8k walk yesterday with a steep uphill section in the middle over very rough ground, hard to decide whether it was mud-strewn rocks or rock-strewn mud.

Today, my feet, thighs and lumbar region feel like some security forces have been using me for baton practice, I can't imagine what I'd feel like if I'd tried running. (Ow).
CapeRoadie

cardinal guzman wrote:
bbnaz wrote:
My friend who does the Ironman competitions also did this:

http://tinyurl.com/6e5lt5


and is readying for her third running the Grand Canyon rim to rim.......



did I mention that she is nuts? Laughing


She must be. I thought Cape was nannying me a bit saying I should start off by walking (I cycle miles, I'm a fit bloke), but deciding not to waste such expertise, I just did a brisk 8k walk yesterday with a steep uphill section in the middle over very rough ground, hard to decide whether it was mud-strewn rocks or rock-strewn mud.

Today, my feet, thighs and lumbar region feel like some security forces have been using me for baton practice, I can't imagine what I'd feel like if I'd tried running. (Ow).


I only spoke from 30 years of experience, CG.  If I was nannying you, I would have advised you to skip the hills.  Maybe I should have!

Time for the foam roller!
cardinal guzman

CapeRoadie wrote:
cardinal guzman wrote:
bbnaz wrote:
My friend who does the Ironman competitions also did this:

http://tinyurl.com/6e5lt5


and is readying for her third running the Grand Canyon rim to rim.......



did I mention that she is nuts? Laughing


She must be. I thought Cape was nannying me a bit saying I should start off by walking (I cycle miles, I'm a fit bloke), but deciding not to waste such expertise, I just did a brisk 8k walk yesterday with a steep uphill section in the middle over very rough ground, hard to decide whether it was mud-strewn rocks or rock-strewn mud.

Today, my feet, thighs and lumbar region feel like some security forces have been using me for baton practice, I can't imagine what I'd feel like if I'd tried running. (Ow).


I only spoke from 30 years of experience, CG.  If I was nannying you, I would have advised you to skip the hills.  Maybe I should have!

Time for the foam roller!


Laughing  Laughing  Laughing Mental note made - never think you can mess with the doc's advice!

I'm resuming some kind of normality now, all energised and supplemented and gentle movemented. What would you suggest for the next time out, repeat the same trip? (I put the hill in, maintaining my steady pace as an alternative to increasing my pace) I've got a charity ride coming up on May 11th, so am thinking I might skip the footwork altogether until after then.
chasm

cardinal guzman wrote:

She must be. I thought Cape was nannying me a bit saying I should start off by walking (I cycle miles, I'm a fit bloke), but deciding not to waste such expertise, I just did a brisk 8k walk yesterday with a steep uphill section in the middle over very rough ground, hard to decide whether it was mud-strewn rocks or rock-strewn mud.

Today, my feet, thighs and lumbar region feel like some security forces have been using me for baton practice, I can't imagine what I'd feel like if I'd tried running. (Ow).


Hmm. Maybe I should have reinforced Cape's warning. During the winter I've been doing some running when I haven't had time or weather to get out on the bike. The difference is unimaginable. In fact, I suspect that being a cyclist made it worse - it feels as if some of the muscles and tendons - the quads, especially - that need to be long for running might actually be shortened by cycling. I could practically feel the fibres stretch with every step.

Whether this is physiologically sound, I have no idea, but that's what it feels like. Cycling absolutely does not prepare your legs for running.
happa gal

CG...listen to your body. If you are super sore then pull back some. Don't try to do too much in the beginning. When I started training I did too much running...and did it it too fast. I totally blew out my knee and could not train at all for two weeks....ouch!! That was a huge lesson learned!! I am very good about pacing and listening to my body now.

Also...don't worry about what others say about your shoe. The shoe selected is the best show for your feet.
CapeRoadie

cardinal guzman wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
I only spoke from 30 years of experience, CG.  If I was nannying you, I would have advised you to skip the hills.  Maybe I should have!

Time for the foam roller!


Laughing  Laughing  Laughing Mental note made - never think you can mess with the doc's advice!

I'm resuming some kind of normality now, all energised and supplemented and gentle movemented. What would you suggest for the next time out, repeat the same trip? (I put the hill in, maintaining my steady pace as an alternative to increasing my pace) I've got a charity ride coming up on May 11th, so am thinking I might skip the footwork altogether until after then.


Keep walking until you don't get sore anymore.  Then run.  Run in the exact middle of your walk.  Start with 5 minutes easy jogging.  Follow the 10% rule from there.  

You will get there.
CapeRoadie

chasm wrote:
cardinal guzman wrote:

She must be. I thought Cape was nannying me a bit saying I should start off by walking (I cycle miles, I'm a fit bloke), but deciding not to waste such expertise, I just did a brisk 8k walk yesterday with a steep uphill section in the middle over very rough ground, hard to decide whether it was mud-strewn rocks or rock-strewn mud.

Today, my feet, thighs and lumbar region feel like some security forces have been using me for baton practice, I can't imagine what I'd feel like if I'd tried running. (Ow).


Hmm. Maybe I should have reinforced Cape's warning. During the winter I've been doing some running when I haven't had time or weather to get out on the bike. The difference is unimaginable. In fact, I suspect that being a cyclist made it worse - it feels as if some of the muscles and tendons - the quads, especially - that need to be long for running might actually be shortened by cycling. I could practically feel the fibres stretch with every step.

Whether this is physiologically sound, I have no idea, but that's what it feels like. Cycling absolutely does not prepare your legs for running.


It does help a bit, though clearly running uses a very different set of muscles than cycling.  It's true that cycling shortens the hamstrings even more than running, which doesn't require all that much flexibility in the hamstrings to begin with.  The quads, on the other hand (front of the thighs) get stretched more in cycling (because the knee bends at a greater angle in cycling than running).

But the real problem is that running is a closed-chain exercise (feet make contact with the ground) and cycling is open-chain (feet do not make contact with the ground).  So the stresses placed on the legs, pelvis and back are entirely different.
cardinal guzman

Thanks again everyone. I'll keep you all updated on the next session after the 11th.

(white Rabbit) Wink
forza_petacchi

CG - That's what happens whenever I play football (real football) with my friends.  I play RB/WBR or M R and I track back a lot; while I'm playing I'm fine, but when I get home I just crash on the couch.
cardinal guzman

forza_petacchi wrote:
CG - That's what happens whenever I play football (real football) with my friends.  I play RB/WBR or M R and I track back a lot; while I'm playing I'm fine, but when I get home I just crash on the couch.


Hehe, I've seen a great many people throwing up during football matches. Like tennis if you're not accelerating, you're decelerating.

Boxing training is the hardest thing I've ever done though, by a country mile. It won't kill you, but you wish you were dead. Shocked
forza_petacchi

The upshot is that it burns a ton of calories - all my friends on the (NYC Champion) Track Team are skinny as sticks.
CapeRoadie

cardinal guzman wrote:
...Boxing training is the hardest thing I've ever done though, by a country mile. It won't kill you, but you wish you were dead. Shocked


I am seriously thinking of taking up boxing.  But only if I can guarantee I won't get hit in the head.  Sparring, I guess, is what you'd call it, CG?
cardinal guzman

CapeRoadie wrote:
cardinal guzman wrote:
...Boxing training is the hardest thing I've ever done though, by a country mile. It won't kill you, but you wish you were dead. Shocked


I am seriously thinking of taking up boxing.  But only if I can guarantee I won't get hit in the head.  Sparring, I guess, is what you'd call it, CG?


We did a sort of sparring, but only every few weeks and no contact, just into pads held by the trainer. We did many many many sets of gym exercises like squat thrusts, pressups, running point to point across 5 yards, and quite a lot of bagwork. All with a wiry little terrier of a man shouting at us and buckets around the place to be sick into as you carried on exercising; '10 more seconds at full' was his favourite and my least favourite phrase.

Honestly - I'd have given anything for someone to knock me out.
smarauder68

Basketball and Soccer....errrr football....Not many fat slobs playing those sports.
maffy

smarauder68 wrote:
Basketball and Soccer....errrr football....Not many fat slobs playing those sports.


indeed. i've often wondered what the graph of average haematocrit levels of footballers would look like over the premiership years.
CapeRoadie

cardinal guzman wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
cardinal guzman wrote:
...Boxing training is the hardest thing I've ever done though, by a country mile. It won't kill you, but you wish you were dead. Shocked


I am seriously thinking of taking up boxing.  But only if I can guarantee I won't get hit in the head.  Sparring, I guess, is what you'd call it, CG?


We did a sort of sparring, but only every few weeks and no contact, just into pads held by the trainer. We did many many many sets of gym exercises like squat thrusts, pressups, running point to point across 5 yards, and quite a lot of bagwork. All with a wiry little terrier of a man shouting at us and buckets around the place to be sick into as you carried on exercising; '10 more seconds at full' was his favourite and my least favourite phrase.

Honestly - I'd have given anything for someone to knock me out.


That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Severo

Fell running? Very envious. I'll get Ironman out the way first though  Cool
cardinal guzman

Severo wrote:
Fell running? Very envious. I'll get Ironman out the way first though  Cool


Ironman? Too tough for me - the distance I can swim depends on the depth of the pool, but it's usually about 3 feet! Laughing

I've been following CR's advice until yesterday, I felt confident in my joints enough to try to do an 11km route as fast as I could combining brisk walking and jogging up all the inclines. It took me just less than 2 hours including a 15 minute halfway break which seems appallingly slow in hindsight, but I'm reasonably happy as my goal in the race will be to complete the 14km course inside the cutoff time of 2 hours and I think I'm well on course for that....
http://www.lakelandtrails.org/derwentwater/events.htm (course profile is the sillhouette at the bottom)

(I expect to be last, but it's the taking part right? Rolling Eyes  Smile )
CapeRoadie

I hope you get away with it, too!
Slapshot 3

Wanna try Ice Hockey then boys.....
cardinal guzman

CapeRoadie wrote:
I hope you get away with it, too!


Well, I'm worried I'll be lynched by real runners who think I'm taking the piss, but otherwise I'm getting confident! Your advice has been brilliant and easing myself into it has been just the job. I carefully planned the route, so there would be no jogging in the first or last couple of kilometres, but three nice steady jogs in the middle, with me ready to bail out and walk at the slightest twinge - the trainers have stopped me rolling my ankle (cruckling as we call it around here) on two occasions when I was walking, I love them.

The route.... (turns out I did 12.5km - I'm doing better than I thought!)
http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-kingdom/halifax/267056446865

[/img]

I was slightly stiff when I woke up this morning, but half an hour and a hearty breakfast put paid to that.
cardinal guzman

Slapshot 3 wrote:
Wanna try Ice Hockey then boys.....


Hehe,

at 41, I think It's a bit late to be taking up that particular sport, and my nose is too big for the punch-ups!
Slapshot 3

cardinal guzman wrote:
Slapshot 3 wrote:
Wanna try Ice Hockey then boys.....


Hehe,

at 41, I think It's a bit late to be taking up that particular sport, and my nose is too big for the punch-ups!


Never too late my friend...42 still play, coach etc etc. Had a new guy start last season.....58 years old
cardinal guzman

Smile 58 is pretty good going - you poaching curlers from the national squad?
Slapshot 3

cardinal guzman wrote:
Smile 58 is pretty good going - you poaching curlers from the national squad?


No need, you make the training fun and exciting for folk they join up in droves our recreational group has over 70 members
CapeRoadie

cardinal guzman wrote:
CapeRoadie wrote:
I hope you get away with it, too!


Well, I'm worried I'll be lynched by real runners who think I'm taking the piss, but otherwise I'm getting confident! Your advice has been brilliant and easing myself into it has been just the job. I carefully planned the route, so there would be no jogging in the first or last couple of kilometres, but three nice steady jogs in the middle, with me ready to bail out and walk at the slightest twinge - the trainers have stopped me rolling my ankle (cruckling as we call it around here) on two occasions when I was walking, I love them.

The route.... (turns out I did 12.5km - I'm doing better than I thought!)
http://www.mapmyrun.com/run/united-kingdom/halifax/267056446865

[/img]

I was slightly stiff when I woke up this morning, but half an hour and a hearty breakfast put paid to that.


Well done!!  For ankle stability, try standing on one leg 5-6 minutes each day (switch back and forth for a total of 5-6 minutes).  Make sure to use good posture (eyes up, head up, sternum up, stomach braced somewhat).  Running is a one-leg-at-a-time activity, so one-legged training should be considered as part of the cross-training regimen.
cardinal guzman

Cheers Cape! I'll put that into action tomorrow.

I'm enjoying dropping 'my body mechanics expert' into conversations!
Severo

I just looked at the race website and it does look soo cool. Am very tempted by it. Maybe next year.
cardinal guzman

Severo wrote:
I just looked at the race website and it does look soo cool. Am very tempted by it. Maybe next year.


Very Happy Assuming I'm bitten by the running bug (and all signs are positive) and don't crook myself in the meantime, It'd be great to see a friendly face next year, albeit at the start as you disappear into the distance and the finish as you cheer/chortle me home! Laughing  Laughing

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