Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling
 


       justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge
mazda

Olympics on Eurosport

I watched the snowboarding final last night.
As a newcomer to the sport I found it quite interesting watching the different lines, changes in speed and the interactions between "regular" and "goofy" riders.

However, as ever  Rolling Eyes the commentating standard was rubbish.
As an example, in the final, after Holland had slid out, the commentator got the identities of the two chasing down Robertson the wrong way round, for the whole of the race !
So as they crossed the line the plucky french outsider was proclaimed the winner instead of the defending US champion (who actually had made a very spirited defence after qualifying only 17th).

This would be like confusing Voeckler with Armstrong, in favour of the former.

Actually made the usual cycling commentary look good.
Plus no obvious anglophile bias either.
Mrs John Murphy

Who was doing the commentary? Maybe the lack of anglophilism was due to: Harmon being no where near the event, and no British involvement.

That said if you want British cheerleading then you just need to be unlucky enough to tune into the BBC.
Geraint

Fabulous Phil Liggett used to call the ski jumping on the Aus coverage, inspite of probably knowing nothing about the sport. Not sure if he still does becasuse Im not watching, although I might look out for Johnny Weir who is going to be spectacular.
happa gal

At least you are getting live coverage. I am in the same tome zone as Vancouver and NBC is still using the taped delayed coverage!!  WTF?? NBC sucks!

We were able to stream Eurosport live until last night when we lost all of the live links.....did I mention how much NBC sucks!!!

I am all about Team USA but would love to see more than just the American athletes....and again NBC sucks!
thunderthighs

not wacthing any.. ciao
fede40

I love how everyone hates their own national coverage of the olympics: Rai commentators are all about italian athletes, and if there none around then they'll start digging up family trees until they find the most remote italian connection to - possibly- the strongest athlete around (whichever event they're showing). sometimes it's easy peasy: as in third or fourth generation so will recognise the italian surname. and will make sure to pronounce it the italian way. other times is about them having trained in italy for half a day, and yet that short time must have been crucial for their performance...

beebs is not worse than any other broadcaster, actually they'll even give you a chance of following more than one event. if an italian has half a chance of getting a medal in the most obscure event rest assured that RAI will show it even if it's clashing with something much bigger...
bianchigirl

BBC is ALL about the US athletes which annoys me - the old 'they speak English' bollox - was watching the ice skating and Sue Barker positively wet herself when a no hope US pair supplanted the French pair. I absolutely hate the assumption that, because someone speaks the same language, you have to be a fan/follower.

And when will the Beeb stop with the luge tragedy stuff? And why are the UK media spouting the 'worst games ever' line - could it be because the US media are? Apologies happa, know you aren't a 'USAer' but it really makes one queasy
70kmph

Am watching it live commercial free coverage on the internet, fantastic
cardinal guzman

Great games so far - hate the media wank over the dead Georgian but death sells so in come the vultures.

I would love - love to try the skeleton.

Main BBC coverage crap - all interviews and no sport as usual but the red button is top banana! No sleep for a fortnight.
berck

happa gal wrote:
At least you are getting live coverage. I am in the same tome zone as Vancouver and NBC is still using the taped delayed coverage!!  WTF?? NBC sucks!

We were able to stream Eurosport live until last night when we lost all of the live links.....did I mention how much NBC sucks!!!

I am all about Team USA but would love to see more than just the American athletes....and again NBC sucks!


My feelings exactly about NBC. Virtually no live coverage, and if they do do it, it only live in EST areas.
SlowRower

cardinal guzman wrote:
Main BBC coverage crap - all interviews and no sport as usual but the red button is top banana! No sleep for a fortnight.


Absolutely spot-on. The red-button coverage has been superb. There appears to be very little national bias - just commentary on events as they unfold.

I would dispute their claim that XC skiing is "the hardest endurance sport in the world". Everyone knows that rowing is harder, if only because you can't wear gloves when it's cold. Smile
mazda

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
Who was doing the commentary?

Don't know, sorry. I'd recognise him if I heard him again (and he did sound vaguely familiar).
I tuned in for the Ladies event last night and we had a Candian commentator instead.
SlowRower

bianchigirl wrote:
And why are the UK media spouting the 'worst games ever' line - could it be because the US media are?


I think it's more likely due to three factors:

i) Bad news stories are always more likely to draw in readers than good news ones. The UK media is critical of all OGs in general. Atlanta (genuinely cr*p) and Salt Lake City (fall out from IOC backhanders scandal) took a real pasting, and I doubt this was following a US lead. The media were practically wishing Athens and Beijing to be failures in the run-up. Only Sydney escaped the hatchet-job treatment.

ii) The worse the Vancouver Games appear to have been, the less bad the London Games will seem in comparison - a bit of patriotism from the UK media for a change!

iii) As always, if short of a story, the media make them up, and because of (i) the made up stories are more likely to be bad news stories than good news ones.

The real issue is why the Games were awarded to Vancouver in the first place. (I know the reason - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - so the issue is why the Games were so awarded when weather and snow-condition delays were virtually guaranteed, when there must have been much more suitable places that could generate the same sorts of cash.) As any ski tour operator will tell you, the snow is great high up, but it often rains in Whistler itself. The racers want bullet-proof ice, not the soft, fluffy stuff that holiday makers love.

Whistler was abandoned as a world cup venue in the mid 90s because so many races were abandoned due to soft snow conditions lower down, and given the dimension requirements of a world cup / OG downhill course, there is no option but to finish the course at or close to village-level. I guess even in North America, extending the mountain upwards is a non-starter. Smile

Interestingly, it's apparently warmer in Sochi - the venue for the 2014 Games - now than it is in Whistler, which doesn't bode too well for next time!
Mrs John Murphy

The other problem with the winter games is that it is this odd mix between traditional sports and 'newer' sports like snowboarding. The newer events have been put in to make the winter olympics more interesting to a North American audience - the rest of the world knows this and so those events have very little credibility outside of people who are x-gamers. It is the similar to putting skateboarding into the olympics.

Every Olympic seems less and less credible. Having the Games in London is going to be even worse.
Geraint

I think its generally a good idea to include those new sports. They cant keep the same range of traditional sports and ignore new sports. Most people have almost no understanding of winter sports, apart from the figure skating. The extreme sports add much needed colour and excitement.
happa gal

Geraint wrote:
I think its generally a good idea to include those new sports. They cant keep the same range of traditional sports and ignore new sports. Most people have almost no understanding of winter sports, apart from the figure skating. The extreme sports add much needed colour and excitement.


Totally agree!! Bring on the "new" sports!! Just wish along with xc snowboard events....they would add xc cycling!!

berck...Seattle Times sports columnist Ron Judd speaks about the tape delay controversy....and NBC still sucks!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/ronjudd/2011098934_judd17.html
SlowRower

The Boardercross stuff is fantastic. I've always wanted the downhillers to set off simultaneously, and this is what we've got (albeit on the dreaded snowboards).

It's a natural sport as well - get from A to B as quickly as possible - with no distortion from judges. I reckon Boardercross Biathlon - with shooting after every jump - is the next evolution...Smile
Mrs John Murphy

Aren't we in danger of being a bit hypocritical here though? We're in favour of new sports as long as they don't mean the removal of our own favoured events. Afterall, plenty of people are pissed off about the cycling events being cut in favour of other 'more popular' events.

Sorry but snowboarding is a beach activity in the snow.
SlowRower

I may be wrong, but I don't think the new Winter OG sports are instead of other events. The scale of the overall event is much smaller than the Summer OGs, so new sports can be added without existing ones disappearing.

I remember Ice Dance, SuperG, short track, women's ice hockey, and all the snowboarding stuff being added, with nothing taken out. Could be that they've removed sports that the UK media didn't cover though.

As a skier, snowboarding is the Devil's Work, but exciting none the less.
berck

happa gal wrote:

berck...Seattle Times sports columnist Ron Judd speaks about the tape delay controversy....and NBC still sucks!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/ronjudd/2011098934_judd17.html


Doesn't surprise me about their response. They've taken that attitude since NBC has been broadcasting the olympics. What I find most frustrating is that there are events that they can broadcast live in primetime, but choose not to at all.

I've come to the point that I basically stopped watching the olympics and just look at results off the web. Sometimes I've found that NBC or others have shown some of these events on the web much sooner (or live) than I can on regular TV.
Geraint

I think short track is a mickey mouse event with always the chance of a comical spill, but people seem to like it. If curling is a permanent fixture in the games, then there is scope for a lot of other weird events.
Geraint

At least if you live in a traditional winter country, you can watch your athletes who have genuine medal chances. In Australia, they are going to show their own athletes, but almost all of them are just there to make the numbers. Doesnt look like Johnny Weir is going to win a medal unless he literally pulls something out of his ass.
cardinal guzman

I enjoy watching the xgames stuff on the odd occasion but only boardercross and skicross (why is this not in the games?) are competitive sports - the others are exhibition sports with judges deciding how well a competitor has done.

Boardcross and skicross should be done on the downhill courses without the artificial banks and jumps best reserved for the exhibition events - as it is, whoever starts quickest wins or falls.

Snowboarding's ok - just a bit slow and ungainly.
billgull

Dutch speedskater Sven Kramer gives NBC an interview Very Happy


Link
kathy

FIDDLE!!  The magnificent Evgeni Pluschenko did not get gold Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad
SlowRower

Well that serves the Russians right for rigging the vote against T&D in 1994. Smile

Joke - honestly!
Slapshot 3

kathy wrote:
FIDDLE!!  The magnificent Evgeni Pluschenko did not get gold Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad


I hate figure skating with as much loathing as is possible (probably because i've been force fed it for most of the last 35years) but that was criminal, Pluschenko was so much better. He's the only one I'd watch
cardinal guzman

Figure skating is another exhibition sport - nice to watch but ridiculously subjective.
Geraint

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...21810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Why I dont really like the artistic sports. You can have the best, most beautiful performance and not win because of some inexplicable scoring and the faceless scorers dont have to explain their reasons. Once you see a few gymnastics competitions where the girls get robbed blind, you get sick of it.

Some people would say its nice that Russia doesnt win every time, but he did get robbed. He was technically so much better than Lysacek, put it all on the line and lost to play safe routine. If they are going to argue that Lysacek was 'artistically better' then how did the Weir's artistically great program score so low. Anyway, for once the men's program, with all its personalities and drama, is the highlight of the competition. Dont think I will be watching any of the other skating. The women sound boring.

I dont get the arguments that Weir got robbed because of his 'flamboyance'. If they had something against gay skaters that would eliminate a huge section of their competitors surely. His outfits were colorful without being over the top. If anything, his skating might have lost points for being a little too bland. Daisuke had a very tight and expressive program, he could have sprung a surprise if he had made the quad jump.
smarauder68

I think Weir is experiencing a serious backlash for his "in your face" I'm a diva, hear me roar, schtick...The gay culture that runs the sport would rather have its homo's semi-closeted.  They probably resent Weir for being so bold and out there.

I think Pluschenko got penalized for calling out Lysiceck for not being athletic enough. Again, the gay culture didn't like this gamesmanship and decided to reward the more artistic, less athletic.

Its an interesting debate that has been brought up for years on both sides.  Reward the Michelle Kwan's the sport for grace and artistic prowess, or the freakish Tara Lipinski's who can jump thru the roof and stick landings?

I have a hard time spotting the mistakes in this sport, but for what its worth, the Eurosport duo pointed out time and time again that Pluschenko's transitions were a mess, while Lysicek's were seamless and smooth....given a 50/50 coin flip, I think  the judges decided to knock Pluschenko back for minimizing the artistic side of the sport.
Geraint

I dont know too much about how to mark the artistic component, but Lysacek didnt seem to be hugely superior to the point that he could negate Plush's obvious better jumping. Its very unusual for an American to be considered much superior artistically to a Russian. The commentator on my coverage was saying that Plush has good, precise footwork. Im sure if the judges really started marking up artistry, all the skaters would dump the quad jumps and start flailing their arms, then in reaction, the judges would switch back to rewarding 'technical excellence'. As I said before, artistic sports are nice to look at, but the b.s. scoring is the worst part.
Slapshot 3

Geraint wrote:
I dont know too much about how to mark the artistic component, but Lysacek didnt seem to be hugely superior to the point that he could negate Plush's obvious better jumping. Its very unusual for an American to be considered much superior artistically to a Russian. The commentator on my coverage was saying that Plush has good, precise footwork. Im sure if the judges really started marking up artistry, all the skaters would dump the quad jumps and start flailing their arms, then in reaction, the judges would switch back to rewarding 'technical excellence'. As I said before, artistic sports are nice to look at, but the b.s. scoring is the worst part.


....and that technical scoring BS is sooo much better than it was. few years back my daughter was competing at UK open competitions, the scoring was so vague and so false it was a joke, one skater could be scored either 1.0 or 5.0 by two different judges...trust me it's better now.

Fact - the quad toe loop is the jump with the highest technical score possible, if landed it gains 9 points where as a failed quad reduces to 4, ie a triple, make a mess of that you end up with 1 or maybe zero for a jump.

So on the basis that Pluschenko had a quad and EIGHT clean landed Triples, he was robbed. However, the marks were close enough that the judges can get away with it. I think there was a wee bit of the new blood in there couldn't have an old winner winning again!!
smarauder68

I've just realized that Eurosport doesn't show the medal ceremonies and I haven't really missed them...lol...

They're almost militant about getting from event to event and for that I applaud them.

I think they should find some more credible European based commentators for the Alpine ski events...The so called expert there has a thick scottish accent...Don't recall any Scotsmen ever medalling in the olympics let alone appearing in Alpine events. Surely, there must be Franz Klammer or Stenmark out there they can bring in...
SlowRower

smarauder68 wrote:
Don't recall any Scotsmen ever medalling in the olympics let alone appearing in Alpine events.


Surely you must remember Mr Vicks Inhaler himself, Alain Baxter?
smarauder68

SlowRower wrote:
smarauder68 wrote:
Don't recall any Scotsmen ever medalling in the olympics let alone appearing in Alpine events.


Surely you must remember Mr Vicks Inhaler himself, Alain Baxter?


Heard the name but don't recall his exploits.

Looking forward to the 2nd half of the men's combined Super G.

Love that event where they have to race downhill AND slalom...a true test of the best overall skier.

Looks like Svindahl is going to be the man after the downhill heat.

But the pure slalom guys can take a full second from Svindahl so it will be close.  Can't wait!
kathy

I think the commentators on the Alpine events are pretty awful - they're part of the 'I love Bode' fanclub.  Apart from that, they're hopeless at predicting how a skier is going.  If one of them says a skier has just made a mistake, you can guarentee they'll be up at the next time-check, and vice-versa.

SM, Alain Baxter won a bronze medal  (for slalom, I think), for GB, but had it taken away.  He'd bought an inhaler in the US with the same name as the British one.  But it turned out to have a different formula, and was illegal.  His explanation was accepted, but he was still stripped of his medal.
cadence

Geraint wrote:
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...21810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Some people would say its nice that Russia doesnt win every time, but he did get robbed. He was technically so much better than Lysacek, put it all on the line and lost to play safe routine. If they are going to argue that Lysacek was 'artistically better' then how did the Weir's artistically great program score so low. Anyway, for once the men's program, with all its personalities and drama, is the highlight of the competition. Dont think I will be watching any of the other skating. The women sound boring.



Despite the scoring power of the quad, Lysacek outscored Plushenko, 84.57 to 82.71, in program elements. Even with the quad, Plushenko's eight jumps or combinations brought him 63.77 points to Lysacek's 63.47 points off jumps, in part because Plushenko received lower grades of execution scores because of some unsteady landings.

Good spin control
Where Lysacek won the gold was in the complexity of his spins and footwork. Four of Lysacek's elements in that area were graded at Level 4, the highest level in the ISU system. Plushenko had two Level 4 elements. Also, Lysacek had grades of execution of at least 1.0 on six elements with two negative ratings while Plushenko reached 1.0 on only three elements with one negative score.
Superbagneres

kathy wrote:


SM, Alain Baxter won a bronze medal  (for slalom, I think), for GB, but had it taken away.  He'd bought an inhaler in the US with the same name as the British one.  But it turned out to have a different formula, and was illegal.  His explanation was accepted, but he was still stripped of his medal.


Also worth mentioning that Baxter has taken up cycling, and I think is still trying to get into the Scottish Commonwealth Games team.
smarauder68

GOLD for Bode Miller, coming back from 7th place to beat the downhill specialists....

That's Gold, Silver and Bronze in these Olympics for the best all around skier in the world!

Very interesting guy too...had a chance to meet him and drink a few beers with him after a World Cup event a few years back.
happa gal

smarauder68 wrote:
Very interesting guy too...had a chance to meet him and drink a few beers with him after a World Cup event a few years back.


Bonnie D. Ford, long time ESPN sportswriter has alot of nice things to say about Bode Miller.

Regarding Lysacek and Pluschenko...Lysachek understood the new scoring system, skated a flawless program to maximize his points. Pluschenko chose to put all his eggs in completing his one quad and did not maximize the scoring points. I'd say Lysacek simply out played him. Nothing was robbed....and Pluschenko simply acted like a baby complaining he should have been won.

Speaking of drama...anyone watch the USA-CAN hockey game yesterday? Whoa!
cardinal guzman

smarauder68 wrote:
GOLD for Bode Miller, coming back from 7th place to beat the downhill specialists....

That's Gold, Silver and Bronze in these Olympics for the best all around skier in the world!

Very interesting guy too...had a chance to meet him and drink a few beers with him after a World Cup event a few years back.



I was well pleased to see him get that gold - very popular is Bode round these here parts. Someone described his skiing as the equivalent of a leMans driver getting to the chicane on the Mulsanne straight pretty confident that he can make it without taking his foot off the accelerator. Cool
bianchigirl

The scoring system can be exactly what the judges want it to be in ice skating - they seem to be able to upgrade and downgrade elements at will. Without the quad, the men might as well skate with the women as there is nothing to separate them anymore - there are several women who, if they skate clean are quite capable of outscoring Lysacek. Having said which, Kim's triple-triple combo outscores Asada's triple AXEL combo. Again, safety triumphs over innovation.

I enjoyed Stojko's take on it - especially his comment that this is now the only sport where pushing the boundaries is not rewarded (what a joke). http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...21810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
SlowRower

The OGs wouldn't be the OGs without complaints about the figure skating scoring!

Interesting point about chucking the men in with the women though. I guess if that happened, the men would start peeling out quads left right and centre to demonstrate their inherent "superiority".

The system isn't cast in stone though. Compulsory figures were ditched in the 80s, and there was a new scoring system introduced recently, so there's no reason to believe that the powers that be won't consider re-balancing the scoring system.
smarauder68

I really think the judges were teaching a lession to Pluschenko...they probably didn't like his badgering Lysecek about not trying the quad...
Fontfroide

bianchigirl wrote:
The scoring system can be exactly what the judges want it to be in ice skating - they seem to be able to upgrade and downgrade elements at will. Without the quad, the men might as well skate with the women as there is nothing to separate them anymore - there are several women who, if they skate clean are quite capable of outscoring Lysacek. Having said which, Kim's triple-triple combo outscores Asada's triple AXEL combo. Again, safety triumphs over innovation.

I enjoyed Stojko's take on it - especially his comment that this is now the only sport where pushing the boundaries is not rewarded (what a joke). http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...21810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


I saw this line in the article you mentioned.
"In what other sports do you have to hold back in order to win?"

I thought .... cycling?
bianchigirl

Looking at Contador's decisive attack at Algarve, and LeMevel's race winning move at Haute Var I would have to disagree.

Lysacek has tried the quad- fell flat on his arse - he can't do it. His coach claimed he had a stress fracture of his foot that prevented an attempt (but still allowed him to land triples??) then later said, sorry, he was wrong, fracture was misdiagnosed. Fine, you can't do the quad, but stop making excuses. Like I say, if all competitors in solo figure skating are 'only' jumping triples then let's see them compete together. But this rubbish that Lysacek - the skating semaphore signal (are there more wooden arms in the sport??) - is somehow the poster boy for great transitions and artistry? Do me a favour. The fact that, until shortly before the games the ISU were sending out a video to judges with examples of bad judging practice that showed footage of Plushenko being 'overmarked' for transitions - and that that was followed up by a widely circulated email from an American judge urging judges to mark transitions fairly - didn't influence anything. And monkeys are flying out of my arse as I type.

As has already been pointed out on this thread, there are far too many subjective events in the Winter Olympics - the only reason figure skating still gets a berth is because NBC paid an awful lot of money for TV rights and want 'female friendly' sports in the games to maximise their viewing figures.

Actually thought the Japanese skater deserved to win - tried the quad and gave a superior performance to both gold & silver skaters.
Slapshot 3

We all sit and slag off the UCI about the way they manage the sport....you want to try the ISU!!

I'll only watch two groups of Figure Skaters, John and Sinead Kerr, because they are friends of my wife and daughter and I've met them on a few occasions and Pluschenko because in all the years I've been around skaters, ex girlfriends, wife and sprog he is the only person who has almost excited me with his programmes...note almost!!

In these major competitions you take skaters like John and Sinead the highest place they'll ever get is 5th because they are not allowed to break the top 5, their scores will never breach the top 5 levels because the judges are prescoring. You can almost forecast to a level way above that of SM where who will finish. The Canadians were always going to win the dance, and for me lysacek was always going to take the mens, Pluschenko would have had to land every jump as a quad to win.

The British champs skaters have to qualify for the finals through a series of opens. They are loosley scattered around the UK to get the finalists. No-one can break into these finals unless there is a sodding miracle because the judges know who they want and the referres ordain the qualifiers.

Example, Sprog went to a Bracknell open a few years back, she'd just missed out at our "local" open in Dumfries by finishing 4th. Now same programme 1 judge was the same as Dumfries who scored her to finish second, a second judge she'd never seen before scored her second but the third (a new one) scored her 9th and last she finished 8th, the referee who had been in Dumfries accepted the third judges score on the technicality of her music, they decided it just wasn't quite right, the only reason she placed 8th ws because one girl gave up half way through. When her coach demanded explanation he was told "we didn't like the music and that it wasn't her year for the finals". He refused to kick up hell about it because it would effect him and his other kids......  Rolling Eyes  suffice to say Sprog was heartbroken and with the rink closing it was the last chance she ever had.

We talk about corruption at many levels in sport what does that tell you about figure skating. The UK will never have champions if that doesn't change and while the new scoring system made it cleaner, it's like saying that microdosing epo made cycling that wee bit cleaner as well!!!

Can't tell I'm a bit pissed off about that can you???
berck

bianchigirl wrote:

Actually thought the Japanese skater deserved to win - tried the quad and gave a superior performance to both gold & silver skaters.


The silver skater winner thinks he won the platinum medal.
bianchigirl

Slapshot, I love figure skating - have done for years right back to Irina Rodnina and the Protopovs - whilst the cynic in me says that yr daughter's story simply confirms everything you knew was going on in the sport I can see why you'd be absolutely gutted - such a disgrace.
Mrs John Murphy

On the subject of being a whiny bitch can someone tell Vonn and her husband to shut the fuck up. The whole 'they set the course against me' has to be the biggest load of bullshit since all that whining about her shin. Always got an excuse.
SlowRower

bianchigirl wrote:
I love figure skating - have done for years right back to Irina Rodnina and the Protopovs...


Surely if you've followed figure skating for so long you must expect voting irregularities / disputes / stitchups and have to accept them as part of the "game". There is always the "off" button...Smile

I remember in the early 90s the Soviet pair (Klimova and Ponamarenko if memory serves) were outraged when the French pair won the Ice Dance world champs just before the 1992 Olympics. They'd finished 3rd in 1984, 2nd in 1988 and appeared to firmly believe that in 1992 it was "their turn" to win the OGs. As it turned out, they did win, but the whole concept of waiting your turn has clearly been around for a long time.

That said, the Canadians who won the Ice Dance on Monday were 20 and 22 respectively, so if you're outrageously good (and Robin Cousins compared them to T&D, so they must be pretty handy) you will break up the established order.

As an aside, following Berck's link and having read a lot of his quotes in the media, Pluschenko comes over as a "classless" egomaniac and is doing himself no favours, except maybe as a challenger in the "Biggest t*sser in sport" competition. If he'd been American, I'm sure you'd have been flaying him alive for his conduct.
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
On the subject of being a whiny bitch can someone tell Vonn and her husband to shut the fuck up. The whole 'they set the course against me' has to be the biggest load of bullshit since all that whining about her shin. Always got an excuse.


Does that mean everyone here who complained that the TDF course last year unduly favoured Armstrong is a whining bitch (or male equivalent) who should shut the f*ck up?

I'm guessing not somehow, but the explanation will doubtless be interesting!
bianchigirl

SR, I've passed no comments on Pluschenko's behaviour as he's not particularly my favourite skater - my gripe is simply that pushing the boundaries of the sport should be rewarded not, apparently, punished. Kim leads Asada althought the latter executed a fantastic triple axel - the judges will, as ever, get the champion they want - usually the one with the most earning power and Kim is worth about $8 million to Asada's $4.

All that mimsy floating with the odd twizzle around from the Canucks left me cold, as do the frenetic gurnings of the American and Russian teams - it's all tricks and no edges. Compare to the French and Italian teams who are all about the edges - not flash just quietly difficult and creating a sublime mood, much as T&D once did.

And sure it's been around forever but you make that choice don't you? Bit like watching pro cycling - you know the fix is in on doping but still it gets to you.
SlowRower

bianchigirl wrote:
...my gripe is simply that pushing the boundaries of the sport should be rewarded not, apparently, punished.


From what I've read, what cost Pluschenko was lack of polish on the non-quad part of his routine. Can't comment objectively on this myself, but if this is true then you would be arguing that a particular move could be like a "joker" and trump everything else. e.g. a properly executed quad in amongst 5 minutes of dross would beat 5 minutes of sublimely perfect triples.

Ultimately, it's a point scoring exercise and points lost are just as important as points gained.

I should add that I've boycotted watching figure skating since T&D got stitched up in 1994 and I fully agree with your views that the judges get the result they want. I'm not sure that the men's event necessarily was a stitch up, though.

bianchigirl wrote:
...just quietly difficult and creating a sublime mood, much as T&D once did.


And still do - have you seen them on Dancing on Ice? Smile

bianchigirl wrote:
Bit like watching pro cycling - you know the fix is in on doping but still it gets to you.


I assume that is the collective "you". As is well documented, doping fixes in cycling do not get to me personally!
Mrs John Murphy

Wow, you've managed to shoehorn Armstrong into the Winter Olympics, is their no limit to your fanboyism?

No one is disputing that the course was almost certainly designed  to favour certain types of skiers, just like parcours are designed to appeal to certain riders. If she was as shit hot as her fanboys claim she is then she should have been able to beat everyone out of sight - like Dertie did to your boy Lance last summer. As it is, Vonn always has a fucking excuse, 'my shin hurts', 'they set the course against me'... which is just whining.
Superbagneres

bianchigirl wrote:
SR, I've passed no comments on Pluschenko's behaviour as he's not particularly my favourite skater


You only comment on the behaviour of your favourite sports competitors on this forum?

Shocked Wink
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
...is there no limit to your fanboyism?


Apparently not!

I agree with your comments about Vonn TBH. She's all smiley smiley when she's winning, but clearly doesn't like losing. After the combined, she skied down past the celebrating medalists, exchanged a few pleasantries with her mate Maria Reisch and blanked the other two medalists. Given that Paerson had nearly killed herself the previous day, one would have thought some gesture of acknowledgement would have been appropriate.

I was simply wondering whether all people who complain about a course adversely impacting on a result from their perspective (be it Vonn moaning about her own result or you (and a few more) moaning about Armstrong finishing 3rd last year) should be classed as whiners who should shut the f*ck up.
Mrs John Murphy

My point about telling Vonn to shut the fuck up, is that this is exactly what the US media has been telling Pluschenko, the Swiss Ice Hockey player who was the victim of a cheap shot, the Danish curling who complained about crowd noise, to do. But not telling Vonn to do - exactly the double standards you highlight.

Unfortunately because I didn't flag it up as tongue in cheek you took it at face value...

It's your right to whine and my right to call you a whiner and vice versa.

All athletes and fans complain when things don't go their way - some like Frodo burst into tears and start hitting people, Millar throws his bike around, Armstrong and Landis fans claim a French conspiracy, Dertie fans claim an Armstrong conspiracy.
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
My point about telling Vonn to shut the fuck up, is that this is exactly what the US media has been telling Pluschenko, the Swiss Ice Hockey player who was the victim of a cheap shot, the Danish curling who complained about crowd noise, to do. But not telling Vonn to do - exactly the double standards you highlight.

Unfortunately because I didn't flag it up as tongue in cheek you took it at face value...


I think a reference to actually commenting on the US media rather than Mrs Vonn would have helped.

It was the fact that you called her a whiny bitch that made me think you were commenting on her!

Agree in general, though. Can't be doing with double standards or complaining when you don't get your own way.
Fontfroide

bianchigirl wrote:
Looking at Contador's decisive attack at Algarve, and LeMevel's race winning move at Haute Var I would have to disagree.
.


Surprised at your comment.  I thought it was pretty obvious (certainly on this forum) that, with exceptions which delight us all, nearly all the seriously important races are dominated by conservative, holding back, riding for victory by saving it for the last few k and other rather conservative tactics.  But if you think that serious races are typified by bold attacks, creative management, sparkling riding then maybe we just have to disagree.  

I do agree that individuals do attack sometimes, including Contador, who even attacks in important races.  Even Evans attacks sometimes.  But surely overall we do get a touch bored with following wheels and defending third place rather than taking a chance and maybe falling to fifth.  Anyone remember Ventoux?
SAP

billgull wrote:
Dutch speedskater Sven Kramer gives NBC an interview Very Happy


Link


That was a colossal screwup in the 10,000m race.  Some serious temper shown there too.
smarauder68

Canada's women go 1st and 3rd in women's Bobsled thru 3 runs....pretty impressive gaps over the Germans who won the last 2 Olympics. Home advantage or did the Canadians get better engineering?

I'm really tired of the Curling...I think it was cute in 98 and 02 in small doses, but why does Eurosport show us hours of it???
smarauder68

Meanwhile, Canada 6, Russia 1 in Men's Hockey in hte 2nd period!

No medal for the Russians in Hockey.

I'd like to see Canada put a 10 spot on them...little payback for the Coldwar era....lol
bianchigirl

FF, surely you're not implying that racing begins and ends with the Tour?? Wink Seriously, though, in the bigger picture, riders know they need to attack and to win with panache to pick up a contract? That defensive riding - whilst effective in one race - has not proved effective in the Classics and the shorter Tours?

SR the scoring system is such that you can fall on your arse and score better for a jump than someone who lands it but who had an easier entry to the jump/didn't quite rotate/didn't look as pretty/etc etc etc. BTW Protopopovs were pairs skaters who introduced the death spiral Wink
SlowRower

BG,

Is your grouse that the rules are "wrong" as in they don't reflect your views about how skating should be scored or are you suggesting that the judges are inconsistent in applying them?

i.e. if the rules state you get more for looking pretty than landing jumps properly then that's a rules issue rather than a judging issue.

As to the Protopopovs...

I know my Pairs from my Ice Dancing, I'll have you know. Klimova and Ponamarenko were a pair of skaters who did Ice Dance, rather than the Pairs".

However, I'll bet you didn't know that the couple / pair / Pair credited with first doing the Death Spiral is Suzanne Morrow and Wallace Diestelmeyer of Canada in the 1948 Games.

Comrade and Mrs Comrade Protopopov's trade-mark move was the "back outside" variant.

The Protopopovs actually skated as Belousova and Protopopov.

Sorry - I've been reviewing legal documents all morning and am in "stickler for detail" mode...Smile
bianchigirl

Thank you, that's my 'new fact for the day' box ticked quite nicely Wink Rest assured I won't be going through any of your posts with the pedants fine tooth comb...

The application of the rules is my gripe of course - rather as the organisers of the ToC continually move the goalposts to give Bottle the win, the ISU encourage the application of the rules to get the winners they want - Johnny Weir is continually marked down for all the things - transitions, artistry, spins - for which Lysacek is now (god help us) the ISU poster boy. Is this related to Weir's talent or the fact that  Johnny makes no secret of the fact that he loves make up and looking pretty?
bianchigirl

And what do we all think about the clear 'sympathy vote' that got Rochette the bronze? The ES commentators basically said, after Nagasu's flawless skate, that she deserved the bronze but she'd have her time and this time was Rochette's.

Whilst I have every sympathy for someone losing their mother in the glare of the spotlight, what does that have to do with sporting achievement? A great 'human interest' story but does that mean someone automatically deserves a medal? Had she been a skier and been pipped at the line that would have been cut and dried but to undermark a routine to give someone a 'well done for skating under difficult circumstances and by the time the next games rolls around you'll be too old anyway' medal isn't really what the pursuit of sporting excellence is about, is it?
SlowRower

bianchigirl wrote:
Had she been a skier and been pipped at the line that would have been cut and dried but to undermark a routine to give someone a 'well done for skating under difficult circumstances and by the time the next games rolls around you'll be too old anyway' medal isn't really what the pursuit of sporting excellence is about, is it?


Indeed not!

Did you see the BBC2 preview of the event last evening? There was an interview with Kim's coach (Brian Orser) and an all too brief review of the "Battle of the Brians" in 1988. Now that was a competition and a half. Smile
bianchigirl

I remember it well, I loved the concept of Boitano's routine and he had the firepower too - 2 triple axels to Orser's one.

I thought Kim a very deserved winner - she really is the total package and I hope she decides to push herself with the triple axle. But Nagasu will challenge soon as she also has the double axle-triple toe combo and is 3 years younger. Very impressed by her skating. Just glad to see some women with a bit of attack - love skating to look beautiful but, for me, it's important to always remember that it's supposed to be an athletic competition not just show biz (though of course as an ex-luvvy I do love the show Wink)
SlowRower

BG,

I wonder what raw athleticism you need to do the big jumps. It looks so effortless on TV but even the "unathletic" skaters must be pretty athletic on the grand scale of things.

Now as it's Friday, here's another trivia point...

The "Axel" is named after the first name of its inventor (Axel Paulsen) whereas the "Salchow" is named after the surname of its inventor (Ullrich Salchow). Where's the consistency in that? Smile
berck

SlowRower wrote:

The "Axel" is named after the first name of its inventor (Axel Paulsen) whereas the "Salchow" is named after the surname of its inventor (Ullrich Salchow). Where's the consistency in that? Smile


And here I thought it was named after Axel Rose. Wink

And the Lutz was named after Alois Lutz. I was just reading about this the other day. source
Mrs John Murphy

Axel, Salchow and Lutz sound slightly better than Paulsen, Ullrich and Alois. A triple Ullrich into a Paulsen doesn't quite have the same ring.
smarauder68

Did the judges in the Women's Figure Skating gift the Bronze medal to the Canadian grieving her mother's passing?

According to the Eurosport commentators, the American who finished 4th was the 2nd most impressive skater in the long program and got shafted.

I'd never claim to know much about scoring in figure skating, but 2 neutral observers from Eurosport insinuated that the Canadian was gifted the bronze....it did make a nice story!
SlowRower

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
triple Ullrich into a Paulsen doesn't quite have the same ring.


Whereas a triple Ullrich into a triple Smirnov would sound all too plausible. It's a shame those Russians got into skating when all the best moves had been invented. Smile
berck

smarauder68 wrote:
Did the judges in the Women's Figure Skating gift the Bronze medal to the Canadian grieving her mother's passing?


Don't know. BG said the same thing today. On Yahoo! they made no mention of it except that Rochette delivered a near perfect performance. source

Over the years, skating and diving have seem to me to be the two judged sports where a track history seems to help them score better.
bianchigirl

Marauder, Nagasu quite clearly skated one of the best routines of the night - she and Kim and Asada have a quality that I'm afraid Rochette lacks. Nice story and all that but, like I say, had she been in a straight race and been pipped at the line it would have been considerably more honest that Nagasu having to miss out because it wasn't her time to win - what cobblers that is! Nagasu also had a blinding short programme but, because she was drawn early on, didn't get the marks she deserved. Rochette, for me, was grossly overmarked, particularly in the long - she was marked 1 point behind Asada who, granted, fluffed a triple but had brilliantly landed 2 triple axels and had superb spins whilst Rochette stepped out of one of her triples, fluffed a double axel (needless to say she doesn't have a triple axel) and has poor spins.

What really bothers me is this somewhat Victorian stereotype of the 'grieving woman' and all these words like 'courage' and 'bravery' because she got on the ice and did what she was there to do. As if grief must somehow destroy women - it's the same attitude that says women can't ski jump. Why wouldn't she be able to skate?Her mother was her inspiration and support through the years, why wouldn't she want to get out there and do well for her? To make her proud one last time? It's this special consideration as if she might swoon away that makes me heave - we live in the 21st century, women aren't delicate little flowers anymore.
SlowRower

BG,

Us men have to accept that women are far better at map-reading and programming digi-boxes. Not being allowed to ski-jump seems like a small price to pay for this acknowledgement of superiority in my book.
cardinal guzman

SlowRower wrote:
BG,

Us men have to accept that women are far better at map-reading and programming digi-boxes. Not being allowed to ski-jump seems like a small price to pay for this acknowledgement of superiority in my book.


Women are much worse at map reading than men, but they are much better at asking for directions when the map reading has failed.
cadence

bianchigirl wrote:
Marauder, Nagasu quite clearly skated one of the best routines of the night - she and Kim and Asada have a quality that I'm afraid Rochette lacks. Nice story and all that but, like I say, had she been in a straight race and been pipped at the line it would have been considerably more honest that Nagasu having to miss out because it wasn't her time to win - what cobblers that is! Nagasu also had a blinding short programme but, because she was drawn early on, didn't get the marks she deserved. Rochette, for me, was grossly overmarked, particularly in the long - she was marked 1 point behind Asada who, granted, fluffed a triple but had brilliantly landed 2 triple axels and had superb spins whilst Rochette stepped out of one of her triples, fluffed a double axel (needless to say she doesn't have a triple axel) and has poor spins.

What really bothers me is this somewhat Victorian stereotype of the 'grieving woman' and all these words like 'courage' and 'bravery' because she got on the ice and did what she was there to do. As if grief must somehow destroy women - it's the same attitude that says women can't ski jump. Why wouldn't she be able to skate?Her mother was her inspiration and support through the years, why wouldn't she want to get out there and do well for her? To make her proud one last time? It's this special consideration as if she might swoon away that makes me heave - we live in the 21st century, women aren't delicate little flowers anymore.


BG, I believe this is the first time I've ever agreed with anything you've posted, be back later, I'm going to buy a lottery ticket.
TNG

cardinal guzman wrote:
SlowRower wrote:
BG,

Us men have to accept that women are far better at map-reading and programming digi-boxes. Not being allowed to ski-jump seems like a small price to pay for this acknowledgement of superiority in my book.


Women are much worse at map reading than men, but they are much better at asking for directions when the map reading has failed.


+1 CG!
smarauder68

bianchigirl wrote:
Marauder, Nagasu quite clearly skated one of the best routines of the night - she and Kim and Asada have a quality that I'm afraid Rochette lacks. Nice story and all that but, like I say, had she been in a straight race and been pipped at the line it would have been considerably more honest that Nagasu having to miss out because it wasn't her time to win - what cobblers that is! Nagasu also had a blinding short programme but, because she was drawn early on, didn't get the marks she deserved. Rochette, for me, was grossly overmarked, particularly in the long - she was marked 1 point behind Asada who, granted, fluffed a triple but had brilliantly landed 2 triple axels and had superb spins whilst Rochette stepped out of one of her triples, fluffed a double axel (needless to say she doesn't have a triple axel) and has poor spins.

What really bothers me is this somewhat Victorian stereotype of the 'grieving woman' and all these words like 'courage' and 'bravery' because she got on the ice and did what she was there to do. As if grief must somehow destroy women - it's the same attitude that says women can't ski jump. Why wouldn't she be able to skate?Her mother was her inspiration and support through the years, why wouldn't she want to get out there and do well for her? To make her proud one last time? It's this special consideration as if she might swoon away that makes me heave - we live in the 21st century, women aren't delicate little flowers anymore.


Sounds to me like the fix was in and why not....the 4th place girl is only 16 and will have a chance again in 2014...that must have been the rational of the judges.

As for women playing sports, whats left to conquer???  I'm looking forward to an American Football League for Women....Can you imagine that happening in our lifetime?
bianchigirl

cadence, am sure we actually agree on far more really Wink

Rochette got a medal because she had the sob story. I bet there are many other stories at these games that haven't been as well publicised and athletes as deserving of 'sympathy' medals who haven't won them because their event wasn't subjective. To say that Nagasu shouldn't get a medal this time because she's young and it's not her time is to say that the judging is not objective and, in a sporting event, that simply shouldn't be.
Bartali

smarauder68 wrote:
As for women playing sports, whats left to conquer??

How about competing on a level playing field with the men?  I think its demeaning that women are treated differently .... like kids or disabled people.  They rightly compete with men - and succeed in the workplace - time for women to compete with the men at sport.
smarauder68

bianchigirl wrote:
cadence, am sure we actually agree on far more really Wink

Rochette got a medal because she had the sob story. I bet there are many other stories at these games that haven't been as well publicised and athletes as deserving of 'sympathy' medals who haven't won them because their event wasn't subjective. To say that Nagasu shouldn't get a medal this time because she's young and it's not her time is to say that the judging is not objective and, in a sporting event, that simply shouldn't be.


I'm afraid the temptation to create a feel good moment was too much for the shady powers in the Ice Skating Federation....I still think it was a similar, shadowy consenses that decided to teach Pluschenko a lesson for talking shit to a fellow competitor....If Pluschenko keeps his trap shut, he wins gold.
bianchigirl

I'd love to see the male and female skaters compete together - after all, with all of them capable of hitting triples and the quad for men apparently not a factor, what really separates them?

No reason why in individual sports that couldn't happen - you could still separate out male and female winners but the competition might just spur them all on
smarauder68

Hockey Semi #1: USA 6, Finland 0 at the first intermission....My god!  Where did that offense come from?

My Canada over the USA in the Gold prediction is looking good now, unless you believe in minor miracles....lol
SAP

Canada had a real challenge with Slovakia tonight.  I am going to change my pick & take the USA in the men's hockey final.

Rochette was gifted the bronze medal.  I thought it was just me until I read BG's comments here.  I agree, the 4th place skater was much better and I don't know jack about figure skating.  Except that you are made to 'wait your turn' by the subjective judging. As far as Rochette's continuing in the competition after her mom's death, what else would you do at that level except skate on?
Geraint

Too bad they didnt give Jeret Peterson a gold medal in the aerials. His story is more interesting than Joannie's. I cant see US defeating Canada in hockey. They have an experimental team of young players picked for their speed. Canada is a team of all-stars with the second best player in the world, and the best goalie in history sitting on the bench. The Americans wont take them by surprise this time so Canada has to win eh.
SAP

The Canadian men's hockey team is the NY Yankees of these Olympics---the best team money can buy.  They have the highest paid NHL players (as a group) and have devoted big bucks to winning this gold.  It would be a 'minor miracle on ice' for the US to beat them twice, but I am taking the underdog USA team Wink
Mrs John Murphy

In some ways the US team has been very overlooked in the hockey but the way the draw has come out with Russia playing Canada etc, they've done well. I can see them winning. They have a better chemistry than the Canadian teams.
Mrs John Murphy

Can someone sew Claire Balding's lips together and send her to a desert island so we might never have to listen to her ever again.

I wouldn't mind if she made at least a half arsed effort to brief herself about the sports she is supposed to cover and tried to not treat every non-horse as someone to be patronised.

If ever there was an advertisment for socialism and the shooting of the upper classes, claire balding is it.
Slapshot 3

smarauder68 wrote:
Hockey Semi #1: USA 6, Finland 0 at the first intermission....My god!  Where did that offense come from?

My Canada over the USA in the Gold prediction is looking good now, unless you believe in minor miracles....lol


Wrong argument....where was the defence????? Rolling Eyes
cardinal guzman

Balding is the arse to the pantomime horse that is Steve Cram.

Acumen is worthless. Commentating for the BBC is like being the prime minister of Britain or the president of USA. Any brain-dead arsehole can do it - if they went to the right school.
SlowRower

bianchigirl wrote:
I'd love to see the male and female skaters compete together - after all, with all of them capable of hitting triples and the quad for men apparently not a factor, what really separates them?


There was a fair bit of comment on Kim in the papers this weekend. Her overall score would have placed her 9th in the men's competition, and with an extra 30s available to the men, she would have had the scope to finish higher.

Kim, though, was miles ahead of the rest of the women, and appears to be widely acknowledged as one of the best women ever. The current top guys aren't the best, at least on current form.

So maybe Kim could currently mix it with the guys, but ordinarily, the women would not be challenging. (Ordinarily the women would be worse than Kim and the men better than Lysecek.) This assumes, of course, that the men and women are scored the same. (i.e. a perfect triple Ullrich gets the same score irrespective of who executes it.)

On a general point of women competing against men, it would have its novelty value initially, but I'm sure the spectacle of all the top women sprinters going out in the first round of the Olympic 100m would soon fade. Even Flo Jo in her steroid inpsired prime wouldn't have made it past the first round, assuming of course she'd been able to qualify for the team in "open" competition in the first place.

I guess where men and women can sensibly compete against each other in major sports  they already do e.g. 3 day eventing.
Ralphnorman

Petter Northug men's 50km Classic gold medalist. Great finish, good push by Teichmann but Northug just has an amazing turn of speed. Unfortunate for Cologna, crashing in the last 200m whilst challenging for the bronze.
cardinal guzman

I'm watching the ice hockey and have just realised It's just like watching 2 teams pretending to play hockey. I know where the puck is - I just can't see it.

Canada are quite physical.
Ralphnorman

Canada's passing has been less than great. Many times even whilst in their own zone with no pressure the passes have been going to skates.
SAP

Overtime!  And sudden death at that.  I'm still taking the USA!
SAP

Shoot!
At least the USA was getting in some good shots on goal (kinda).
Slapshot 3

What a fantastic game to finish the Olympics and they managed to set it all up for the New King of Canada to score in OT. As a game it was unsurpassed in the rest of the tournament and as a spectacle only the young snowboarder chappie came close to generating that kind of atmosphere.

As a coach, technically it was awful, passing was horiffic, forecheck was patchy and defensivley both teams were decidedly average. Miller was the star of the game Luongo didn't have a huge amount of pressure stuff to deal with. The US's trap didn't seem to work and at times I wondered if Canada wanted to generate offence, split passes to high post forwards half of the time dump and change the other with no forechecking forward.

Still think Russia looked the best until they didn't bother to show up against the Canucks. US did their jobs without attracting the due attention to themselves but came up a little short. Pat Kane impressed me as did young Mr Teows, Pronger needs to hang up his skates and Dany Heatley again failed to show up for the big game.

       justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge Page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum