| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| HuwB |
Pro Tour Licences: French ToastLooks like the French have hit a new low, with both Cofidis and BBox failing to aquire the golden ticket.http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/E...sp%3FMenuID%3DMTYxNw%26LangId%3D1 The Shack? Mr McBrown Envelope continues to make it look as if he has soemthing to consider. |
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| Fontfroide |
Makes sense to me. Most French teams and most French riders are not worth their salaries, and fail to perform at the global level. The country is what, twelfth in the UCI rankings. Three guys from Luxembourg do better than all the French. Norway does better with two or three guys. But I have already said this.
I bet the shock will be HUGE. As far as I know NO ONE expected this. I am going to buy l'Equipe tomorrow for sure. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Yes and it has been shown that you were talking bollocks at the time. |
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| bianchigirl |
Actually French teams have scored the most victories this year in races ranked 2.2 and above, and are currently ranked 6th in the world.
Cofidis and BBox can surely expect a TdF invite but have clearly been sacrificed in the name of 'globalised cycling' Pat McTwat is truly beneath contempt |
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| Fontfroide |
MJM,
You thought so, and made your argument. But I remain unconvinced, so do most commentators (like Jalabert and Fignon). I don't recall you getting any support from anyone else on the forum. Just because you make an argument, that does not mean you are right or that anyone accepts it. Stay in your bubble thinking that French riders are good and the French train well, and their Pro Tour teams are excellent. You are alone. You think maybe you know ore about French cycling than Velo, Jalabert, Fignon and nearly anyone else? I doubt it. do you read the French cycling press? Do French riders get picked a lot to win? OK, Moncoutie got the mountains prize and wins a stage or two every year, Chavanel is a good domestique, and Sicard might turn out to be good (or Feillu or ...). But actually ... And this is more evidence. What do you make of this surprising snub? Its a flipping bombshell. I know, you will say the UCI is shite and McQuaid is a wanker. But this is huge snub. Really I never have read the least commentary suggesting this might happen, have you? Where? |
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| Fontfroide |
Source? France itself ranks number 12 last time I looked. French teams are sixth? maybe I underrate the teams? But not the French riders. 2.2? that mostly include all the French races that are mostly French teams and second string others, the French Cup. Anyway, I should look at the data you cite. |
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| HuwB |
UCI rules allow a maximum of 20 ProTour licenses, but are likely to give out fewer for the coming season. Cyclingnews reported earlier this week that three Professional Continental squads, Diquigiovanni, Cervélo TestTeam and Acqua e Sapone, would be guaranteed entry into the ProTour events by merit of their rankings in the World Rankings.
Bouygues Telecom and Cofidis were the lowest-ranked ProTour squads in the UCI's world rankings this year at 19th and 20th, respectively, lower than the aforementioned Pro Continental teams. Next year, three Pro Conti squads are guaranteed entry into Pro Tour races, based on their performance in the World Rankings (formerly known as the Pro Tour rankings). So, in essence, you can compete in the Pro Tour and earn Pro Tour points even if you don't have a Pro Tour licence? 
What a bargain! 
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You made several claims which were not supported by facts. Obviously you've got into the swing of the forum by not letting the facts or reality get in the way of your opinions.
It's a discussion forum not a popularity contest, so that no one else 'declared support' is irrelevant. Or does lots of people agreeing only count when it supports your opinion? French riders have actually had a pretty good season and if you bothered to watch the races rather than complaining you'd have seen that Sylvain Chav has had a good season, El Fares has won, Fedrigo and Moncoutie have also had good seasons and 4 different Frenchmen won stages of the TDF. You stick to the cliches and I'll stick to the facts. Huw - has McQuaid introduced relegation and promotion to the PT without telling anyone? My assumption is that the only thing a PT license is good for is getting an invite to the GT's. I can't see the likes of Cack doing anything outside of the TDF/TOC/TDU, and I can't see A-S doing anything outside of Italy. |
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| Biosphere |
Don't you remember posting on this thread? http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/sutra152756.php#152756 Don't you remember me posting this - it was directly after your post 
Kathy, Huw, myself have posted about a reduction in the number of PT licenses. McQuaid gave interviews where he said it. CN has reported it. What more do you want? |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
My guess is that the real losers here are not so much BBox or even Cofidis but rather the likes of Fuji, Skil and especially Saur-Sojasun who have made some big signings. The ASO will have a lot of teams wanting wildcards to the big ASO races and someone will get squeezed. | ||||||
| bianchigirl |
Bernadeau says it won't stop the team being aggressive or getting TdF stage wins - shame the likes of Milram don't take the same line. Seems to me you can ride an awful lot of second rate races and rack up a load of points the way the sport is currently set up.
Personally I think a relegation/promotion system would be welcome - just get sick and tired of the one country that has a real commitment to anti doping getting it in the neck whilst the doping teams march on. The entire PT system wants pulling down and starting again - when you can score a shed load of points for riding in Canada or India but not for competing in established races like those that comprise the French Cup then there's something wrong with the sport. I'd rather watch good small races that are well organised than a bunch of bloated super teams trudging round the world wearily dragging their arses through badly designed races on shitty parcours. Just my oh so humble opinion of course but Pat McQuaid is the worst thing to happen to the sport since Hein Verbruggen - oh, sorry, I forgot, he is Verbruggen to all intents and purposes and in thrall to the 'modernising' ideas of his best buddy Armstrong. Well, here's to the Conti teams - as in football, the real excitement is in the Championship these days not the bloated moneyed mess that is the Premiership. |
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| Fontfroide |
[quote="Biosphere"]
Don't you remember posting on this thread? http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/sutra152756.php#152756 Don't you remember me posting this - it was directly after your post
I guess I should have said that I read l'Equipe many days. I read Velo always, cover to cover. I read other French cycling mags from time to time. I have read nothing about those teams losing their license. So I apologise for forgetting that you had made a comment, a prescient one, about this. I meant in France, as I don't follow other cycling presses that much. And in the context of your comment on that thread, you were totally right to guess those teams. The French teams were obviously very weak. I could even be wrong about it being a big deal in France. Maybe everyone knew those teams would be relegated. But I thought it would be a big deal, and lead to renewed calls for reform for changes in the poor performance of French teams and riders. Even though it would appear that on this forum, everyone but me thinks the French are doing just fine. No one in my club thinks they are doing well. But I doubt we will resolve this, and I shall leave BG and MJM with their positive views of French cycling. Can it be really so that everyone else thinks the French are a leading cycling nation and their riders are at the cutting edge of wining races? Actually I just looked at the top 100 UCI ranking and it turns out that there are six French riders in the top 100, two in the top fifty (Chavanel and Fedrigo). In fact, if you take the top 103 there are eight. That is not THAT bad really. I expected less, although none of them are real stars. So maybe you could say, based on this ONE criterion, that the French are not awful, but mediocre. Although they have a huge population and a rich tradition, and they are not what they might be. 16 Spanish 14 Italians 8 Germans 7 Belgians 6 French 5 Dutch 4 USA 3 Brits |
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| HuwB |
Well, yes.
Taking his criteria to the logical conclusion. New teams don't feature in any ranking system, so, without serving at least a year's probabtion, aquiring a ranking, they cannot qualify above these two teams and so aquire a PT licence, no? That would the football equivalent a new team, call it Midlands United, being formed and Portsmouth being booted out of the Premiership, so they could be fitted in. Which, is exactly what will happen in Radio Shack's case. Meanwhile, Pat McRulefree, will find another set of criteria to ensure Astana are culled, too. Which brings us all back to the reason d'etre behind the PT, that of the stabalisation of the pro team's infrastructure. Nice one, Mr P.
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| Biosphere |
Stated aim 
Actual aim was UCI's attempt to pull a Mosley/Ecclestone |
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| bianchigirl |
It's interesting that you assume the French teams simply perform poorly because what? They don't train hard enough? Don't eat macrobiotic diets? Or might it be that they have longitudinal testing on top of whatever the AFLD/WADA/UCI dish out and that their poorer performances are due to the fact that they are actually CLEANER than other teams? I'm sure your clubmates would be delighted if the French riders could start charging again like anybody else but they have a federation that decided to try and clean up. Shame every other federation didn't follow suit.
But, oh, I forgot, Pat McTwat says that doping is finished so therefore the French teams are just worse because they're mediocre and have rubbish riders, right? Nothing to do with some teams charging up like lightbulbs, is it? Let's let the Milrams and Lampres of this world carry on regardless - the French make such a convenient scapegoat don't they? Romain Sicard pulls off a great Avenir/Worlds double but the French sport is just mediocre and none of the riders are any good? There are some great young riders coming through - I believe Romain Feillu is the top ranked Under 23 rider. France finished 3rd on the Worlds medal table and are leading the Under 23 Nations Cup. But I suppose this is all unbelievable if you just assume they're crap because they don't train properly blah blah blah - which is great talk coming from two old dopers like Hinault and Fignon. But enjoy buying the 'doping is over' bullshit coming out of Pat McTwat's mouth - I suppose it gives everyone an excuse to rag on French riders and to hail Armstrong as the saviour of 'clean' cycling
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| Mrs John Murphy |
FF you are making even less sense than normal. You seem to think that French cycling is crap because it doesn't live up to some mythical expectation of years gone past. With the exception of Italy, none of the traditional countries that have dominated cycling do so now.
Other than Gesink where is the next great Dutch rider? The Belgians are living off of Boonen and Gilbert, the Italians are limited to Nibs and hoping that Basso finds the Piti-juice again. The only country which is doing well is Spain and we all know the reason why that is. You might well read all those magazines but they clearly don't register with you. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
mmmm Bet L'equipe has plenty to say about this.
I think most folks who grew up into cycling through the late 70's and earlier 80's at the Badger's epoch think much of French cycling and the impact the French have had in global and in local terms. When we were in France this summer we went to a wee hotel, family run place a few k's from where our friends stay. Front of the restaurant was all rugby, as a rugby fan it was like a trip into a museum. Wish my French had been better to talk more but through the back room, the museum changed, it was all bikes. Ancient two wheelers to modern Carbon stuff images of the big climbs in the Pyrenees from the twenties and thirties. Our friend Chris who is fluent, asked a few questions for me. One of the bikes had belonged to Gustav Garrigou tour winner in 1911, signed framed pictures, of riders like Jean Robic, Luison Bobet, Roger Walkowiak and the famous pic of Lapize on the Tourmalet in 1910. Brilliant stuff. The owners father had been a local star in the 30s and had known these megastars. The man couldn't clear the bikes out, even if they wanted to because they were more important to the history of the family than the little restaurant itself. He said that cycling was life in France, it was at the core of the people like Whisky was something at the core of Scots. Once we got talking his English was good enough to allow us to understand each other; he talked about how the professional scene had changed after Fignon lost the tour to Lemond and that all of France wanted another Badger or another Anquetil BUT and this was the bit that stuck with me, the core of the sport was the amateurs, the little teams riding regional and local races every weekend and if another great comes along, superb but it won't change French cycling. I reckon in terms of the global impact this will hit hard but in local terms nothing will change. I've made a promise to go back in a couple of years next time we venture to France, this time as Jaques' guest, I wonder what, if anything will have changed. |
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| Fontfroide |
Romain Feillu is 25. Sicard is a good rider and the French hope he will do as well as possible, even if he is also Basque and rides for a Basque team. He did very well this year. No argument about him. It seems the consensus is that the French riders don't use the latest training methods. Yes, they don't train well or hard. Many riders agree with that when they move to new teams. Actually it seems they don't control their diets as well either. And Jalabert, among others says they have lost the "culture of winning". Yes he doped too, I know. My clubmates and others have used the "they are clean and the others are dopers" argument for years. They no longer use it so much, they just think there are no really good French riders. Although they still think everyone else is doping, except the French. Two French in the top fifty is not that great really. But you could easily be right that everyone else dopes and the French don't, I just could not say. As MJM points out, the Dutch and Belgians are not much better at this point in history, except they have a population one quarter or one sixth that of France. I never said "None of the French riders are any good". Never. I said they are mediocre and that internally many people say the same thing. I can't find team standings for the under 23 European Cup, so you could be right. I can find individual standings, but have no idea how they figure it out. Van Hummel leads and Feillu is fourth, but its not under 23. Where did you find this? Actually, according to most, Hinault didn't like training much either. And I never mentioned him, it was another old doper Jalabert I mentioned. But surely the fact that they doped does not preclude them from observing the French scene and commenting. Does it? I think that is all your points. |
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| bianchigirl |
I think your main evidence for the 'not training properly' argument would be Chavanel, who has moved to an acknowledged doping team and is now, guess what, training 'properly'. I'm sure he's preparing well to his heart's content. It's a shame but, now doping is dead, French riders don't have much option than to move to the Lampres and Quicksteps of this world if they want to win.
Feillu heads the 'young riders' classification which, like the MJ in the Tour, is up to 25 - my bad but the point remains, Feillu leads that classement, his brother was courted by Team Cack, Sicard had an amazing season - these are all bright young riders coming through and they're all French. FF I wonder why you bother to live and ride in a country for which you have such contempt. HuwB, that's McTwat for you - like Bio points out, all part of the attempted land grab with Verdruggen and Boss Hog quietly attempting to buy up the TV rights behind the scenes. Slapshot, this is exactly my experience of working with local race organisers and clubs and hosting the odd aspiring Brit - that's the lifeblood for the sport in France, the ProTour is simply the Premiership - bloated, ridiculous and a total circus. The Conti teams seem best off out of it. BTW where was the hotel? Sounds amazing and reminds me, on a grander scale, of all the many bars I've drunk in that had bikes and posters and fading autographed pictures still proudly displayed on the walls. Would love to visit the place you mention, though. |
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| kathy |
One repercussion already - Pierrick Fedrigo says he wants to leave Bouyges, because he 'can't imagine' riding for a Pro-Conti team.
Do you honestly think Chavanel has had a better season with QS? It appears to me that he's wasted most of his time having to ride for Boonen. He may have had a higher profile in the bigger races, but I'm sure he won more last year (I haven't checked!) I used to enjoy watching the French cup races. They were invariably exciting and attacking. I think McQuaid is trying to 'globalise' the sport before it's ready, thus devaluing some of the ñong-standing races in favour of badly-orgainised, bady-attended (by the top teams) 'showpieces' in non-European countries. Races in Dubai and the US should have to earn their place in the top tier, by proving their viability over a few years. I also believe that teams should have to earn their place in the top echelon, not buy their way in (or grease someone's palms) like Sky and possibly Shack. But all this is typical of the Verbruggen/McQuaid era of cycling. |
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| bianchigirl |
+1 Kathy - though I would say Chavanel has been more visible this year, though last year was definitely the breakthrough. He's been on the podium at Eneco, Algarve and Paris-Nice this season, though.
It's a shame Mmme Amaury allowed the ASO to be neutered in pursuit of the Yankee dollar - there seemed a possibility for a while there that the sport might get a calendar, a season long competition and an organising body that might promote a strong sport with a commitment to anti doping rather than a diversified sport, stretched too thin, with only a handful of credible races |
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| Fontfroide |
BG,
Gotta run now, more later. You have made several statements and I cannot find any way to verify them. Can you give the URLs for this information? France sixth in the world? Feillu top of the young rider classification of something? Standings of the under 23 Nations Cup? France most victories in races of 2.2 or above? I just can't find any of this information. Thanks for the comments anyway, it makes me think again. When and where and what did I say about "contempt for France"? I just said they are in a long patch of professional cycling mediocrity. Plenty of French themselves say that. It was the cover story in Velo Mag a few months ago. Jalabert says it, the bloody national coach. Hinault says it. Fignon says it. This does not indicate "contempt" just a particular perspective. As for why I live here, you know nothing about that. I have never mentioned anything about my personal life and why my wife and I live in France. And if I might have the audacity to criticise either the English way of life when I lived there and was a citizen, or the French while I live here, how dare you say anything about that. How dare you? Please restrict your comments to what I say and not what you infer. For all you know I might be trapped here by health reasons and poverty. For all you know I might be quite happy here. On the other hand, I might rather be in England. Do you know anything at all about my circumstances? NO. You have no idea and really should restrict yourself to what I say not what you infer. You don't know me at all. And incidentally, I can reveal that I LOVE riding my bike in France, although mostly I do it in my region, which is totally excellent in every way for riding. You would know this if you read any of my posts about riding here. More later about your lame defence of French professional cycling at the Pro Tour level (I have never said anything bout the local levels, never!). I agree that Sicard has great potential. I also would say that Romain is a good sprinter, but not at the top. I would also say that whether Brice makes it at the top level is something no one knows yet. More later. |
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| Fontfroide |
By the way, looks like I was wrong about the relegation of Bouygues and Cofidis. Nothing in l'Equipe indicates that it bothers anyone much, except Fedrigo who wants to ride for a Pro Tour team. The writers seem to accept that the two relegated teams are not that good and more or less deserve what they got. Although some mumbling about how Milram won less races than either of them, and might have also been relegated. Most think that it is just fine to be a continental Pro team, like Cervelo. Since they will do all the French races, the French championship and are guaranteed a place in the Tour de France, the teams don't seem to care. Bernaudeau says his sponsor is mostly concerned about France, so it is not a problem. Cofidis has made no comment yet,
So my wrong guess that it would cause a storm seems way off. They seem to meekly accept that last year there were five Pro Tour teams and next year two. My bad guess. |
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| SlowRower |
I once asked why you bothered following pro cycling, a sport from which you appeared to derive no enjoyment. I got a severe pasting for my impertinence. (Not from you, but from another "old friend"). I guess as FF says later in this thread that it's unwise to do too much interpretation of what people write, however tempting it is! |
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| bianchigirl |
FF, I used to get sick and tired when living in France of hearing ex-pats slagging off the French and calling them lazy, mediocre etc etc. I once heard someone say the French knew nothing about engineering! So, yes, some projection (and maybe a little jealousy - god knows I'd rather live there than here) and an apology.
I love pro cycling but derive no enjoyment from cheating and watching cheats prosper - is that OK by you, SR? FF you can find all the information on the UCI website, the velo club website and by looking at stats for race wins and adding them up. I've no doubt your clubmates despair - a characteristic I noticed in my friends and neighbours when I lived there was a fatalism and negativity. But I do get fed up with old French dopers criticising their younger compatriots who have to jump through medical hoops and controls the like of which Jalabert et al never experienced, and, whilst that's surely not all the story, it's equally unlikely that 'The French' don't know how to train or what the latest methods and nutrition are when they can look on any website FFS. Still, now that 'doping is dead' perhaps they'll drop all this stupid longitudinal testing business and get with the programme of the favoured teams. |
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| SlowRower |
Absolutely! My point was that I'd assumed because you were complaining so much about a narrow aspect of pro cycling that you didn't enjoy any of it. Definitely a misinterpretation on my behalf. FWIW, the French are pretty slick at engineering, I'd say. They certainly know how to build smooth motorways, fast trains, dams, nuclear power stations and airports. They are cr*p at supermarket carparks, though. 
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| Superbagneres |
By the way, talking about French supermarket car parks (I am doing a bit of a David Duffield here) I was reminded of the time I was in France with my wife a few years ago and we had to stop to get something from a supermarket and we knew there was a chain we had seen everywhere called Casino. Having found one I stayed in the car with our son while my wife went in, only to emerge a few minutes later to say that it was not a supermarket, but a casino 
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| SlowRower |
What was she doing in there for a few minutes? I suspect she knew all along, and was just after an opportunity to practice her latest card-counting strategy at Blackjack.
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| Fontfroide |
I accept the apology. As you could tell I got really upset about what you said. Especially since I never said I had contempt for France or riding in France. I just think the French pro cyclists, at this moment, are pretty mediocre, and have presented some of my evidence. I really don't think that the two best riders being 27th and fiftieth is a mark of healthy winning cycling culture at the Pro Tour level. I hope the young riders turn out to be world beaters, unlike the Chavanel, Fedrigo, Casar, Gadret, Di Gregorio generation, who really didn't do that well. Soft spot for Voeckler,but he is pretty average to good. As for France itself and the many kinds of French people there is much to be said. I do not consider myself and "ex pat", but rather an immigrant. I also live in the sticks, not in a big city. I have a complex view of living here, and have never thought the French were lazy or mediocre, although like the Brits in England, they have some weak areas, many of which have nothing to do with cycling. They also seem to often have troubles with "Anglo Saxons", as I have troubles with them. AND they themselves do plenty of critiquing of their country, so after eight years here, why shouldn't I? What do you think of the accurate news that Moncoutie used interval training for the first time this season? Does that indicate something? Anyway, I have searched the UCI site and found nothing you refer to, I will search the others. Where would I find stats for race wins at the 2.2 level or above? I really have no idea. |
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| Bartali |
Yeah ... if its true it means he's an idiot! Sorry to be so blunt, but interval training doesn't really fall in the 'latest training methods' folder ... I was doing it back in the late 70s and I'm a nobody. Be interested in Mr S's perspective on this as I think he's older than I. |
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| Fontfroide |
Bartali,
That was my point. A top level pro who refused, until this year, to use a totally proven method that was known to "everyone", and who trained on distance and "feeling", says something seriously strange about the control that some French managers have over their French riders, about Moncoutie and about French cycling. How can a rider just refuse to do that kind of training? |
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| kathy |
I remember reading an article in Vélo several years ago (Must be a at least six years, as I haven't lived in France since then!). It was interviewing some of the top French riders of the time, Virenque, Jalabers etc, and asking them about their winter training. It appeared there were no formal training plans and it was left very much to the riders' own choices how to get fit for the following season. For example, Virenque said he, Moreau, Brochard, Rous and Hervé went together to southern Spain, and followed a training programme devised by Hervé. Knowing what Hervé got up to, I wonder what the little extras were that Virenque didn't tell the magazine about
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| Fontfroide |
BG,
An attempt at a considered reply to your points. Your claims are in quotes, I think accurately. My comments follow. It was fun checking things out, and it always is hard to make open and shut cases, so thanks for making me look. “I believe Romain Feillu is the top ranked Under 23 rider ... Feillu heads the 'young riders' classification which, like the MJ in the Tour, is up to 25.” This ranking is only for Continental Teams. Certainly NOT for Pro Tour teams, which is all I was talking about. Or want to talk about. Sicard, for example is 13th. Two of the top four on AG2R, both French. And a third AG2R is in the ranking they give. Feillu DOES lead this classification of “young riders” who are NOT on the Pro Tour teams. Haussler second. “France finished 3rd on the Worlds medal table” This is purely and only a result of Sicard's gold. And the fact that in the English Wikipedia site, where I found “the medals table”, France comes first before USA and Switzerland in alphabetical order. The other two also won one gold medal. Oddly, if you look at the French Wiki site, they also list France third, even though “Etats Unis” should be third in alphabetical order. I admit that Sicard rode well, and is very promising, but it is not convincing piece of evidence for me in terms of French top level pro cycling as a whole. “leading the Under 23 Nations Cup.” This is absolutely true. I never knew about this competition, have no idea how it is set up and who rides it, how they score points and cannot interpret the lead France has, just ahead of Germany and way ahead of all the others. But you are right. “his brother (Brice) was courted by Team Cack,” Honest, I am not sure what this proves about anything, other than Brice is another young French rider who might make it and might not. I did think his stage win was impressive. “Sicard had an amazing season - these are all bright young riders coming through and they're all French.” Sicard did well. So did Bobridge. In fact, there are a lot of young riders who have done well, and I hope they turn out to be world beaters. There are always new riders coming up, which is what makes cycling great to watch over the years. But the new young riders are not all French. But I hope the new French ones do well in the top level. Guess we have to wait and see. Nothing is sure. “Actually French teams have scored the most victories this year in races ranked 2.2 and above,” I just can't find this information at all. Maybe they have more races in France? Are the French wining small races elsewhere? Do all countries have those second level series of races like the French Cup? They seem to have a lot in Italy though, so surprised the Italians are not up there. Still, I just cannot find this data. “and are currently ranked 6th in the world.” Although I am not sure what you meant here, they are ranked 12th in the world. From Velo club site Au classement par nations, après plus d'une décennie de domination du cyclisme international, l'Italie est pour la troisième année consécutive précédée par l'Espagne. En cette saison 2009, l'Espagne a véritablement atomisé les autres nations. Elle posséde près de 700 points d'avance sur son dauphin. L'Australie, troisième actuellement, peut même encore revendiquer la deuxième place. La Belgique est sixième alors que la France n'est toujours que douzième. |
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| bianchigirl |
FF the 6th ranking is on another competition - my apologies for the innacuracy. However, would you say that, for example, Haussler is not worthy of hype because he's only second on the young riders classement? I suspect not.
As other posters have pointed out, the future of French cycling looks considerably more healthy than that of some of the other leading nations - I was simply providing some information you may not have considered about the talent coming through - talent that isn't necessarily being matched by Spain and Italy, for example. However, I still maintain that what you see as 'mediocre' may simply be the result of far more stringent medical testing than exists in any other nation and that, were other nations to emply these methods, we might see many other riders exhibiting what you refer to as 'mediocre' performances. Of course, we have some evidence of this already with many busted riders never achieving the same level of performance post suspension. I see some green shoots of recovery in French cycling, you see mediocrity - we'll have to agree to differ is all. |
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| mr shifter |
Oh dear and there I was just having a browse, so I.T. has been around 40 or more years to my knowledge and I tried it but found the punishment in Chain Gangs suited me better as a miniaturised version of Jens Voigt. 
Yes I must be older (but an RTA caused me to Early Retire, long ago) and now I'm   that you did I.T., but did you race also. ??
FF your point is justified by the French only allocated 6 riders in the World Elite Road Race and GB had nine for a complete turn round. (didn't give us any better results with the usual two finishers) Norway 9 Nederlands 6 Be Lucky |
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| Fontfroide |
I often see green shoots in cycling. French or otherwise. We shall wait and see. For me it is judging or evaluating what is, not what might be. I hope the French recover, as they are slightly embarrassing just now. Its been years they have been hyping the Chavnanel, Casar, Fedrigo, Voeckler generation, and they just have not made it on the global stage, although all are "good" riders and have their wins. Haussler I like. He has already "made it" in my mind. Certainly a better rider than Feillu, who is a better than average sprinter, but not at the level of the best. Yes, we agree to disagree. In the spirit of the sport. |
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| bianchigirl |
And Norway almost couldn't get a team together because they had EBH and Hushovd and then...?? And the GB team got nine because Cavendish has no real opposition in the sprints at the moment (something like 50% of their total qualifying points came from him).
Sure there's been a shift in the powerbase but that's not necessarily due to the quality of the riders - other factors such as harsher anti doping measures and the popularity of other sports have been contributory factors. At the end of the day, BBox and Cofidis don't actually need to be PT to race the calendars that their sponsors expect them to race. For me it's not so much the fact that their PT licences weren't renewed but rather the ridiculous excuses given for taking them away to give to Teams Sky and Cack who will be far more valuable to McTwat's 'global' dream/land grab with Verbruggen & Armstrong holding all the TV rights. |
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| HuwB |
Sky? Exactly right BG. Taking in a results basis, I assume they got a licence based upon EBH, as there aren't many other winners in their.
Who else has won a couple? Gerrans and...... Lucky he took those 4 stages of the Tour of Britain and Ben Swift came up with one.
The Shack will get a licence based upon no Tour wins. but a third place and LL's huge California and....erm Castilla y Leon overalls. A pity Moncoutie alone, could only manage a stage of the Dauphine, Vuelta and the KOM jersey. Perrick Fedrigo and Tommy Voeckler has never won anything.
Money and some sort of perception about a brave new media world. |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Voeckler won Stage 5 of this yea'r's TdF! |
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| Fontfroide |
I could not agree more.
It is now totally normal, acceptable and legal for the UCI, like any business, to make decisions based on profit or some mixture of profit and "sporting reasons". It is also true that the dominant vision is very much global expansionism. If you look at the list of teams last year, and see FIVE French teams, in spite of their overall mediocre records, you can see that it is better for business to have THREE American teams and get rid of a French one or two. So I reckon a Japanese team with five or six Japanese and a couple of has been former glorious riders would get a license. Or maybe the big dream ... A Chinese team advertising two or three big Chinese products. Or maybe one sponsored by some oil money, a toy of so;e rich oil guy. Its not just because he is Lance that The Shack gets the license. It is because with Lance you make money, the punters turn up, the cyclists ride with him. And I guess we all know that unless some huge money appears, Astana will also relegated so the other markets can be well and truly cracked. The point of the Pro Tour, obvious by now, is to make money for the UCI. Depending on what the UCI do with it, this can be good or bad. If they ploughed it into grass roots cycling programmes and regional trainig centres (the rolling eyes iconette here) , maybe taking fro the rich top layer and redistributing it is q good thing. |
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| SlowRower |
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before, but the demise of Cofidis as a top team is surely Armstrong's final revenge on them for "dumping" (as he perceives it) him when he was ill. | ||||||
| Fontfroide |
SR,
Now that is what I call creative! If you ever get the hint of some hard evidence, I would love to know about it. It is said that if you ever cross him you get remembered. |
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| SlowRower |
No evidence FF, just extrapolation of the two beliefs
1) Armstrong hates Cofidis 2) The UCI is in Armstrong's pocket |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Conspiracy theories abound about Armstrong/Cofidis.
I thought were going to pull the plug on sponsorship anyway. |
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| SlowRower |
Armstrong's first book is a rich source of material for such theories, even though you need to read between the lines a a fair bit. He does casually mention that Cofidis did finally pay him for the entire term of the contract without exercising their renewal option, which doesn't seem unreasonable in the circumstances. Still, Armstrong believes they treated him badly, and from a motivational viewpoint, it doesn't matter whether this is true or not. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Armstrong hates the French for a lot of reasons - I don't think he has ever gotten over Gilles Bouvard slapping him around like a rag-doll in 1996 |
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| Fontfroide |
What happened in 1996 with Lance and Gilles Bouvard? What does slapping around mean? | ||||||
| Mrs John Murphy |
Armstrong tried to pick a fight with Bouvard and got his arse handed to him. Cried off the tour the next day with a 'bad back', black eyes and wounded pride. | ||||||
| cadence |
Demanding television schedules and cruel weather have made Tour de France life harder than usual, and yesterday the former world champion Lance Armstrong joined the list of drop-outs.
Armstrong who on Thursday came close to blows with the French rider Gilles Bouvard yesterday threw in the towel after 75 kilometres. The Tour doctor, Gerard Porte said: "He is totally exhausted from his racing so far this year." Armstrong was not alone. In all 14, including Wednesday's stage-winner Cyril Saugrain, quit yesterday, and three others were eliminated for failing to beat the finishing deadline. That brought the list of missing in action to 31 in the first wee http://www.independent.co.uk/spor...g-joins-the-dropouts-1327513.html |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/tour96/rep5.html Nice try fanboy but re-writing history won't wash. Watched it at the time and laughed my fucking arse off, still makes me chuckle now. Armstrong was pissed off because he was sucking more dick than a whore on pay day in the TDF as per usual, tried to throw his weight around and got slapped back by Bouvard. I forgot - you weren't watching in 96 were you. |
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| SlowRower |
MJM - The only reference to Armstrong in your link is in the final paragraph:
"Several crashes today. One in mid-bunch has Lance Armstrong show up at last.... in a near fist fight with Lotto's Gilles Bouvard." Are you re-writing your own history? Surely you can come up with a link to an actual fight and pictures (or at least eye witness accounts) of the black eyes. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Re-read the link - 11 lines from the top. Perhaps you should try to pay more attention. You fucked up again, so no, not re-writing history. I'll leave that to you and the fanboys. | ||||||
| SlowRower |
You are indeed correct - must improve the old speed reading. The final paragraph does contradict the earlier reference, though. (An issue for autobus editors, not you.)
"Briefly coming to blows" hardly does the scenario you describe justice, though. That would be good to watch, though I doubt it will make it into the Armstrong highlights box set. |
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| HuwB |
Yes, hence the rolleyes. Fedrigo won the "mountain" stage, into Tarbes, too. Voeckler won good quality French races, early season, Fedrigo also bagged a Dauphine stage......... 
Dunkerque......not finishing last......again. So, on rumbles the debate, but it's definitely, the shiite end of the stick. If they just wanted a better excuse, they could have come up with their Giro exclusion, due to always fielding piss weak teams, there.... ......oh wait! SaxoBank.....
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| mr shifter |
My memory is a bit hazy and will have to play a Tape because if something (even then) befalls "Mr Nobody" the Bighead Texan, I must have it on tape. eerr, don't bother to tell me he is now Mr Media moneybags ??? !996 - clear memories of Alex Zulle in the rain winning the Prolog (well he falls off in the rain quite often), of Bighead ripping his number off and riding the opposite way on his own (I thought he was sulking) and the week of rain continued that day as the "Boogey Man" and his Teeth wins his first stage in Aix-le-Bains. Then the heavy Snow in the Alps and that I was not there after 7 years on the trott and I had planned to sleep in the car on the Galibier. (would have been snowed in and seen nothing) and of course "RIIS" the scumbag. ! ! |
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| cardinal guzman |
Haven't cofidis been meaning to do one for a while now?
If any team should have their licence revoked it's FDJ - something to do with teams sponsored by a gambling concern not being allowed to race in France? |
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| Biosphere |
No. Apparently gambling is fine when it's the state pocketing the punters losses. Unibet were a a private company hence they got screwed over in many ways. As for the PMU betting booths in "pubs" in France, with betting on US racing during the evening drinking hours? Apparently that's all good too and no reason to bar PMU from being a headline sponsor
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| Bartali |
Back in the day Mr S ... way back. Tonight I do my first race in over 25 years!!! 12h mtb race ... so doesn't really count as a 'proper' race! |
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| Beasley |
Dusk til Dawn? Best of luck! | ||||||
| cardinal guzman |
Remember Bart - No Survivors! Annihilate them.
 Best of luck young owd bugger.
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| mr shifter |
I'm more confused than ever about your earlier posts.
12 hour mountains, Where in Essex, ?? like Harmon's mountain bike chain gangs. Good Luck, whatever the road or Footpath and trying to ride for 12hours is enough challenge. 
Be Lucky, |
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| Fontfroide |
Just saw this today in my latest Velo. The article was on Jimmy Casper.
"So when he got ready for his season, Casper left nothing to chance. At 31, if his motivation was still there, he had the wisdom to start from square one with his training. 'I had a tendency to do hours in the saddle and not much intensity' explained the Picard, who is working in the future with his director sportif Nicolas Guille". The clear implication is that he did NOT work with his DS as a trainer before, and was one of the large number of French riders who just do not have a trainer, do not follow the team trainer and do not really have a serious modern programme, except what they make up themselves (nearly a third of the professional riders polled, according to a previous issue on French training). Needless to say, Casper is the winner of the French Cup this year, not some second rate rider. Well he is maybe bit slightly second rate, but still, as a Frenchman, a winner. I am looking back over that previous issue of Velo, and will give some more survey data and some quotes. Although there is no hurry. This does not mean I don't like French racing locally, or the richness of the French cycling culture, including sportives, and the huge number of local clubs. Just that they are somehow, in addition to (maybe) being cleaner than the Spanish or Italians or whomever, really in a rather long period of mediocrity, globally speaking. And there are reasons, including archaic and individualist and "un-professional or backward training". |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
And so fucking what? You seem to spend all your time re-hashing the same bullshit that old dopers like Jalabert, Hinault etc churn out (amusingly for someone so up on French riding you knew fuck all about Jalabert being a junkie).
Your claims about French training seem to require a fairly hefty mental jump - you have a one sentence quote from Casper and use that as evidence that all French riders train in an unsophisticated and unstructured way. Even if this were the case - you would still need to demonstrate that this is the exception amongst all other professional riders - ie that the 'French' are the only set of riders who train without structure or recourse to 'modern' methods (perhaps you'd rather they all shacked up for some innovative and modern training with Ferrari and Cecchini?). How does this compare to Dutch, German, Slovenia, Spain, Italian or Portuguese training regimes? You're stretching a point based on very little other than an obvious bead-on when it comes to French riders. |
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| Fontfroide |
I'll give you more quotes, and you will dismiss them all. But I do agree, if I had said nothing else than one quote from Casper (and to be honest, you can't always trust quotes anyway) then you might be unpersuaded. But I have said a lot of other stuff. Most of which you ignore. Or explain with your usual good results equal doping, bad results mean clean. I a; saying the mediocre results of French riders are caused by more than them being "clean". And French commentators and riders know this.
Because Hinault, Fignon and Jalabert (and many others) doped, therefore nothing they say about French racing is true or worth hearing. Logic? Connection? Are you seriously claiming that the national coach of France knows little about French racing because he doped as a rider? I don't know THAT much about French racing. I try to listen to what people who know more say and write. I don't know what a bead-on is? I assumed Jalabert doped all along, just as I assume that Indurain did. I just asked for hard evidence in my ONE post abut this> check it out before you put words in my mouth. On this forum (practically) everyone is accused of doping at the drop of a hat by more than just you. On the other hand you are obsessed with it. Often I ask for evidence and once in a while I get it. I also am not talking about Italian or Portuguese racing, just French and what people, including the riders, journalists and others say about it. It is true, and a fair point, that to be a truly accurate commentator I would have to do a detailed comparison with all other countries. I can't and won't. But I can tell you things about the French and what they themselves say. I still have no idea how anyone can say that a huge country with a rich cycling tradition and strong grass roots cycling culture can be twelfth ranked on earth. Twelfth? They have two riders in the top fifth, none in the top twenty five. The only real question is why they are mediocre, not whether. By the way, when I say modern I mean power tests, interval training, good diets, SRM cranks and such. NOT drugs. Are you capable of posting without referring to drugs or that someone's coach or DS used drugs therefore ... More later. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You are extrapolating from very little. That is all. I am dismissing it because it is intellectually sloppy and piss-weak.
You say the French aren't training right and yet without any comparison to training methods employed by anyone else I fail to see how you can make any kind of judgement on the training methods employed. If the training employed by Spanish riders is radically different then you might have a point but at the moment you've got fuck all to support your argument. When the French were successful there were only 5 nations seriously competing in the pro-peloton. Today there are about 25. Basic maths. The French, like the Dutch etc were big fish in a very small pond. The pond has got bigger and they are no longer the big fish. You can crack out all the Velo quotes you want to bash French riders over the head but the fact that you can't even grasp the changing nature of the peloton in terms of its national make up shows how ill-founded and illogical your opinions are. |
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| cadence |
Enter Lance Armstrong....
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| Mrs John Murphy |
I'll leave the fantasies about entering Lance Armstrong to you.
However, more to the point - 10-15% of the current peloton come from countries, which before 1989, did not allow their riders to enter the professional peloton. Compare a start list from 1987 to a startlist from 2007 and you'll see the globalisation of the peloton - and the resultant squeezing of riders from 'traditional' cycling nations. If any country has something to bitch about it is the Dutch. However, rather than look at the changing dynamics of the peloton - FF would rather repeat the tired old pro-dopers mantra of 'not training hard enough'. Remind me FF who did Jalabert achieve all his success with - was it with that master training expert Manolo Saiz? Remind me what teams was Virenque riding for when he had all his success? Must have been those Festina and Polti training programs that helped him to all those victories. |
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| Fontfroide |
“intellectually sloppy and piss-weak” My standards of evaluation and intellect are at least as high as yours, I am utterly certain. Why do you just say such silly things without backup?
“ill-founded and illogical your opinions are.” How are they ill founded and illogical? You never say. I gave you all kinds of data, maybe you don't read the posts. Check out my considered reply to BG. Plenty of facts there. What is so ill founded about it? What is illogical? “I fail to see how you can make any kind of judgement on the training methods employed.” I agree, that is why I use quotes from inside people who DO know about the methods used. THEY know, I don't. THIS YEAR Bouygues finally forced their riders to all have power measuring devices (capteurs de puissance, I am not sure what term to use in English, power meters?) for the first time. In addition for the first time, they hired a trainer, Marion Clignet, whereas before they had no specific person at all. Your point about a bigger pond is a very good one. There are more nationalities and cycling is more global. Yet it is crystal clear that the Italians and Spanish (maybe even the Australians) are doing quite well, way better than average, and the French are not. Like the Dutch. Some countries are doing well, so;e are not doing well. I am just saying the French are not doing very well. They just are not producing the best riders. I mean 27th and 50th is not impressive, it just is not. Even if, like many people, I would love it if the French had some very classy GC and one day riders. “Actually, these teams should have followed the example” (of Hinault, who had a trainer, a dietician and a physical assistant) notes Eric Boyer, the Director Sportif of Cofidis. “But the reality was not like that. The teams created since then have, for the most part, been set up by managers who were ex-riders. I am not criticising their competence, but I think that they wanted to manage everything without delegating, and that became the problem. For me, that is one of the reasons that the gulf has opened between our cycling and that of our neighbours.” Vincent Villerius, hired just this year as the first fill time trainer for Cofidis. “Ten years ago precisely, Bernard Bourreau, then responsible for the French junior team, called on Frederic Grappe (a modern sports expert who works out of, I think, Besancon University). The French juniors all worked with a power tap type system (I really am not sure what to call capteurs de puissance). In the end, it would be nearly ten years for half the French pro peloton, that is 48% according to your survey, to equip themselves with this tool. That is crazy! In 1999, certain countries had used it for several years (these tools were created in 1989).” He then goes on to say how French cyclists resisted the cooling vests in the recent Olympics. “French pro road cycling works by mimicry, but behind, it is a follower not an innovator and that shows in the results” The article continues … “a fact which Bradley McGee confirms. The French do not try to optimise their performances by modern training techniques, that's the observation that I have made. But whether in the media or on the side of the road with supporters, they love the rider for his courage and not for his way of training. Its a typical French phenomenon. In Australia, for example even the media have a much more technical approach to cycling.” Frederic Grappe. “Look at the result of your survey, it shows quite well that 59% of the riders work with a personal trainer or all by themselves. What is the legibility (lisabilite, I am not sure how to translate this word, maybe benefit, transparency) for the employer? We stay in a liberal system where the rider has the right to do whatever he wants.” |
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| bianchigirl |
FF ever stopped to wonder why the Italians and Spanish are doing quite well - and what the correlation there is between anti doping laws (non existent in Spain until a couple of years ago) and the nationality of the best known doping doctors.
Just interested to know what your thoughts will be, FF, when some of the big names from the TdF 2008 get popped by Pierre Bordry and the AFLD. I've no doubt the over achieving Italian and Spanish riders will cry 'sour grapes' because the French are so mediocre. I would be interested to see some facts and figures on the way the top Spanish and Italian riders train - don't forget that a great deal of the benefit of EPO/blood doping is to aid with recovery and to enable athletes to train harder/longer. Have you considered that riders who aren't using PEDs may simply not be capable of the training regimes of doped up riders? |
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| bianchigirl |
The FFC have just released figures that show a few pros using corticoids - oh dear, seems the French are hopelessly outmoded in their doping practices too! | ||||||
| Mrs John Murphy |
FF - if your intellectual standards are as high as mine then you show no evidence to demonstrate that it is true. You are limited to pulling out quote from old dopers to prove that French riders are alone in not using 'modern' training methods. As I say - without any frame of comparison the argument is nonsense.
The whole 'French don't train hard enough' is just a way for old dopers to cover up the fact that the only reason why they ever had any success was because they were doped to the gills - and Bradley McGee whose road record was based on his ability to ride a decent prologue. It is nothing more than tilting at windmills. You are with all of the loaded meanings looking for the great white hope. And again - 27th on GC? No, French, Le Mevel came 10th and they had 4 riders in the top 20 - ironically more than any other nation in this years TDF. |
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| Biosphere |
FF
I do remember you lecturing me on why power meters should not be used, when I was saying that if a technology came long it would be used irrespective of rights or wrongs. Are you now arguing that when technology comes along not only will it be used, but that it should be used to keep up with the times?
Anyway, I've read that comparisons of longitudinal HCT values show the French having a significantly lower average than other cycling nations. I've not been able to find a link for that though. Sorry. |
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| Bartali |
Interesting argument. Just to throw out a thought ... I remember reading that Valverde does not train with power meter or a heart rate monitor - preferring the 'natural' feel! Not sure what that means but clearly you can get to the top the old fashioned 'french' way ..... one way or another. | ||||||
| Biosphere |
He only uses natural additives
Cue the Mark's +Spencer music. We take the finest Murcian red blood cells, spin them until they're rich, thick and creamy, chill to an optimum temperature and then age for 45 days . . . . Apologies to those unfamiliar with M+S adverts. |
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| Fontfroide |
I never said that. Find me the quote, and I will apologise, otherwise you need to. |
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| Fontfroide |
This is the second time I have referred quite clearly to the 27th and 50th place in the UCI rankings for Chavanel and Fedrigo. What is it that you don't get about that? They are the best French riders. What is it that is so hard for figure out about that? And yes, the TDF is the be all and end all of all French riders. And they did manage one guy in the top ten, and others as you suggest. It is ironic. And taken by itself, that one result, would indicate that the French riders are better than any other country. |
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| Fontfroide |
I do apologise for not being able to attain the lofty intellectual standards that you have. Or match the courtesy, respect and the high quality language you use against people who disagree with you. Should I top myself, stop writing on the forum, believe everything you and your camp followers say? Tell me, mighty intellect, what should I do? The last four quotes I gave are NOT from old dopers, McGee, Boyer, The FDJ trainer and Casper. Although maybe they are dopers, nearly anyone is for you. I picked them because they are insiders and know more than I do. There are plenty more quotes in that cover story in Velo. I asked you why you are so certain that none of these people are reliable sources of commentary on the French cycling scene and you reply that some of them doped as riders. Your "logic" is that no one who dopes knows anything? No one who dopes could have anything to say about racing in France? I got no answer, even when I quote insiders who are not dopers. I note you do not reply to any of my figures, just give me yours. Great debate style. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Do stop being such a hypocrite and so fucking precious. You are quite happy to give out the personal attacks so stop fucking complaining when they come back at you.
Yes you are being intellectually sloppy. You know full well that any quantitative data is always context bound. The UCI rankings reflect the UCI's own weighted rankings - some races receiving more points than others and favouring GT's over all other races which has a distorting effect. However, if this is the set of data you wish to use then so be it. Two French riders in the top 50 - And so what... there is only one Dutch rider in the top 50 and only two Belgian riders. So does this mean that the Dutch and Belgians don't train hard enough either? And do stop wheeling out the old 'size of population chestnut' because if that were the case then the national representation of any state within the peloton would always be proportional to the size of the population of the state concerned. When you start treating the facts and figures seriously instead of cherry-picking then I'll respond. You've moved the goalposts from 'don't train hard enough and are all crap' to 'don't use modern training methods'. As I have said - this may well be true - but to posit this the explanation for why the French are not dominating the pro-peloton like they did in the past (with such clean and alive riders like Anquetil), is only valid if 'successful' riders are using different training methods and approaches - you have yet demonstrate that successful riders do adopt a different training approach. It's a fairly simple question and one which you have conspicuously avoided. So lets just break down your beloved rankings 'evidence', and take a wider survey size than the top 50. As a point of reference 7 of the top 50 riders are from the post-1989 countries. Lets break down those top 50 by nationality (excluding those banned): Spain - 10 Italy - 9 Australia - 4 Russia - 3 Germany - 3 France - 2 Belgium - 2 USA - 2 Luxembourg - 2 GB - 2 Norway - 2 Denmark - 2 Countries with 1 rider - 5 What does it show - it shows that 19 out of the top 50 come from two countries and that the other 31 spots are made up from riders from 15 other countries. So does this mean that the Spanish and Italians are the only countries to have sussed out how to train. Who'd have thought that the Germans and Aussies would be so far behind... Change the frame of reference and in the top 100 riders in the world according the UCI we have 8 French riders which is not really a very bad performance and 15 in the top 150. Ten percent of the worlds top 150 riders are French (21 in the top 200). A similar situation is repeated for Dutch riders 1 rider in the top 50 but 5 in the top 100 and 8 in the top 150. 2 Belgians in the top 50, 6 in the top 100 and 7 in the top 150. What stops the Dutch and Belgians from performing really badly is that they have Gesink and Boonen respectively who are elite riders - and with the exception of Spain and Italy, almost all countries only have one true elite rider. So really the question should be why is there no French elite rider - and when you see that the top two riders in the UCI rankings are Piti18 and Dertie Contador it is pretty clear why they are number 1 and 2 and it isn't anything to do with training hard or using modern methods. |
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| SlowRower |
Not anything? Does that mean that Bertie and Piti would be ranked #1 and #2 if they went on a couple of club-runs at the weekend and did circuits on a Wednesday evening for their training? Irrespective of the dope that a rider is taking, they still need to train hard - not necessarily hardest, but still hard - because if not, other doping riders will train hard and beat them. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
But if the rankings FF's chosen method to decide training effectiveness are anything to go by, then clearly training methods have nothing to do with how you perform since Piti uses old fashioned out-mode training methods and he still comes in number two on the rankings. Just imagine if he were to follow FF's advice and use modern methods he'd be the second coming of Merckx. | ||||||
| SlowRower |
I can't get away from my favourite point, namely that there are many factors that underlie performance levels, training regime being but one of them. | ||||||
| Fontfroide |
No I haven't. The quotes I gave are people who convinced me that there is something poor quality about how the French train. Do you not read the quotes? Why do you think those people are wrong? Its not me, I am just the messenger. I do not claim that I myself am familiar with exactly how French Pros train. I use quotes and descriptions of those who do. If I want to argue something about how decisions are made in some organisation I don't know, I ask or quote those who do. Standard practice. And if I read that guys like Moncoutie and Casper have JUST BEGUN to do some kind of intensity training, previously riding long hours and and without any modern training tools, I am struck with that. when I read that until last year, NO French team had a full time trainer, I am struck by that. Before I read about it, I really did not know that. Show me where I say that the ONLY explanation for French riders' mediocrity is bad training. It could be other reasons AS WELL. I just am not talking about them. Like maybe they are all clean and everyone else uses drugs. 16% of the riders polled in that Velo issue think that is the case. In fact, a quarter of them agree with you that the French are not actually that bad. Show me where I said French riders are all crap. I said they are mediocre. Like the Dutch and Belgians at this moment, but I was not reading and quoting from any mags or authorities or active participants in Belgium or Holand. The title of the mag I read and was quite struck by is "Enquiry: The French, Do They Train Badly". I am passing on information from that mag and adding other information that I gather and respondng to other people's posts and facts. I never said they don't train "hard enough". Find me where I said that. I claim that one of the explanations and one of the questions is whether they use modern methods, and whether they have professional trainers, whether the teams look after the rides or leave them to do whatever they fancy. In other words, are "up to date". It appears they might not be, too individualist, not even using power cranks, not using interval/intensity training and generally not taking that seriously. There is plenty of evidence and testimony about that. This is not q big surprise. The French are at the cutting edge of some practices, and way behind in others. I should think that this is the case in every culture and country. I am simply relating the supposed facts from what I read in Velo, pertaining to that one area, pro cycling training. I certainly agree that every ranking system has a bias. Do you know a better one? Looking at your cited data, I come to the conclusion that the French riders are mediocre. Loads of countries produce better riders in spite of having a smaller population base, and a more recent and less rich cycling tradition? Looking at that data, would you really say that the French are doing "well", are "above average" or would you say they are average or even below average. If so, that is the end of our argument. I don't dispute your data, I dispute your interpretation. What about a comment on the other data that BG and I discussed? |
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| Fontfroide |
I totally agree. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
And so what? You've got no term of comparison regarding training techniques so your conclusion is worthless.
I'm not interested in ploughing through umpteen very long and boring posts to find out where you said what. Mediocre/crap, it is all the same thing - essentially denigrating French riders. As has been pointed out Valverde 'officially' doesn't use modern training methods so explain why he is ranked second in the world? |
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| Biosphere |
There was nothing offensive in my post, and I've not been personal in anyway on this thread so I'm not sure why you feel the need to get all precious about this. I was being lighthearted in my post and no apology will be forthcoming. It's a lazy Sunday, relax. Regarding lectures, you could read on from here http://justcycling.myfastforum.or...a142308.php&highlight=#142308 I was just trying to say that I didn't think power meters, heart monitors, radios etc. were as bad as being made out. You certainly did lecture me on blindly worshipping technology and offered up a big serving of platitudes with an implicit criticism of power meters. When I finally managed to get you to be specific your sole comment on power meters was that you didn't think they were useful in a race. My quote from this morning that you've taken offence with captured the spirit of your previous posts and IMO was not a distortion of what you previously posted. Once again no apology will be forthcoming. This is a forum - not every idea that gets posted will be to your liking, but as long as I'm not having a personal go, I don't see the problem. |
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| Fontfroide |
From that thread. What I actually said a couple of posts down about power meters.
"By the way, my comment was not about doping or about power meters in races or training, it was about your bold statement that "seemed" to say that if there is technology that works, we have to or will use it. We don't have to. We can choose to ban this or that kind of technology in any kind of activity. And we should make those choices. That's all I said." I just don't think it is fair, right, respectful to say a person said something when they didn't. You won't admit it, fine. And you call generalisations platitudes, fine. I think both specific and general are necessary to understand something well. And in my posts I try to do both, and certainly did both in the thread you mention. But really it is not right to claim people said one thing when they actually said another. Being a forum does not give you the right to distort what people say. And when you say I say something it IS personal. Even if it is Sunday and you want to relax. |
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| Biosphere |
Then you should go through the Le Sale Tour and count the number of times you did just that with me.
There's nothing to admit. I've given my honest interpretation of your lectures to me. I was speaking about power meters and you decided to tell me and the rest of the world how to live our lives
By that logic every time I discuss what someone posted I'm making it personal. That doesn't wash. Making it personal is when I start insulting you. |
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| bianchigirl |
There was a time when riders actually (gasp, shock, horror) rode bike races to get into shape for their main objectives.
I find it telling that HWSBN is saying that the Giro is great prep for the Tour - funny how he never rode it during his TdF winning streak then. Definitely many factors that underlie performance level, SR, and whilst 'training' and 'doping' alone do not a champion make there is a great deal of evidence that doping aids recovery aids better training |
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| Fontfroide |
I looked over the Sale Tour thread. Here is something else I said, quite clearly. "Before things get too confused, I don't think I have said a word about power meters or HR monitors. Personally, I love my heart rate monitor and my altimeter and average heart rate and so forth. I am sure it is a useful training tool for serious athletes. I am not a serious athlete, just someone who loves cycling ... watching, reading, doing. I love getting better figures on various routes. I love to know the heart rate of riders on a climb. I don't actually have any problem with those pieces of technology, although I have not thought much about them. I am pretty sure a power meter is not all that useful in a race, but I wouldn't know, having never raced. My only point has been that we human beings can choose which technological innovations we want to use and produce legally. We can ban some, we can not buy or buy others, there might always be a black market. But above all we can choose, in most circumstances, and we do it all the time. No technology MUST be used. That's all." You just got it wrong, confused me with BG or something. I don't think I ever misquoted you at all. Never. |
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| mr shifter |
I'm not sure what this is, ?....with all the shite flying around here. HWSBN is the Texan I presume and he couldn't ride the Giro because he didn't arrive in Europe till the end of MAY when he had gathered all his special equipment he needed. ??? 
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| mr shifter |
Well ordinary training wasn't working against that German Juiced Telekom Team and so if you can't beat them, well join them and they sent Bertie off to Germany to get the stuff to Level the Playing Field. Now I wonder who it was that Tipped off the French that "A" Belgian would be along. At a time when thousands of Belgians cross that place commuting to work or shopping. Be Lucky |
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| HuwB |
Instead of the endless circle of bickering, why not speculate upon who, on this list, won't be subject to the AFLD's 2008 Tour sample re-testing?
40 of this list, based upon results, are under scrutiny. EVANS Cadel MCEWEN Robbie SASTRE CANDIL Carlos ARVESEN Kurt-Asle CANCELLARA Fabian SCHLECK Andy SCHLECK Frank SANCHEZ Samuel VALVERDE Alejandro ARROYO DURAN David SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon KIRCHEN Kim BURGHARDT Marcus CAVENDISH Mark CIOLEK Gerald POZZATO Filippo KREUZIGER Roman BALLAN Alessandro HUSHOVD Thor GERRANS Simon BARREDO Carlos STEEGMANS Gert DESSEL Cyril EFIMKIN Vladimir ELMIGER Martin VALJAVEC Tadej CASPER Jimmy FEILLU Romain MENCHOV Denis FREIRE GOMEZ Oscar PINEAU Jérôme ZABEL Erik CASAR Sandy CHAVANEL Sébastien GILBERT Philippe ROY Jérémy COBO ACEBO Juan Jose CHAVANEL Sylvain DUMOULIN Samuel DUQUE Leonardo MOINARD Amaël VANDEVELDE Christian FRISCHKORN William MILLAR David PATE Danny Maybe easier to pick the 5 lucky miss outs. |
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| SlowRower |
Indeed. My statement of the blindingly obvious that "there are many factors that underlie performance" was semi-ironic, as MJM and I have wasted many hours of each others time debating her claim that "the only factor underlying Armstrong's performances is unique access to Ferrari Superdope". (Not debating as one would normally interpret the word, obviously - we've just restated our own views repeatedly in a variety of ways... )
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Huw - I don't think being a Giro winner gets you the same level of protection as being a TDF winner - so my guess is that Menchov will go down. I also wonder if they are targeting Piti to force the UCI's hand re-Puerto/CONI.
Reckon the Columbia boys can sleep safe and sound. Ditto Saxo. Cofidis/QS/Liquigas/Rabo riders are the ones with plenty of reasons to shit themselves. |
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| Biosphere |
No x 5 |
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| HuwB |
Sticking to this thread.
Now, it's Gerdemann in the German media spotlight for "suspicious" values, back in '06. It never rains, but pours.... http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/sportnews_59780.htm |
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| maffy |
linus was top ten in a tt with a broken leg. why not take it back to the shit fan hit thread rather than the latest pointless arguing practice one?
hey bart, tell us about the race. |
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| Bartali |
Thx for asking Maffy
last night was not my finest moment. First ever mtb race ... in fact first race since I was a teenager! First time riding in the dark too ... and first time off road on a mtb for over a year. All in all not a good plan ... but oh well! Did three laps of an 11 mile circuit plus 2.2 miles start circuit. Combination of lights and bumpy single track made me throw up ... though it was also clear that (a) I can't ride fast off road (too scary) and (b) I should have ridden as part of a relay team like most people did rather than try 12h on my own!! Bottom line ... I bailed out after three laps and spent the rest of the night in my tent! 
From now on I'll stick to the road. |
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| SlowRower |
Bart - Think positively - You still did 35+ miles of off-road riding, which is a good workout in my book! | ||||||
| maffy |
yep, 35 miles on knobblies sounds plenty. well done anyway, but the lack of relaying seems a strange choice
what next on the comeback trail? shame you've missed this years three peaks, you loon
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