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Bartali

Five?

Quote:
It is quite rare in cycling,” Wiggins said at a team training camp in Mallorca. “There aren’t many Tour winners with no [doping] history. You can count them on one hand.


Well I'm struggling to come up with five I believe, on the balance of probability, were clean.

Sastre ..... Bartali ....????
HuwB

Re: Five?

Bartali wrote:
Quote:
It is quite rare in cycling,” Wiggins said at a team training camp in Mallorca. “There aren’t many Tour winners with no [doping] history. You can count them on one hand.


Well I'm struggling to come up with five I believe, on the balance of probability, were clean.

Sastre ..... Bartali ....????


Lemond.................
gerry12ie

Errr - Van Impe?
pantanifan

Cadel Evans ???
Bartali

Lemond?  I thought it was alway received wisdom that he was on the old stuff ... but not the epo?  Anyway ... happy to include him and van Impe and Evans.  Well that's 5 ... easier than I thought.
Biosphere

Depends what Wiggins means. Is received wisdom enough, or actually failing a test? If it's a test, does Schleck the younger squeeze in?
Fontfroide

Bartali wrote:
Lemond?  I thought it was alway received wisdom that he was on the old stuff ... but not the epo?  Anyway ... happy to include him and van Impe and Evans.  Well that's 5 ... easier than I thought.


Without wishing to be naive and a bit less than informed (which I am), I have never read anything that suggests LeMond was doping.  Have you?

And what exactly is the illegal "old stuff"? in the context of Lemond.
SlowRower

Fontfroide wrote:
And what exactly is the illegal "old stuff"? in the context of Lemond.


Steroids, presumably. (Not that I'm implying he was taking them.)

The benefits of steroids on endurance athletes is quite limited, though at the end of a 3 week stage race, any aid to recovery would be useful, one would think.
Bartali

If we allow Lemond can we also have the badger?
gerry12ie

If you allow the Badger then you have to allow Big Mig

*flakjacket*
SlowRower

Biosphere wrote:
Depends what Wiggins means. Is received wisdom enough, or actually failing a test? If it's a test, does Schleck the younger squeeze in?


As this is Wiggo, he probably just means "Not many" in a fairly imprecise manner. Gut feel / received wisdom feels like the kind of measures Wiggo would use rather than anything objective.
HuwB

I have to be honest, I went for Wiggins's possibles, when naming Greg, rather than the forum's. Obviously, he's not going to be quite so sceptical as us.

However, I haven't heard anything directly related to Lemond.
If we are going to assume he was on the old school stuff,
are we really happy with Sastre getting a pass?
Outspoken at Tiscali CSC, sure, but still riding for Riis before the bomb exploded under his saddle.
Bartali

I'll give you Lemond if you give me Sastre.  But what about Hinault??
gerry12ie

Well there has been mutterings over the years about Hinault's knee and cortisone treatments, and Kochli's secret methods are open to the same doubts and misinterpretations that Brailsford's are, if only because they delivered big, big results.  I'm much more disinclined to give Hinault a pass than Lemond, and I don't really know why except that in the way he raced and in the single-minded determination to win he reminds me of others like Kelly, Museew, Merckx and even Armstrong - and we know that they were all at it.  

It should really follow that if Lemond is safe then Hinault should be, but following that logic brings you through Big Mig to the proven dopers...
berck

The closest I've seen of Lemond doping is when he rode for PDM in 1988. PDM was known to use doping products. Lemond left the team a year later, and had said he thought the team could trick him into using their products.

Lemond and PDM
Fontfroide

Bartali wrote:
If we allow Lemond can we also have the badger?


Is the criteria that "everyone knew" or is it that they got caught?  If it is that they got caught, then I don't think Indurain or Hinault got caught.  And other than insinuations of some on this list, I don't even know anyone who thinks that Lemond doped.

Which does not mean that Lemond, or Hinault or Indurain did not dope.  They might have.  But unless someone gets caught, surely they "didn't dope" in terms of answering questions like this.

So figure that is three.

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