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HuwB

Giro 2015: I Secondi Piatti Stages:- May 19th - May 23rd

This will be my last lot. Off to Tenerife, very early Friday morning.
Self imposed internet blackout for two weeks.
So, Kathy's profiles and bits and pieces as and when. Not much in this main course in any case.


Stage 10:
Map:-


Profile:-


Finishing run in:-


Stage 11:
Map:-


Profile:-


Climbs:-



Finishing circuit:-



Stage 12:
Map:-


Profile:-


Climbs:




Final Kms:



Stage 13:
Map:-


Profile:


Run in:


Stage 14
Map:


Profile:
[img][/img]

Climbs:



Final Kms:
Mrs John Murphy

Say hi to Dr Ferrari Smile
HuwB

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
Say hi to Dr Ferrari Smile


Nibali has been phoning home.
Currently can't move on Tiede for TDF cyclists hard at it.

Pelucchi  quits.
That sort of a day.
HuwB

No sprint finish and Porte loses around 45 seconds.
3 week racing, eh?
Fontfroide

My underlying joy that the escape did it is modified by the points I lost on the winner of the big bunch sprint.

How can all those teams make such a cockup?  Its not like Tony Martin and Fabian were in the escape!  I suppose this reflects a bit on the overall level of sprinters in the race.  Bunch of teams with someone who might win, might not.  So I guess they don't want to work enough with the likelihood of no reward.  Not much faith in the their lads.  Lotto rides like blazes, and no reward.

And Porte losing 45 seconds!  Another surprise.  Guess I don't like surprises all the time.
Mrs John Murphy

How did Porte manage that? I skipped today on account of the profile and a large pile of essays that need marking.
HuwB

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
How did Porte manage that? I skipped today on account of the profile and a large pile of essays that need marking.


Cameras only caught Sky riders dropping back.
Mechanical apparently.
Chasing back he looked like he still had it. Laughing
mazda

1 Nicola Boem (Ita) Bardiani CSF 4:26:16
2 Matteo Busato (Ita) Southeast Pro Cycling
3 Alessandro Malaguti (Ita) Nippo - Vini Fantini 0:00:02
4 Alan Marangoni (Ita) Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling Team 0:00:04
5 Giacomo Nizzolo (Ita) Trek Factory Racing 0:00:18
6 Sacha Modolo (Ita) Lampre-Merida

Porte @ 45 seconds.
Mechanical at 4km to go.
mazda

Fontfroide wrote:
My underlying joy that the escape did it is modified by the points I lost on the winner of the big bunch sprint.

Yeah, we'll get about 15 each !
Still, better than nothing.
Fontfroide

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
How did Porte manage that? I skipped today on account of the profile and a large pile of essays that need marking.


Well, there you go, that's cycling, full of surprises.  I almost missed it myself.  I thought I could replay the last ten k later today and get all the action I needed.   Wink

No idea what "the mechanical" was.  I guess this was one of the marginal losses that Sky does not speak of all that much.
gerry12ie

Fontfroide wrote:
Mrs John Murphy wrote:
How did Porte manage that? I skipped today on account of the profile and a large pile of essays that need marking.


Well, there you go, that's cycling, full of surprises.  I almost missed it myself.  I thought I could replay the last ten k later today and get all the action I needed.   Wink

No idea what "the mechanical" was.  I guess this was one of the marginal losses that Sky does not speak of all that much.


And that, sir, is comic gold! Wink
HuwB

gerry12ie wrote:
Fontfroide wrote:
Mrs John Murphy wrote:
How did Porte manage that? I skipped today on account of the profile and a large pile of essays that need marking.


Well, there you go, that's cycling, full of surprises.  I almost missed it myself.  I thought I could replay the last ten k later today and get all the action I needed.   Wink

No idea what "the mechanical" was.  I guess this was one of the marginal losses that Sky does not speak of all that much.


And that, sir, is comic gold! Wink


And here it is in photos:





Shocked
Fontfroide

So Simon Clarke is giving him a wheel (or putting on his wheel) instead of the staff of Sky?  And minutes later there was an Orica rider my commentator identified as Matthews, who was tagging along and even helping the Sky riders fail to get Richie back.

Kind of cool really.  Australians will help out Australians no matter what team?  In the full glare of TV.  And of course why not, although somehow you would not expect any random Italian rider to help Fabio Aru if he came undone like that.  Or would you?  Regional loyalties not yet overcome by pan-european or corporate loyalties?
HuwB

Not really, if Katusha have their say:
https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/600705404256055296

Game over, potentially.
Mrs John Murphy

HuwB wrote:
Not really, if Katusha have their say:
https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/600705404256055296

Game over, potentially.


And we know that it won't be enforced
HuwB

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Not really, if Katusha have their say:
https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/600705404256055296

Game over, potentially.


And we know that it won't be enforced


Errr, it just has been.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/g...piu-47-ritardo-110895104733.shtml

Now 3'09" down and out.
So, now its down to Bertie versus the Astana trio who sit in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
Mrs John Murphy

Interesting, no doubt the Skybots will be complaining (as they were on twitter) about Dertie removing his helmet
gerry12ie

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Not really, if Katusha have their say:
https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/600705404256055296

Game over, potentially.


And we know that it won't be enforced


No, but some poor sucker that doesn't count will get timed out - remember the Giro Merde episode with Kenny Dehaes last year?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/d...me-cut-at-giro-ditalia-time-trial

Why wasn't some Sky rider small enough to be on Minding Richie duty actually on proper Minding Richie duty and give him his bike?

Rules can be enforced though, the leader of the Rás, Francesco Reda, was DQ'd yesterday for taking a prolonged tow after a puncture, and his manager was sent home today for protesting too much.  Same Reda that took a two-year doping ban - stay off the radar son...

http://www.stickybottle.com/lates...out-on-yellow-jersey-controversy/
HuwB



Hope Sky have the good sense to have him throttle back, perhaps even pull out and save it for the Tour. No point in turning himself inside out going for stage wins when they already have one.
What's done is done
Mrs John Murphy

gerry12ie wrote:
Mrs John Murphy wrote:
HuwB wrote:
Not really, if Katusha have their say:
https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/600705404256055296

Game over, potentially.


And we know that it won't be enforced


No, but some poor sucker that doesn't count will get timed out - remember the Giro Merde episode with Kenny Dehaes last year?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/d...me-cut-at-giro-ditalia-time-trial

Why wasn't some Sky rider small enough to be on Minding Richie duty actually on proper Minding Richie duty and give him his bike?

Rules can be enforced though, the leader of the Rás, Francesco Reda, was DQ'd yesterday for taking a prolonged tow after a puncture, and his manager was sent home today for protesting too much.  Same Reda that took a two-year doping ban - stay off the radar son...

http://www.stickybottle.com/lates...out-on-yellow-jersey-controversy/


But when Frodo needs a tow...
Biosphere

That is a fucked up application of rules. Official Giro Twitter account promotes the wheel swap as a beautiful sporting gesture and then Vegni goes on about credibility after last years Stelvio farce Rolling Eyes



As for no right of appeal, I imagine the phones are ringing off the hook in Aigle tonight

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/g...a-richie-porte-docked-two-minutes
gerry12ie

That picture says a lot about how messed up it is.  Generally, whatever the sport, I'm in favour of a strict application of the rules (with a common sense proviso) but its the randomness in cycling that bugs everyone.  Still, rules are actually rules and its fair to ask if Clarke would have offered a wheel to Aru or Contador but I guess we know the answer to that...
Boogerd_Fan

Porte to OGE next year?
Slapshot 3

Maybe the Skyborg indoctrination doesn't teach them how to swap wheels... karma for the late feeds, trammy bottles late in stages, the steroids for froome last year at romandie... etc etc etc ... no sympathy
Bartali

I'm with Gerry on this.  It was a nice gesture and at first sight its hard to think its outside the spirit of the rules.  But looked at another way, Sky had two extra team members today which clearly isn't fair.  This was not a case of 'tit for tat' this was - perhaps unfortunately - giving Porte an unfair advantage.

I'm afraid people get punctures all the time, but I've never seen the like of this before and as Gerry said, its unlikely that OGE wouldn't have done it for Aru or Bertie.
maffy

ex-leaky oss gave sagan a pretty good leadout for the intermediate sprint in the last stage of the other grand tour the other night. why's it not on tonight?
HuwB

Sky already did just this for Etix, (Meersman) earlier in the Giro.  Again twitter provides the evidence, just no photo that time.
https://twitter.com/GianniMeersman/status/597829780256460800
So it's rule that can only be observed selectively.


Savoldelli bought Lotto and Rabo and thus the Giro in 2005.
Where were the UCI a this rule, then?
Mrs John Murphy

Bartali wrote:
I'm with Gerry on this.  It was a nice gesture and at first sight its hard to think its outside the spirit of the rules.  But looked at another way, Sky had two extra team members today which clearly isn't fair.  This was not a case of 'tit for tat' this was - perhaps unfortunately - giving Porte an unfair advantage.

I'm afraid people get punctures all the time, but I've never seen the like of this before and as Gerry said, its unlikely that OGE wouldn't have done it for Aru or Bertie.


The thing is we can't know how much time Clarke giving him the wheel saved Porte, so 2 mins can seem like a very harsh penalty. But at the same time we've seen so many rule violations not punished - it is a shock when one is enforced.

Given that the secret pro is an aussie who hates Aru I am sure OGE won't be doing it for Aru Smile
Bartali

I hear you Huw and we should have consistency.  Not sure of the circumstances earlier in the race, but I guess the overall importance on the stage, GC etc perhaps needs to be factored in.

But ultimately you can see why the rule is there ... we can't have a whole bunch of 9 man teams and one or two 18 man teams.  

Looking at it another way, why was Porte losing time because he was isolated from his team and support car any different from Valverde shipping all that time in the Tour?  Its difficult, because at first sight it looks like great sportsmanship and I'm sure it was carried out in that spirit.  But ....
Bartali

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
The thing is we can't know how much time Clarke giving him the wheel saved Porte, so 2 mins can seem like a very harsh penalty. But at the same time we've seen so many rule violations not punished - it is a shock when one is enforced.
 Indeed, even with a 2 minute penalty he might still be up on what he might have lost.  Who knows.  The whole thing is unfortunate really ....
HuwB

On the subject of rules and the way the UCI go about enforcing them.
From a satirist elsewhere:
Quote:
Good sportsmanship between competitors is all very nice but rules must be obeyed or the sports integrity would be damaged.

We can now look forward to a fair and honest fight between a rider supported by a team that should have been banned last month against a rider supported by a teammate who will be banned next month.
HuwB

Bartali wrote:
Mrs John Murphy wrote:
The thing is we can't know how much time Clarke giving him the wheel saved Porte, so 2 mins can seem like a very harsh penalty. But at the same time we've seen so many rule violations not punished - it is a shock when one is enforced.
 Indeed, even with a 2 minute penalty he might still be up on what he might have lost.  Who knows.  The whole thing is unfortunate really ....




Note the foreground.
The might be slow, but not that slow.
Bartali

Got it ... hadn't seen him.
Biosphere

I think I would accept for it to be put down as a fair application of rules if that was what happened every time.

Like earlier this year when half the peloton were disqualified (as the rules say they should be) for riding across a closed level crossing with a train seconds away . . .  Or when Contador was docked the two minutes in the 2011 Giro for jumping out of the chasing group to catch and then tow a fading Tiralongo (then an ex teammate) to the line for a stage win.

But it's not what happens every time so I will continue to think it's stupid and that it doesn't help cycling's credibility problem.
Mrs John Murphy

Biosphere wrote:
I think I would accept for it to be put down as a fair application of rules if that was what happened every time.

Like earlier this year when half the peloton were disqualified (as the rules say they should be) for riding across a closed level crossing with a train seconds away . . .  Or when Contador was docked the two minutes in the 2011 Giro for jumping out of the chasing group to catch and then tow a fading Tiralongo (then an ex teammate) to the line for a stage win.

But it's not what happens every time so I will continue to think it's stupid and that it doesn't help cycling's credibility problem.


Yep. I would rather that they applied the rules (and got rid of the more stupid ones) than selectively applied rules when it suits them.
gerry12ie

Biosphere wrote:
I think I would accept for it to be put down as a fair application of rules if that was what happened every time.

Like earlier this year when half the peloton were disqualified (as the rules say they should be) for riding across a closed level crossing with a train seconds away . . .  Or when Contador was docked the two minutes in the 2011 Giro for jumping out of the chasing group to catch and then tow a fading Tiralongo (then an ex teammate) to the line for a stage win.

But it's not what happens every time so I will continue to think it's stupid and that it doesn't help cycling's credibility problem.


Bolded.  Is what we hear across all sports week in and out, be it football, rugby, cricket, but ultimately isn't the argument a bit hollow?  The issue is not really that the rules haven't been applied to others in the past, its that they have been applied to me/us/them etc.  Yes, it would be ideal that Stelvio was handled properly, that Cavendish and the large grupetto were timed out at the TDF a couple of years ago, that PR should have had riders stopped from racing, but two or three wrongs shouldn't mean that the rules shouldn't still be applied.  The statutes are what they are after all.

Sky aren't reknowned for their Plan B, so maybe they will just fold.  Alternatively, it might be the making of a race if they decide to come out punching.  Really though, if Sky had riders there to give a wheel and instead relied on assistance from others to save those riders for a chase, then its a blatant cheat - regardless of what has or hasn't been imposed on others in the past.  If this happened to FDJ or Bardiani we wouldn't even be discussing it...
mazda

gerry12ie wrote:
 If this happened to FDJ or Bardiani we wouldn't even be discussing it...
Yes, but not because nobody cares, more that there is a little nagging feeling that the powers that be wouldn't have bothered to penalise them and there would still be a feelgood factor about a generous sporting act.
gerry12ie

mazda wrote:
gerry12ie wrote:
 If this happened to FDJ or Bardiani we wouldn't even be discussing it...
Yes, but not because nobody cares, more that there is a little nagging feeling that the powers that be wouldn't have bothered to penalise them and there would still be a feelgood factor about a generous sporting act.


Agreed, but a generous sporting act that was entirely selective and based on national allegiances, so maybe not quite as altruistic as some might think.  I can understand Porte might have been spooked and panicked by the puncture , but he seemed unable to hold the wheel in the chase back. Can he really be that fragile?
Biosphere

gerry12ie wrote:
Biosphere wrote:
I think I would accept for it to be put down as a fair application of rules if that was what happened every time.

Like earlier this year when half the peloton were disqualified (as the rules say they should be) for riding across a closed level crossing with a train seconds away . . .  Or when Contador was docked the two minutes in the 2011 Giro for jumping out of the chasing group to catch and then tow a fading Tiralongo (then an ex teammate) to the line for a stage win.

But it's not what happens every time so I will continue to think it's stupid and that it doesn't help cycling's credibility problem.


Bolded.  Is what we hear across all sports week in and out, be it football, rugby, cricket, but ultimately isn't the argument a bit hollow?  The issue is not really that the rules haven't been applied to others in the past, its that they have been applied to me/us/them etc.  Yes, it would be ideal that Stelvio was handled properly, that Cavendish and the large grupetto were timed out at the TDF a couple of years ago, that PR should have had riders stopped from racing, but two or three wrongs shouldn't mean that the rules shouldn't still be applied.  The statutes are what they are after all.

Sky aren't reknowned for their Plan B, so maybe they will just fold.  Alternatively, it might be the making of a race if they decide to come out punching.  Really though, if Sky had riders there to give a wheel and instead relied on assistance from others to save those riders for a chase, then its a blatant cheat - regardless of what has or hasn't been imposed on others in the past.  If this happened to FDJ or Bardiani we wouldn't even be discussing it...


Well when Ted King got timed out of the Tour for a questionable 7 seconds a couple of years ago I think I posted that it was an unfair decision. It's what I certainly thought. Not sure it got discussed much though.

Yesterday has had a big impact on the race and I think most would agree that the sanction is disproportionate so I think it's a stupid descision. That coupled with the a la carte application of rules means I'm not going to accept that it is fair. The jury had discretion and they failed to use it. Just my opinion. Don't know if my argument is hollow, but I'm arguing from what I think is an assessment of what's right and wrong. I think I would do the same for Aru or Vinokourov.

Cheating implies a deliberate attempt to subvert rules. I think it was more a heat of the moment thing. I could be wrong.

I don't argue that it was an act of sportsmanship. That would have been Tinkoff giving him a wheel.

As for the rules, the English language version of them are not so clear cut. Talk of lending assistance being forbidden rather than receiving it. Lots of fun for a lawyer.
mazda

Biosphere wrote:
As for the rules, the English language version of them are not so clear cut. Talk of lending assistance being forbidden rather than receiving it. Lots of fun for a lawyer.

I did wonder about that.
Given that the assistance could be from an agent who was not part of the race, or was from somebody that any punishment of would be meaningless in the context of the race, then I think that the recipient has to hold some responsibility, especially where they had the opportunity not to accept the assistance.
But then again, Porte may have been aware of Sky offering the assistance in the prior example and may have thought nothing of it.

As for the nationality thing.
Are we really suggesting that Italians in different teams wouldn't readily offer more co-operation to other Italians ?
Plus the whole dynamic of the race relies on hidden, and not so hidden, co-operation between different factions.

I'm off to go look round the cycling news for any more info.
Boogerd_Fan

HuwB wrote:
Bartali wrote:
Mrs John Murphy wrote:
The thing is we can't know how much time Clarke giving him the wheel saved Porte, so 2 mins can seem like a very harsh penalty. But at the same time we've seen so many rule violations not punished - it is a shock when one is enforced.
 Indeed, even with a 2 minute penalty he might still be up on what he might have lost.  Who knows.  The whole thing is unfortunate really ....




Note the foreground.
The might be slow, but not that slow.



Based on this pic, would it have been different, for say.. the SKY rider coming into shot to give his wheel, and then for Clarke to then "help" the chase??
Bartali

The more I think about this the clearer it becomes for me.

Did Porte receive an unfair advantage from the rule infringement?  I think the answer has to be yes.  A quicker wheel change and an extra team member for the chase.  

Is the rule infringement clear cut?  Again, the answer is yes.  Much harder to argue that the other OGE man helped in the chase as he would argue that they were all working together blah blah blah.

Would Clarke have broken the rule for say Aru or Bertie?  We don't know, but I think most would happily accept that he wouldn't.

So rules were broken and Porte received an advantage - so surely there can't be any argument.

[I have to say that I have moved to this position from initially praising Clarke for his sportsmanship.  But in helping Porte he DID alter the shape of the race to the detriment of other riders.]

Boogie - your question is speculative, but it would certainly have been harder to prove an infringement.
gerry12ie

For me, whats important here is that the rules have, for once, been applied to a big team's named rider.  I was well pissed last year at Dehaes getting, what I thought, was a raw deal after the race leader and favourite (from a big team, of course) was allowed ride away from the rest of the race on the Stelvio.

There might even be a bit of 'positive' discrimination being used here - lets make an example of the biggest team with the best equipment who can't even change their own wheels?  Although knowing cycling its probably much more likely to be negative discrimination - how do we help an Italian win in Italy? Wink
mazda

Bartali wrote:
The more I think about this the clearer it becomes for me.

Did Porte receive an unfair advantage from the rule infringement?  I think the answer has to be yes.  A quicker wheel change and an extra team member for the chase.  

Is the rule infringement clear cut?  Again, the answer is yes.  

I agree with some of this.

Not so sure about the "unfair" part though.
He gained an advantage sure enough.
But unfair ? Is that relevant or established ?

And definitely not sure about the extra team member bit.
Matthews is not being penalised. Riding together is not breaking the rules. Whatever the reason for Matthews being there at that point in time- taking it easy for today, or stopping because he was riding behind Porte - I don't think you can mandate whether or not riders are allowed to work with others to chase back on.
mazda

On to today.
Carlos Betancur, Matteo Montaguti (Ag2r La Mondiale), Franco Pellizotti (Androni - Sidermec), Diego Rosa (Astana), Marek Rutkiewicz (CCC Sprandi), Beñat Intxausti, Ruben Fernandez (Movistar), Ryder Hesjedal (Cannondale - Garmin), Ilnur Zakarin (Katusha) and Steven Kruijswijk (LottoNL - Jumbo).

About a 3 min lead.
Hesjedal is @ 6'06" on G.C.
SlowRower

gerry12ie wrote:
Yes, it would be ideal that...Cavendish and the large grupetto were timed out at the TDF a couple of years ago


Wasn't the point with Cav and the time limit that the rules specifically permit discretion to be applied? If I remember things correctly, Berto's attack from the bottom of the first climb meant the stage was so fast that a less generous time limit applied than might have been expected, and pretty much half the field simply got their sums wrong. Whilst non-elimination saved Cav, it did mean that the Champs Elysee sprint showdown wasn't between a load of climbers who can't sprint and Rojas, who would still probably have finished in the bunch.

As a rule (excuse the pun) rules should be applied. If they're not going to be applied then they should be consistently not applied. It's the inconsistency that is the problem. Where discretion is allowed, then as Mr S says, just follow the money.
gerry12ie

I was sooo going to FP Hesjedal, honest.  Clement, pffff Rolling Eyes
mazda

BMC have been driving the peloton along including on some wet descents.
Kung appears to have been the last one on the front and Tinkoff have let him go on the second lap of the circuit (not literally the circuit).
Slapshot 3

What Bart said above....... spot on!!
Fontfroide

gerry12ie wrote:
I was sooo going to FP Hesjedal, honest.  Clement, pffff Rolling Eyes


Can't share your disappointment, but I can share the usual early optimism.  I picked who I wanted to,but was gone all morning and never checked how many also did that.  Would have switched to Feline.  On the other hand, on some team or other, in some game or other, I have got four guys in the break on my teams.  So I might be smiling quietly, until they get caught.

Just tuned in 15 minute sago, and it does look like we should have some good racing now and again from here to the end.
Mrs John Murphy

mazda wrote:


As for the nationality thing.
Are we really suggesting that Italians in different teams wouldn't readily offer more co-operation to other Italians ?


Given how fractious Italian cycling politics is - it would not surprise me if an Italian rider refused to help another Italian rider. (I'd also say the same about Belgian and French riders).
mazda

Zakarin over a minute up with 10km to go.
Uran had a crash but has been dragged back to the peloton.
Not sure, but they may have slowed, or at least not speeded up, in order that he could get back.
HuwB

Zakarin's sensational season continues on it's upwards curve.
Heaven help the rest if he starts doping again. Razz
Fontfroide

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
mazda wrote:


As for the nationality thing.
Are we really suggesting that Italians in different teams wouldn't readily offer more co-operation to other Italians ?


Given how fractious Italian cycling politics is - it would not surprise me if an Italian rider refused to help another Italian rider. (I'd also say the same about Belgian and French riders).


Although I could never in a million years prove it is true, I agree with MJM that there are different levels/strength of national identification among the riders.  I could not give a decent informed view about Italian riders, but I suspect they are fractionated a bit.  And the French too.  Several teams, a few even on foreign teams.   Conflicts.  But what about Americans, usually very patriotic, but doe we think they would help out other Yanks.  And the Spanish, do all of them feel a certain residual pride when Alberto or Alejandro or J-Rod take a victory.  Would the Basques help out the Spaniards?  Don't forget Alberto is totally from Madrid, the Capital.  I suspect the British riders might just help one another in a pinch.  But for sure I would say the Aussies.  With a happy smile on my face.  MAYBE they all like each other, even if they are not all riding for Orica.  In the crunch I think there is some difference between national groups.  Germans?  Slovaks?  Dutch?  Danes?  A little flash of an image of strong national identity overcoming commercial differences?  

In spite of just talking, it is an interesting question.  The real question for me, which I have not had time to research, is where the heck were the Sky Team staff?  He's their top guy and he has to cadge a wheel from another team!  Anyone have any idea what happened, saving me research time?
mazda

I did read that his teammates were simply "on the wrong side of the road".
Far enough away for Clarke to get there first and swap wheels.
It all happened in, say, 20 seconds because Porte was reported at only 30 seconds behind at first.
I have no idea where any of the cars, including the commisars, were.
Nolte

i feel 2 minute penalty for porte was on the steep side. Remember a number of years when for getting energy gels for froome on a mountain in tour de france, the penalty there was 20 seconds where if you hit the wall on a mountain, you'd lose more than 20 seconds and i recall some celebratory comments from brailsford that "yes, that was worth it" for the froome incidient.

Talking about tows up mountains, rojas' favourite subject to give out about cavendish when they went for the green jersey and then ventoso the following year against cavendish in the giro, and rojas kicked off last years tour for it.

To me, the 2 minutes seem harsh but the rules are there, clearly unfortunately and i suppose if there wasn't the photographic evidence of it clearly then they might have overlooked it but it is.

Though i saw on a breakaway on maybe friday, rider receiving bottle from another team car, which would come on the same rule.

I just wish the rules were applied as rigidly as this.
To the riders i don't like :d jk

Though if they were rigidly applied, contador would be dqed for removing his helmet leaving an astana 1 - 2 - 3
Mrs John Murphy

It can also depend on personal relationships, hierarchy in the peloton.

At the moment its ok to call out Aru, but everyone is obsequious when it comes to Porte/Dertie/Wiggins/Vroome.

As others have said there was no help for Piti etc
Mrs John Murphy

HuwB wrote:
Zakarin's sensational season continues on it's upwards curve.
Heaven help the rest if he starts doping again. Razz


This race is a monumental 220 foot bronze and marble statue of a middle finger being raised at the bio-passport
Biosphere

Bartali wrote:
The more I think about this the clearer it becomes for me.

Did Porte receive an unfair advantage from the rule infringement?  I think the answer has to be yes.  A quicker wheel change and an extra team member for the chase.  

Is the rule infringement clear cut?  Again, the answer is yes.  Much harder to argue that the other OGE man helped in the chase as he would argue that they were all working together blah blah blah.

Would Clarke have broken the rule for say Aru or Bertie?  We don't know, but I think most would happily accept that he wouldn't.

So rules were broken and Porte received an advantage - so surely there can't be any argument.

[I have to say that I have moved to this position from initially praising Clarke for his sportsmanship.  But in helping Porte he DID alter the shape of the race to the detriment of other riders.]


I just don't get the unfair advantage argument. He had the bad luck to have a mechanical, he was losing time. The gains made by Contador and Aru yesterday before the penalty were conditional on Porte losing time. It's pretty hard to call that gaining an advantage in my book (and if it's just my book then so be it). The extra man argument is probably misplaced as if a team mate give him a wheel, then Clarke is available to help with the chase. What you would call unfair advantage is I would argue is more accurately called reducing a disadvantage that came about through bad luck (as opposed to not having the legs, not eating enough and so on).

Ultimately Porte being helped by OGE yesterday, did not hinder Contador's or Aru's ability to compete against him. On the contrary, they were ensconced in a peloton going full gas thanks to the collective efforts of dozens of riders from multiple teams (pretty much impossible to ride off the front of) and under no circumstances was a chase by 5 riders from two teams going to gain on them.

I will leave it at that as it's getting old now, but I just wanted to comment on the "unfair advantage".

As for other nationalities helping each other out, I remember a "non-optimal" Contador being paced by Nieve on Ventoux the 2013 Tour.
HuwB

Totally agree with all you say, Bio, including it now being old.
If one considers what took place to be an unfair advantage, then surely the commies pulling the cars out early and thus blocking the road behind the peloton would be an unfair disadvantage, no?


So, anyhow, this year the UCI bring in a new rule on mechanicals being serviced from the car. It's now a no no, against the rules.
What has happened? It has been totally ignored and teams continue to service bikes on the move.
So under their new rule, that everyone knows about, one would imagine that the UCI has been handing out penalties left, right and centre............................

Imaginary, more like.
Boogerd_Fan

Good recollection of Nieve & Contador.. that would be the speculative situation of Clarke taking (long) turns to pull Porte back into the race supporting the chase.
Biosphere

Enjoy the vacation at the magic volcano Huw Wink

Boogie, was refreshing on the 2011 Giro last night and coincidentally the article made mention of Contador "cooperating" with Nieve and Anton in week 2 and them taking a stage a piece and then Euskatel working with Saxo in Week 3, when there had been talk of the Italians teaming up against Contador.

Unrelated, the article also mentioned that Scarponi's post dated Giro 2011 win is still not finalised due to ongoing doping investigations in Italy.
Fontfroide

People keep referring to Clarke helping the Sky riders pull for Alberto.  If Clarke gave Contador his wheel, which happened to be the same brand, how could he have ridden for him seconds later without a wheel?  I think it was Matthews who helped out Sky.

And as far as I can see, whatever the rules may be, all the judges are apparently Italian.  They also got lucky even seeing the event.  Although nearly everyone should now assume that any event will have some person with a smart phone nearby.  Those photos are quite explicit.  But without wishing to be accused of anti-Italian sentiment, we do know, from many examples, that Italian officials do help out their riders when possible.  they might be worse than other countries, maybe not.

I think that basically they were way too harsh.  Porte now can't win the Giro.  They could have fined him or penalised him 30 seconds, which is the time he apparently lost before he got started again.  Two minutes was way to serious for a simple national solidarity, sporting gesture, by a pal.

I still have no idea where the Sky car was, should have been third or so in line, Porte was near the rear of the peloton.  No Sky guy in the break.  Where was the car?  Did they give a wheel to Simon Clarke?

Argument about something being "old" is no good.  People chattered about Contador "attacking" Schleck for several months.  Until some other controversial event or bad break comes along (Giro seems to pack them in), what else to talk about?   Wink
mazda

Another up and down, wet day.
Gerrans has crashed.
Clement has crashed and needs treatment.
And a FDJ rider nearly takes out a dog.

13km to go and Pellizotti has a lead of 20 seconds.
Fontfroide

Makes me glad to be inside my house.  What weather!

Should be a right fine last k.
mazda

Kangert has caught Pellizotti with peloton @15 secs.
mazda

Looks like BMC are going to miss out again.
Arguably they had the firepower to have helped yesterday.
mazda

Although Gilbert might be able to make it up the steep finish.
mazda

Gilbert it is.
Steep enough finish for Contador to grab some bonus seconds ?  Shocked
mr shifter

Fontfroide wrote:
People keep referring to Clarke helping the Sky riders pull   I think it was Matthews who helped out Sky.

From what I saw Live, I thought the Orica rider was getting a free tow without any work.
Nolte

aru seemed to start losing ground earlyish on the hill at veneto. You could see him losing places on the helicopter shot early.

While porte just seems unable to follow attacks of contador and looking at it, he is just seeming to me to be too far back at most times in the last couple of days.
Bartali

This guy is more articulate than me ...http://www.cyclingnews.com/featur...intentioned-but-rightly-penalised

For the avoidance of doubt, I specifically said that the OGE assisting in the chase was too difficult to call.  The advantage is that he had an extra sky man that he wouldn't have had if that rider had donated his wheel.

As for 'unfair advantage' surely it is clear.  Punctures and mechanicals are unfortunate but totally irrelevant unless you are arguing that the race should be neutralised because Porte had a mechanical - and I don't think you are.  The simple point is that without the rule infringement Porte would have lost more than the 47 seconds.  Therefore the rule infringement provided an advantage - that's a fact.  It is unfair because that advantage was both again the rules and not available to other riders that puncture -also indisputable I think.

As I've said, my initial reaction was to applaud the gesture, but on reflection, this was not sportsmanship nor fairPlay.  This was precisely why the rule is there.

Today ... Aru looks ill to me.  He was open mouthed and sore looking eyes from about 35km out as far as I could see. And slipping down the group on at least the penultimate climb.  I think he will ship serious time over the next few days.  Porte just isn't at the level required for a GT rider IMO.  That's not a criticism, just that he doesn't seem to have the resilience required.  All the tools for one week tours though ... especially ones with an ITT.  

Bertie's to lose now ... which is good for him because he'll get his arse kicked in the Tour.
gerry12ie

I agree on all counts there Very Happy

Time trial dependant, I think Sky could have a card to play in Konig who looks a little bit out of it on minding duty for a team mate who is half a minute back.  IIRC Konig was a top ten for Net-App in the TDF TT, when Porte was way down the list (although his race was long over at that stage).  And yes, Aru looks a bit cooked at the moment and certainly not as intimidating as he looked last week.

Say what you want about him (and we often do) but Contador is the consumate GT rider, and even with Astana in such a seemingly strong position, and with only Rogers and RK providing irregular help, its difficult to see him losing this - even with a big test and the high mountains still to come.  If I was betting with Bartali's money I know where I would put it... Wink
gerry12ie

Bartali wrote:


Bertie's to lose now ... which is good for him because he'll get his arse kicked in the Tour.


Are Astana sending the 'A' Team to the Tour?  Laughing
Nolte

gerry12ie wrote:
Bartali wrote:


Bertie's to lose now ... which is good for him because he'll get his arse kicked in the Tour.


Are Astana sending the 'A' Team to the Tour?  Laughing


who'll be the other rider in the tour top 10 then?
mr shifter

Bartali wrote:

As I've said, my initial reaction was to applaud the gesture, but on reflection, this was not sportsmanship nor fairPlay.  

Where is the Race "Patron" ?? there isn't one in this race, so NO sportsmanship.
Memories of Cancelara holding the peloton for the Shleck's
That despised Sportsman Sir Bradley Wiggins holding the peloton for Evans.
There are many others over the years but not this Giro.  bom
Bartali

gerry12ie wrote:

Are Astana sending the 'A' Team to the Tour?  Laughing


LOL  I love it when a plan comes together.

The 'N' Team Smile
Nolte

boem's leading the point classification?
how?

other than by getting more points than others
mazda

Nolte wrote:
boem's leading the point classification?
how?

Not all stages are worth the same number of points.

Boem won the earlier sprinters stage from the breakaway and got 50 points.
edit - he got 74 points in all by winning the intermediates as well.

That may have been the only 50-pointer stage, until today that is.
Nolte

mazda wrote:
Nolte wrote:
boem's leading the point classification?
how?

Not all stages are worth the same number of points.
Boem won the earlier sprinters stage from the breakaway and got 50 points.
It may have been the only 50-pointer stage, until today that is.


cheers Smile
i also did look at the other classement and he's leading in combativity standings too so he's been out in the breaks getting the intermediate sprints i would think
Bartali

I'd like to see Viviani get this one ... and the points jersey back!
Nolte

crash involving a number of astana riders
contador hits ground

possibly outside of 3km
mazda

Nolte wrote:
crash involving a number of astana riders
contador hits ground

possibly outside of 3km

That would be an alternative way of taking non-regulation assistance.
Bartali

That looks Aru in pink to me ....
mazda

Ah, but will they decide it was inside or outside 3km ?
Bartali

Not sure why they keep questioning whether it was outside 3km .... it clearly was
mazda

Kreuziger a beneficiary.
Konig not top 10 any more.

Oh, Modolo won btw.
Nizzolo and Viviani next.
Bartali

Sounded like Porte's spirit has been broken.  Not surprised really ... seemed to be ebbing yesterday.  He's had more than his fair share of bad luck this giro.

I hear Bertie is crying wolf again re his arm ... looks pretty sting to me!
Bartali

Sting .... strong!!!! LOL Smile
Mrs John Murphy

Bartali wrote:
Sounded like Porte's spirit has been broken.  Not surprised really ... seemed to be ebbing yesterday.  He's had more than his fair share of bad luck this giro.

I hear Bertie is crying wolf again re his arm ... looks pretty sting to me!


Dertie is like Nadal, always with the excuse.
Mrs John Murphy

1 ARU Fabio ITA AST 54:20:35 0:00
2 CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto 0:19
3 LANDA MEANA Mikel 1:14
4 KREUZIGER Roman 1:38
5 CATALDO Dario 1:49
6 URAN URAN Rigoberto 2:02
7 CARUSO Damiano 2:12
8 AMADOR Andrey 2:21
9 VISCONTI Giovanni 2:40
10 TROFIMOV Yury 3:15
11 VAN DEN BROECK Jurgen 3:25
       12 CUNEGO Damiano  3:43
       13 MONFORT Maxime 2 3:57
       14 FORMOLO Davide  3:59
       15 KONIG Leopold  4:24
       16 GENIEZ Alexandre 1 4:46
       17 PORTE Richie  5:05
       18 MOINARD Amael  5:24
       19 ATAPUMA HURTADO Darwin  6:28
       20 HESJEDAL Ryder  6:40
       21 IZAGUIRRE Jon  7:20
gerry12ie

Start times


163 Ion Izagirre (Spa) Movistar Team 14:42:00
164 Darwin Atapuma Hurtado (Col) BMC Racing Team 14:45:00
165 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling Team 14:48:00
166 Amaël Moinard (Fra) BMC Racing Team 14:51:00
167 Richie Porte (Aus) Team Sky 14:54:00
168 Alexandre Geniez (Fra) FDJ.fr 14:57:00
169 Leopold Konig (Cze) Team Sky 15:00:00
170 Davide Formolo (Ita) Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling Team 15:03:00
171 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Lotto Soudal 15:06:00
172 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Nippo - Vini Fantini 15:09:00
173 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Soudal 15:12:00
174 Giovanni Visconti (Ita) Movistar Team 15:15:00
175 Yury Trofimov (Rus) Team Katusha 15:18:00
176 Andrey Amador (CRc) Movistar Team 15:21:00
177 Damiano Caruso (Ita) BMC Racing Team 15:24:00
178 Rigoberto Uran (Col) Etixx - Quick-Step 15:27:00
179 Dario Cataldo (Ita) Astana Pro Team 15:30:00
180 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Tinkoff-Saxo 15:33:00
181 Mikel Landa Meana (Spa) Astana Pro Team 15:36:00
182 Alberto Contador (Spa) Tinkoff-Saxo 15:39:00
183 Fabio Aru (Ita) Astana Pro Team 15:42:00
Mrs John Murphy

This race is like a slow motion car crash.
mr shifter

gerry12ie wrote:
Start times
163 Ion Izagirre (Spa) Movistar Team 14:42:00
164 Darwin Atapuma Hurtado (Col) BMC Racing Team 14:45:00
165 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling Team 14:48:00
166 Amaël Moinard (Fra) BMC Racing Team 14:51:00
167 Richie Porte (Aus) Team Sky 14:54:00
168 Alexandre Geniez (Fra) FDJ.fr 14:57:00
169 Leopold Konig (Cze) Team Sky 15:00:00
170 Davide Formolo (Ita) Cannondale-Garmin Cycling Team 15:03:00

So you don't think the earlier riders will TT the best ??
I do hope you are wrong.  Wink
Biosphere

Came here to post the start times. Ta.

I will stick the rest of Huw's cooking into the microwave later on and post up the remaining stages.

Bartali wrote:
This guy is more articulate than me ...http://www.cyclingnews.com/featur...intentioned-but-rightly-penalised


And this guy is more knowledgeable than the rest of us combined Wink

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/...porte-a-wheel-should-be-applauded

To my mind, the Fletcher opinion piece couches the argument in hypotheticals about other riders in other races being unfairly disadvantaged if they don't have a countryman to speed up the wheel change by a few seconds is stretching things a lot and is symptomatic of a weak argument by not being able to point to anyone other than Porte (and his helpers) who were disadvantaged on Tuesday.

Furthermore, taking "rules are rules" as a starting point and trying to build a narrative solely around that misses the bigger picture of the advantage gained by the other GC riders being able to capitalise on the collective efforts on the peloton to gain further time on Porte as he chased back with limited fire-power whilst dodging the flotsam and jetsam that was falling of out the back of the race.

I'm definitely stopping this time as I'm repeating myself and having broken my promise to not go on about it, I've now got about as much credibility as a politician.

Speaking of politicians, and taking a final and very big step back and speaking generally about the world around us rather than anyone on here, I am sometimes struck by a mentality that seems to want to heap punishment on top of misfortune and how it's quite prevalent these days. My thoughts about Tuesday are probably as much a reaction against that as they are about the specifics of a wheel change and who handed it to him.
Biosphere

Just watching RAI for a bit before popping out for a bit. Another wet and tricky day.
Mrs John Murphy

Are there any splits? Looking at the Giro site I can't find any.

Edit: They've just put up the first split.

Dertie 11 seconds up on Aru

Dertie Liar. For someone with a bad shoulder etc etc amazing how he is out TTing everyone.
gerry12ie

Poor old Porte, he is quite fragile isn't he - or is the knock from yesterday?  

MJM, it don't matter what Contador says about his condition, or how he really is, the simple fact is he is as hard as fucking nails with a poker face that gives absolutely nothing away.  The only rider that took Armstrong (and Bruyneel and their cronies) head on and beat him.  Doping aside, only Nibali can get anywhere near him for toughness and smarts - he is simply in a different league to the rest of these...
Nolte

porte at 4:20 to kiriyenka
Mrs John Murphy

He's a pathological liar - who will do anything to win. Rather like the Uniballer in that sense. He learnt well under Saiz and the Hog.

To be fair I did expect this - I FP'd him for this stage.

LOL - Dertie has just passed Landa.

Porte I think is hilarious because a couple of years ago they were hailing him as this aussie hard man who gives it out in the peloton. Turns out he is super fragile.

The Aussie Tom Danielson.

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