| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| Nolte |
EU electionspeople, i am 24. this means i have not yet been embittered by continously losing elections (7 more unsuccessful elections for my chosen canduidates and i get a free sandwich)so anyone with any strong feelings about the eu elections on june 5ht (june 4th for uk folk i think. europe votes from 4th - 7th of june). it's only a month away i love this election lead up. first time i;'ll get to enjoy it. (yes i'm certifiably crazy) from the current line up in my constituency, Nessa Childers representing the Irish Labour Party is likely to be my No. 1 preference due to no Green Party candidate yet in the field. on the same day, we'll vote for the county councils. my likely pick is the green party candidate who also thought at the school i went to at the school i went to, there was a niece of one arty's eu candidate who i sat beside in english class and another who's father is running for the libertas limited. |
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| cardinal guzman |
You shouldn't vote - it only encourages them and adds to the illusion that you have a say - or more importantly, that someone is listening.
The Euro parliament is merely another method by which you are farmed for cash. Massive cash outlay; zero results. Mooo! |
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| kathy |
CG, if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain!
I am effectively disenfranchised, living outside the UK. But I can vote in local Spanish elections and these EU elections. I've already got my voting card. All I have to do now is to find out who the candidates are. |
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| cardinal guzman |
That's a logical fallacy if like me, you believe that voting is a tool used for disenfranchisement. But I'm not complaining - just pointing out that voting has no value. 
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| pantanifan |
CG - do your comments relate only to the Euro elections, or to elections in general? If they cover all elections, what would you suggest as an alternative?
Nolte - I guess your reasons for voting Green would be pretty obvious, but what are the issues that make you incline towards the Labour Party? On a more general note, do people vote on ideological grounds (presumably always for the same party), or for other reasons (possible floating voters)? Over here, the main opposition right-wing party has around 70% support at a national level, after seven years of a socialist-liberal coalition government, and the extreme right is in third place in the opinion polls. Meanwhile, attacks on the minority Roma population are increasing... |
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| cardinal guzman |
I think voting is the only workable equitable manner of governance.
Simply, in modern western elections, the process has been subverted to the point of irrelevance, mainly by the politicians and media but others have stepped up where needed - like Diebold. If the proces held meaningful power, it would be changed - and you wouldn't get to vote on that. Like religion, people usually vote the way their parents voted. There are exceptions, but this is usually the case. |
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| Nolte |
that's an understandable view. however i believe the reason for such a sceptical view of the european parliament is a lack of understanding. this is one of the best article's i've read about the european parliament - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...nion/2008/0603/1212365084447.html
because of the candidates so far announced, Nessa Childers is the best it's particularly on social issues that i feel she matches my viewpoint best and despite, she being a traitor to the green party, i still like her [i should note that in ireland we don't have the single vote. we have a system of proportionalo representation ] now if an independent enters the race with more similar views to mine then her's i'll give them the no. 1 but i don't see there being any party person that would get my no. 1 ahead of her. she also views the environmental issues as important in the last european elections, my no. 1 and 2 went to independent candidates and when they were eliminate, my vote went to my no. 3 which was the green party. when she was eliminated, my vote was at no. 5 and went to the labour candidate and then he missed out on election.
depends on the person. i have my preferences towards left wingers and social liberals. the environment though tops these for me however while a party like sinn fein may preach a left wing message, those ******** will never get my vote.
i disagree in regards to the under 30's. while that might be true for the older generations, certainly not the cause for younger ones. hell, it's only since i''ve been able to vote that my mother has stopped thinking of the green party here as being a root of evil. actually speaking of that, i don't know who my mother votes for . if i was like my father, i would stay at home on election days. that's out of laziness i know my maternal grandfather is a fianna fail supporter. his own father had gone to the fianna fail ard fheis every year (that's the national conference) ------ may i also take this opportunity to apologise that due to this discussion, the banner ad is for Libertas Limited. i apologise wholeheartedly bring back the muslim singles ad |
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| ventoux |
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| Nolte |
also here's a test for people
http://votematch.eu/ answer the q's and see who you match the views of my results were: Party Similarity 1. Verts/ALE (the greens) 2. PES (euopean socialist party - labour) 3. ALDE (the liberals. lib dems would be the uk member) 4. GUE/NGL (the communists. sinn fein would be ireland's member 5. EPP (european people's party - fine gael is from ireland and the tories are members though the tories are looking to leave it and form a new group) 6. ID (anti-eu people like the ukip) |
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| kathy |
I looked at this thinking it might be useful for me, but they don't do it for Spain 
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| fede40 |
I'm waiting for Italy to remember that I live here now... not that overseas votes ever counted for anything... In Italy noone cares about EU parliament election. they're perceived as a very accurate survey of Italian politics. and as such I'd like to see mr. B's popularity go down... although I can't see it happen... all italian men will be worshipping the 71yo who divorces his 50-something wife already having (allegedly) a barely legal girlfriend...
it's also amazing to see how everytime he's on telly his hair look thicker and darker... anyway, I always enjoyed elections. It's nice to think that your own cross on that piece of paper could actually mean something. so far I only missed on referendum and that was because I was studying abroad. |
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| Nolte |
i will try to help where i can with the help of wikipedia * Greens (Vert) - Confederación de Los Verdes ALDE - * Democratic Convergence of Catalonia (Convergència Democràtica de Catalunya) * Mallorcan Union (Unió Mallorquina) * Liberal Democratic Centre (Centro Democratico Liberal) – observer *Basque Nationalist Party PES - Partido Socialista Obrero Español EPP - * Partido Popular (PP) (People's Party) * Unió Democràtica de Catalunya (Democratic Union of Catalonia) of course, there are about 30 other spanish parties not dealt with * note: wikipedia has probably been inaccruately changed in the last 5 minutes by some punk kid ------ Fede, do you think what Ms Lario has said about Berlusconi will damage whatever his current party is called (Forza Italia? Alitalia?) or will the praise he got for his handling of the eartquake tragedy remain? i really thought the most damning criticsm of Msd Lario was to do with 18th birthdayt party "that really surprises me as he attended none of our children's 18ths" how many parties are running in italy? i gather for the italian general election, there was 40 something |
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| kathy |
Yes, well, the two main parties in Spain are the PP and PSOE. No-one else seems to get a look in. The PP, despite being known as the Partido Popular, are right-wing. The PSOE is the Labour party (Obrero means worker). I've just got no idea who the candidates are for my area. I expect I'll have to search for a website that lists them, in the hope that there will be some more interesting alternatives than just the two main parties. |
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| fede40 |
well i can't remember how many parties we had, but 40-ish sounds pretty realistic. it's hard to tell what's been the most damning criticism simply because, given mr B's power within the media, it's hard to tell how many people actually heard/read about it. Also, mr B's catch-phrase "it's the comunist press plotting against me" tends to be rather (and disgracefully) successful within his own fans. I say disgracefully simply because the guy owns 3 TV stations (which hardly mentioned the whole thing) plus controls RAI (Italy's BBC) being prime minister. he also owns (well through his brother, but then again our laws against conflict of interests is non existent) newspapers and magazines... anyways, his soon-to-be ex-wife spoke about him as a mentally ill person (not sure about it but the size of his ego is worrying) and she also mentioned that he would have had underage girlfriends. my biggest problem about mr B is that a in western country (not to mention a founding member of EU) someone like him should not be allowed to be prime minister. some of the laws his past governments passed (bankruptcy only leads to a fine... just to mention one) together with his links with politicians condemned for either bribery or their relationships with mafia should make him one of the most unfit politicians worldwide for the job. p.s. I blame the centre-left coalition for him still being able to run for the post and protect his interests the way he p.p.s. if any of you read the Economist you will know what I'm on about... then again these days even Metro seems to like his stories... |
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| Nolte |
[quote="fede40"]
yeah the underage girlfriend is what i feel her comment about the 18th birthday party was about
talking about laws he passedd, i recall a judge ruling when [was it prodi] was in charge of the country, there were the insider and illegal trading charges against burlusconi and the judge struck the charges out despit ethem occuring before berlusconi entered politics but because after he had became prime minister, he put forward legislation to make what he did legal i've probably got it wrong as i've refered to him as one of the last 3 dictator's in europe (along with lukashenko and putin) as you can see, i've very interested in politics |
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| Severo |
Not true. I can't make claims beyond Great Britain, but 'alignment' has broken down (into either dealignment or realignment - I suppose time will tell between these). This has occurred from the 1970s on and is mostly due to class dealignment and weak policy performance. |
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| Nolte |
this is an informative video about the european parliament and how it works
http://www.euronews.net/2009/05/05/political-groups/ |
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| Severo |
I visited the EP back in February. The MEPs we met were all very pleased to tell us about the accomplishments of the EP, but the cynic in me wasn't impressed. Most power in the EU is vested in the Commission (sole right of initiative) and the Council. How do we vote for them again? | ||||||||
| Nolte |
but that's not true, is it? that's one of the great myths perpetrated by the anti- EU forces the parliament under the budgettary treatieses of the 1970's gave the parliament budgetary powers while the powers of the european parliament are extended to all but 2 areas, the common agricultural policy and another area. i forget what unfortunately. the parliament can also indict the commision as a whole. this has never happened yet but nearly did in 1999 in the commision headed by Santer from Luxembourg. It's a powerful tool indeed, the commision has to be approved by the parliament and as we all remember with the italian candidate last time, this was difficult until the candidate was replaced. this calls for compromise between the liberal group, the european people's party and the socialists while the commision may not be directly elected, it is indirect sufferage as they are appointed by the national governments while the euroipean council is headed by the leaders of each country and the leader of the european commision this is just another myth put forward by the anti european forces as people aren't really informed of what the eu does. this i think should really be a focus of the pro european parties get rid of the education deficit on the functions of the european union so the citizens of europe know what it's about video on european workings - http://www.euronews.net/2009/04/28/european-institutional-triangle/ ------ more about the liars who oppose europe the libertas ceo declan ganley has claimed that a vote for the independnet mep marian harkin is a vote for fianna fail (the governing party of ireland). this is just one of many vicious attacks by ganley while the best reason the candidate for libertas in dublin Caroline Simmons for people not to vote for the labour candidate Pronsias De Rossa (hey british posters, try to pronounce this name!!!!. that's a joke. it's the gaelige for Francis Ross) is that he's 70 and has 15 years of experience in the european parliament. if that's the best attack, ms simmons has on the fine fine man that is Pronsias De Rossa, then don't bother trying the personal attack by their candidate in my constituency Ireland East on the MEP for Fine Gael and the EPP was also just vicious. let's hope the voters of ireland see through this vile rotten organisation. i think they've brought a new level of low behaviour to the irish elections and this is just not good. we the people deserve better. don't pollute our politics with the lowest common denominator politics of the US ------ this is just a good website for european issues - http://www.euronews.net/ or for those in the uk and ireland with sky digital, go to channel 508 for half an hour a day and you will learn stuff i watch it in the mornings when i am getting ready for work. i originally started watching it many years ago before we had the internet at home or sky digital to get any cycling results as it was shown on irish tv in the mornings |
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| ventoux |
Hey Nolte, you've put it more eloquently than I might, but you're right - that Declan Ganley is a total bastard! How come he can just buy himself a party (*?!?) & get away with peddling such bollocks (see, told you I wouldn't be as eloquent  )
... oh, would you like to have a go at Mary Lou MacDonald now... think she's a disingenuous chancer myself... 
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| fede40 |
[quote="Nolte"]
can't remember all the trials he's been through, but what the opposition, and the few journalists who don't work for him, accuse him of is passing laws to save him (and his closest friends) from going to jail. today I was listening to one of these few journalists on youtube who listed a few italian candidates for the EP not errrr.... let's say not exactly worth of sitting in such a place (nor in any other Parliament for what matters, but of course they do sit in the italian one...). truth be told these unfit candidates sit on both sides... |
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| maffy |
turns out i've got a vote for europe. the old council changed the less-than-a-mile-away voting location to one thats about 4.5 miles away. there may possibly have been disabled people amongst the less-than-500 people who voted at the old location. lots of stuff about walking down to the voting place to register a protest vote of none-of-the-above. it's a long way now. | ||||||||
| Spoo |
Looks like the MPs expenses scandal has come at a pretty bad time whereas turn outs are concerned in the UK. They are pretty low as it is I believe but all these revelations don't exactly fill you with confidence in any of the parties. (On that point if MPs can fiddle expenses for houses in London, god knows what MEPs can do if they're claiming expenses on homes in different countries! )
I was tempted to give it a miss (something I don't particularly agree with) just because you don't know who to trust but thats the only way a group like the BNP will get in so will probably exercise my right. Is there a 'none of the above' option? 
On Noltes point earlier I agree that the traditional way of voting the way your family always vote is not necessarily the case any more, I'm under 30 and I couldn't tell you which way my parents have voted. |
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| Nolte |
don't trust her myself but then again i would not trust sinn fein hell she's only turned up for work 57% of the time according to today's irish times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...land/2009/0512/1224246323817.html * Liam Aylward (91 per cent); * Colm Burke (86 per cent); * Brian Crowley (94 per cent); * Proinsias De Rossa (85 per cent); * Avril Doyle (89 per cent); * Marian Harkin (88 per cent); Jim Higgins (87 per cent); * Mary Lou McDonald (57 per cent); * Maireád McGuinness (84 per cent); * Gay Mitchell (90 per cent); * Seán Ó Neachtain (93 per cent); * Eoin Ryan (83 per cent); and * Kathy Sinnott (92 per cent). think if i had a 57% record of attendance at work, i'd be fired with the month let alone 5 years later. compared to the other euro sceptic parliamentaria Ms Sinnott, this is appalling a person i know has said he'd never vote for any sinn fein candidate because of them kidnapping shergar
that's a dissapointment for the people in your area. i know in ireland, our polling stations are the local primary schools. maybe that's why i love elections because of the time i was at school having the day off.
back to sinn fein here, they took STG£500,000 in expenses and they don't even sit in the british parliament. they're renting 3 flats for their 5 candidates at a cost of 3,600 each for two and 5,400 for one. That's appalling. they claim they see no benefit of the money but iaccording to yesterday';s p-aper, the 3 properties are owned by an irish businessman so i wonder if the businessman is connected to the party
because of the schools, i'm reminded of a story i read in a book on politics back in the 1930's, a candidate James Dillon was leaving a polling station. On the way out, he met an elderly couple in their 70's it turned lout these had walked 14 miles in order to cast their vote. the candidate asked them who they were voting for. their response " Why John Dillon's son not that it'll do us any good." This without knowing that it was the son asking them ------ found another test http://www.euprofiler.eu my irish results Party Match 1.Labour Party 78,4% 2.Green Party 75,0% 3.Fine Gael 62,1% 4.Socialist Party 61,8% 5.Sinn Féin 57,7% 6.Fianna Fáil 56,7% 7.Libertas 35,9% when importance is included Party Match 1.Green Party 69,5% 2.Labour Party 68,1% 3.Socialist Party 50,0% 4.Fine Gael 47,4% 5.Sinn Féin 44,2% 6.Fianna Fáil 38,8% 7.Libertas 6,3% this also allows for every other country in europe i think in europe as a whole Party Match 1.Partido Humanista 91,2% 2.Plaid Cymru 90,3% 3.Die Grünen 89,3% 4.Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds 88,0% 5.Sinistra e Libertà 88,0% 6.Groen! 87,5% 7.Οικολόγοι Πράσινοι 87,0% 8.Zares, nova politika 87,0% 9.Parti écologiste francophone de Belgique 87,0% 10.Lehet Más a Politika 86,5% for fede, this is my italian % when importance is included Party Match 1.Sinistra e Libertà 88,5% 2.Partito di Rifondazione Comunista - Partito dei Comunisti Italiani 79,8% 3.Partito Democratico 74,1% 4.Italia dei Valori 64,2% 5.Unione Democratica di Centro 42,0% 6.Fiamma Tricolore/La Destra-Movimento per l'Autonomia-Partito Pensionati-Alleanza di Centro 26,3% 7.Popolo delle Libertà 23,1% 8.Lega Nord 9,6% for kathy, my spanish when % when importance is included 1.Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds 85,3% 2.Partido Socialista Obrero Español 85,3% 3.Izquierda Unida 79,5% 4.Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya 73,2% 5.Bloque Nacionalista Galego 71,0% 6.Union Progreso y Democracia 65,6% 7.Convergencia i Unio 58,5% 8.Partido Nacionalista Vasco 54,5% 9.Ciudadanos-Partido de la Ciudadania 52,0% 10.Coalicion Canaria 47,2% 11.Partido Popular 42,4% for the english Party Match 1.Liberal Democrats 70,7% 2.Labour Party 52,7% 3.Green Party England & Wales 51,9% 4.Conservative Party 46,0% 5.British National Party 0,0% 6.UK Independence Party 0,0% does that mean the bnp and the ukip are the same parties? for the northern ireland Party Match 1.Social Democratic and Labour Party 65,4% 2.Sinn Féin 51,4% 3.Ulster Unionist Party 27,3% 4.Democratic Unionist Party 10,7% how come no Alliance? must complement the alliance party strategy running ian parsley to get the visually impaired unionists to vote for them. scotland Party Match 1.Scottish Green Party 78,3% 2.Scottish Liberal Democrats 70,7% 3.Scottish National Party 64,2% 4.Scottish Labour Party 52,7% 5.Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party 46,0% 6.UK Independence Party 0,0% 7.British National Party 0,0% and finally, the welsh Party Match 1.Plaid Cymru 88,9% 2.Welsh Liberal Democrats 70,7% 3.Welsh Labour Party 52,7% 4.Green Party England & Wales 51,9% 5.Welsh Conservative Party 46,0% 6.UK Independence Party 0,0% 7.British National Party 0,0% all the results were with importance included do you think i've too much free time |
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| sabcarrera |
This robbing of our votes is a measure of how the UK government takes voting seriously. I do have a right to complain, I pay taxes and as a paying customer I always have a say on how the money is spent. |
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| Nolte |
This is the manifesto of a UK political party called the Christian Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Party_(UK) that was their manifesto for the scottish parliament |
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| Nolte |
interesting, irish times had polls in it today for each of our 4 eu constituencies
our board sponsor libertas is not doing well their chief executive officer Declan Ganley has 9% in the North West. this is about 5th in the poll and about half of the poll for the 3 s leaders their east regional manager O'Malley got 3%. in comparison, this guy got 2% Link and this cagey person who doesn't want to reveal his policies also has 2% http://www.drogheda-independent.i...andidate-in-election-1737711.html
and their dublin regional manager Ms Simons got 1% in the poll the ceo will need to have a serious talk with his regional management about their performances so far however who will sack the ceo? the people of the north west, that's who |
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| Nolte |
http://www.euronews.net/2009/05/1...ou-are-about-to-see-is-fictional/
this is good |
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| ventoux |
I'm in the North West - he'll get fuck all from me! |
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| ventoux |
Whatever you think of FF, this is the depressing background to the election up here.... |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
I got a flyer from the BNP through today, which is very depressing since this is the first time I can ever remember them standing around here. | ||||||||
| igmeister |
Speaking of the BNP a fantastic piece from yesterday's Guardian by Charlie Brooker.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment...may/18/charlie-brooker-bnp-racism |
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| Severo |
The Commission has the sole right of policy initiative, yes. The Council guides them what to initiate policy on (i.e. set the overall framework). The Parliament comes a very distant third. |
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| rob of the og |
Nolte is half-right. The "anti-EU forces" are trying to have it both ways here. They say that the Parliament is ineffective (and therefore pointless) but this is because the Council and the Commission are there to represent the sovereign governments of the member states, who the "anti-EU forces" are determined should retain primacy for decision-making. |
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| Nolte |
rob response to this was very well put and he makes a good point indeed, there was even more power in the lisbon treaty for the european parliament and then sinn fein and libertas who opposed the lisbon treaty complain the parliament doesn't have enough power |
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| Nolte |
please do not try to burn out. it unleashes demons |
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| Nolte |
i see the christian solidarity party is running in 13 consitutencies in ireland for county council
10 of these constituencies are being contested by people called Colm Callanan |
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| mr shifter |
CG, they have been saying that to me for 30 years or so. I cannot Vote because there is No one Worthy of my Vote. I am not a lamb or sheep and I will have my say and complain because that is my right. I used to go to the polling station and be given my vote slip of paper and immediately would turn it over and blot out the "Number" on the back. They would tell me that I had Voided the paper and I would just shrug my shoulders. I would usually put a cross against every candidate because they are all the same and listen to their party and forget me and their promises. Many years ago a Returning officer came over and with my badgering he finally agreed that the slip of paper is like a raffle ticket and they can look at it later to see how I voted. You see you present a card with a Number on it and the voting slip has another number that is recorded in the Ledger. Democracy, Secrecy, it's a load of Boll*cks At the last General Election there was not one word from the 3 main parties about Europe and a few days later the French said "NO" in their Referendum. You will now like this bit. I have done my Europe Voting already as I now have a Postal Vote and someone is saying the right things at last. No we don't have a BNP here, but a lot of other candidates Be Lucky....you need it. |
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| Nolte |
another article on powers of the european parliament
http://www.rte.ie/news/elections/...s/2009/0526/parliamentprimer.html while in rte's report on attendance, this is mentioneed for mcdonald
also when talking about sinn fein, it's worrying currently that opponents of sinn fein are still being attacked Ms Uzell (who's brother Joseph Rafferty was murdered by IRA Thugs - though there are no other members of the ira other than thugs) has been the victim of intimidation where her car was vandalised. this is very worrying. it should not be happening in a european democracy, this is more like what goes on in tinpot dictatorships like burma. Ms Uzell is running for dublin city council. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...land/2009/0528/1224247598666.html an sdlp member who was canvassing on behald of their candidate for the euopean had a gun pointed at her in upper bann. this is just appalling http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...land/2009/0528/1224247598656.html |
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| Nolte |
Re: EU electionsi just reread my opening post
obviously wasn't any good of a school to make this error the word should be taught not thought i thought long and hard at school sadly most of it was irrelevant to the actual classes |
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| Nolte |
we've also only seen 2 camvassers for parties in the local elections, both of which were the candidates themselves
the mé feiners havent bothered yet. maybe they blacklisted our house after the locals.eu's 5 years ago and general election 2 years ago
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| kathy |
Well, I got a leaflet from the PP (Parti Popular - Conservatives), the other day, and the PSOE (Labour) have just been round in a van with a loudspeaker - in the middle of a tremendous thunderstorm
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| bianchigirl |
Nolte, thank you for the links and information. I have to say I share the view that my vote is important - even if I spoil my ballot paper, as I have done on ocasion, I still think you have to make the commitment to vote and it worries me what happens when apathy takes hold and minority extremist parties profit. | ||||||||
| Nolte |
i agree bg. i do see spoiling the vote as a legitimate response in an election
staying home and not voting is just plain laziness. spoiling the vote is a response to the lack of suitable candidates i did envisage spoiling my vote for the presidential election in 2004 if the only candidate nthat could get enough support to run for it (complicated system in ireland, you either need 5 council's support or the support of 20 members of the oireachtais. in this case, fianna fail were happy with the president as she was their candidatre 7 years previously, fine gael and labour parties didn't want to waste resources for the election despite a fine member of the labour party wanting to run, green party wouldn't have got the 20 but had a candidate who wanted to run) was going to be dana rosemary scallon (who had previously won the eurovision with all kinds of everything  )
so if it was a case of scallon v mcaleese, i'd spoil my vote of course this was a problem raised by someone when it came to electronic voting that there was no option for spoiling votes |
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| bianchigirl |
I guess you could just include a 'none of the above' option
But thanks for all the thought provoking information |
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| SlowRower |
At the risk of seeming pedantic, spoiling the ballot paper, whilst demonstrating a commitment to get involved and showing your displeasure with "all of the above" doesn't address the issue of minority parties (extremist or otherwise) profiting from the apathy of those who stay at home.
A "none of the above" box would be an excellent idea, though. |
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| mazda |
As someone who regularly votes for a minority party I don't think I like your tone. It's not like the big parties haven't profited from apathy and our useless voting system for years. (of course these views don't necessarily apply outside of the UK) |
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| SlowRower |
Mazda, Sorry - no offence intended. I was simply referring to the issue of minority parties benefiting that had been raised earlier. There's nothing inherently wrong with minority parties mobilising their grass-roots support in great numbers! If the "minority" parties can motivate potential voters better than the mainstream parties then good luck to them. If this gives a so called "undesirable" result then it's up to the mainstream parties to address the voters' concerns. |
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| Nolte |
another election vote ad. i liked this one alot too
Link although i feel this would give an advantage to any riders from the us in the race |
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| cardinal guzman |
Anyone who votes for a minority party in the general election in Britain should vote LibDem as they are your only chance of ever getting proportional representation. | ||||||||
| Nolte |
and this is an article in today's irish times by tony kinsella
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...nion/2009/0601/1224247817470.html thgis is an interesting point
i personally think mr. kinsella is a fine political commentator. he co-wrote an excellent critique on us foreign policy with another excellent commentator fintan o'toole "post washington: why america can't rule the world" published in 2005 by tasc press |
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| Nolte |
two stories of interest
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap...land/2009/0602/1224247881520.html despite the terrible puns but paranoia is creeping in. i won't post the full of this article http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0602/1224247882161.html but i do believe the headline could be replaces with "Dear Madam editor, do not make me redundant like my other journalist colleagues in Brussels" |
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| Nolte |
i know i'm obsessed with libertas but
simmons has really shown herself to be foolish in this. |
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| ventoux |
Well, don't sound so surprised... she was foolish enough to join Libertas in the first place....
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| Nolte |
oh that's right
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| SlowRower |
Except that if the LDs ever got in via First Past the Post they'd probably stick with it... PR has much to recommend it, but it's not necessarily going to produce a better country. It might give rise to a stable, sensible set up as one typically sees in Germany, but could also result in a minority party holding the balance of power and thus wielding far more power than their actual support warrants. FPTP virtually guarantees that the BNP and other such extreme minority parties are irrelevant at a national level. On a lighter note, PR also results in implausibly lengthy ballot papers. I've just voted in the EU election and had 12 parties and over 60 candidates to consider. (Some of the parties must surely have more candidates than voters...) It was almost too much for my simple brain. The local election paper was simplicity itself though - two well known parties with one candidate each. |
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| rob of the og |
PR? No thanks. We have PR for this Euro election and it means the result in the Wales constituency is basically known already. 4 seats available: Labour, Conservative and Plaid Cymru are effectively guaranteed a seat each. The only interest is which of those three will get the 4th seat. If we had four fftp constituencies (say North, West, South-Central and Gwent-Powys) there would be a tidy 3-way battle in each constituency and there would be some point going out to vote. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
It depends on what the PR system is - there are lots of different versions of the system. Thresholds etc can also be used to exclude minority parties/extremists.
A friend of mine is standing as a Lib Dem candidate. Another friend of mine/ ex-colleague is standing in Hungary as an MEP for FIDESZ, and the father of a Hungarian friend of mine is standing as a Romanian Fascist candidate in Romania. |
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| Nolte |
the irish pr system is great, take the following sistuation posted on another forum (by me) to show how the irish system works
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| Nolte |
god, listening to audio of a candidate debate for my eu consitutency. the rubbish the sinn fein candidates tomás shakrey and kathleen funchion is coming out with
if they are intending that they represnts the presentable face of sinn féin for the future, that's appalling i think that's the sinn féin idea for both sharkey and toireassa ferris in the south. the sinn fein party is looking at replacing the current party representatives of their region (louth & north kerry - both of which had served time in prison for importing guns for the ira) with the more presentable likes |
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| bianchigirl |
We all went to the polling station this evening - think it's important to get Tom interested early! He charmed the room and wouldn't leave he was enjoying being centre of attention too much. Dog skulked about and weed on the polling booth.
But there was no excitement about it - I remember number taking when I was about 13, being so involved in it and wanting to do a good job so those at party HQ would have a tiny picture of the way it was going. Canvassing and getting the vote out - I went round one time with Glenda Jackson - staying up for the count. A real sense of being directly involved in making a difference. All that's gone, dissipated by cynical media and cynical career politicians. I'm thinking of standing myself
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| pantanifan |
Good time to be standing for Fidesz, as they are likely to win a landslide victory... Meanwhile the extreme right are expected to win some seats in the EP for the first time, their leader has (allegedly) just been doing some Jew bashing, despite being married to a Jewish man http://www.politics.hu/20090605/o...tisemitic-internet-post-by-morvai |
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| bianchigirl |
Why are the far right always able to capitalise on situations where we need to cooperate, not hate? | ||||||||
| Mrs John Murphy |
The whole point of right wing discourses is to blame other people for the situation within which you find yourself. Why take responsibility when you can blame the Jews, immigrants, muslims, homosexuals, EU, women, etc for your situation.
What is more worrying is that the British 'left' (and I use the term loosely) thinks that the way to counter the appeal of the far right is to adopt its language and arguments. If this Labour government had not been so obsessed with appealing to the Daily Mail and those in 'middle england' then it would not have got itself into the mess it is in. When an unreconstructed racist like Phil Woolas can some how get to be a government minister then it is a very sad day for the Labour party and evidence that it has completely prostituted itself. |
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| Nolte |
yes indeed, the main thing for the far right is to find scapegoats instead of actually working on the problems further to what you said, this list was posted by a british guy on another messageboard i'm on
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| Nolte |
in the town council (which i coulodn't vote for as i live 1 mile outside the town limit. i could vote for the district in county elections), my preferred candidate is 2nd in the tallies,
there's nine seats which means 2nd is good. (only one constituency) biut hopefully she can also get the county council seat. i have no tallies for it yet |
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| Nolte |
on rte radio, they said the green aprty could get 3 seats on my local county's town council with my person, this is an infinite increase over the 0 they got 5 years ago
not bad for a party in a coalition government that ain't particularly liked let's hope so |
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| Nolte |
my local town council has been complete it is
2 FF 2 FG 1 labour 1 Green 1 SF and 2 Independent sinn fein were very lucky to get the 1 seat. they treated the area with contempt with their 2 candidates not having anything to do with the town itself. they were catapult candidates so they were lucky to get the one seat the town council represents an increase for the green and an increase for the independent (from 1 to 2). it was a labour seat lost and a fg seat lost one of the FG people who got in is a guy who made a fool of himself. he had previously said that "Eunuch Powell was right" the labour party guy is interesting. his claim to fame is that he's been an extra in 4 movies and has signed autographs with harrison ford
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| Nolte |
and yes i do like elections | ||||||||
| SlowRower |
Politicians of all hues seek to find scapegoats rather than working on problems, though. Only today, New Labour is blaming voter anger over the MPs' expenses scandal for their shocking showing in the EU election. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with having an obnoxious leader with a decidely dodgy mandate, an incompetent Chancellor, reneging on a commitment to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, trashing the public finances and having David Milliband (still) and Caroline Flint (thankfully no longer) in senior positions. What is interesting is that the success of the BNP is apparently largely due to the defection of dissatisfied Labour voters, rather than from picking up votes from the lunatic fringe of the Tory party. |
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| ventoux |
Sadly illuminating to see Nick Griffin being interviewed last night... he referred to the "indigenous" population, and was asked how he defined "indigenous" - his response was to say "well, you just have to look and you can tell..." (quote may not be word perfect, as I didn't write it down... too busy killing myself laughing )
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| bianchigirl |
Currently reading Orwell's Victory and finding him more and more precient - and myself longing to live in Barcelona circa the height of the revolution... | ||||||||
| Beasley |
as they say, give 'em enough rope... the best antidote to neo-fascism is, often, the neo-fascists themselves.
Unfortunately, Griffin and Co. aren't the only monsters lurking within the European Parliament; our continental cousins have been packing them off there for years. NONE is ever growing; they're getting scarily close to being eligible to form a group. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
In some ways the UK is becoming more European by having a collection of fascists in parliament.
SR - The point is this - the Labour party since its time under Blair has moved domestic policy successively to the right. It has attempted to deal with growing (ex)-working class unhappiness by pandering to intolerance rather than by offering an alternative positive vision. That racists like Blunkett, Straw, Clarke and Woolas have any place in the PLP is a disgrace to the party. This is not a 'sudden' problem but rather the result of poor decisions made 10 or so years ago. The Labour party is reaping what it has sown by its pandering and appeasing of the Sun and Mail on issues of race. The Labour Party is reaping what it has sown by failing to improve basic services for those who need them most of all. All parties and the media have been riding the tiger of 'acceptable racism' and now it has come back to bite them on the arse. |
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| SlowRower |
It's probably bitten Labour on the behind, but the rise of the BNP will surely work to the advantage of the Tories, at least in the short term. The BNP strongholds are core labour territory on the whole - any rise in popularity of the BNP will take more votes away from Labour than the Tories, converting safe Labour seats into marginals and marginals into losses at the next general election. It's about time the BNP was subject to proper political scrutiny, rather than being ignored simply because it has an unpalatable message. I can't believe Nick Griffin would have much credibility left after a grilling from Paxman or Humphreys; whilst he's sidelined by the main media he's free to spout unsubstantiated rubbish that appeals to the lowest common denominator. In his victory speech today, he was claiming that racism in the UK is predominantly aimed at people "like him". (Presumably by this, he means true British, upstanding, honest, hardworking, salt of the earth type, rather than cynical exploiter of the fears of the ignorant.) This doubtless appeals to his "target market" but surely can't be too hard to discredit. (And if it can't be discredited then debate will, at least, clarify the real issues.) |
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| igmeister |
Griffin is a complete fucking nazi moron, he was interviewed on five live this morning and got far too easy a ride. I was very disappointed with Nicky Campbell. At one point he claimed the BNP were the party of the working man in Britain, it was begging for someone to ask him if that included black working men or Asian working men, not to mention his views on women... When asked to offer his policies on issues other than race or immigration he then called climate change "a myth".... Stupid twat. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Ultimately no one has quite worked out how to deal with the BNP or for that matter fascists in general.
Warren Mitchell used to complain about people telling him how much they agreed with Alf Garnett. Mitchell gave up pointing out that it was actually satirising the racists. The point is that Griffin's views on immigration, climate change, women etc are all those with which those who already vote for them will already agree with. Something interesting that has come out of the votes - the BNP actually got fewer votes than in 2004 in the North West which shows I think the degree to which voter apathy has played a role. |
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| SlowRower |
Half right, I'd say. Nazi - yes. Moron - definitely not. The press conference yesterday where he got pelted with eggs was a masterpiece. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he'd posted an advert on Daytime TV saying "Wanted - Idiots to come and throw eggs at me on Tuesday afternoon to make me look like a victim" or if he'd hired the local branch of "Rent-an-idiot" to throw the eggs. The main parties are going to have to wise-up. Simply dismissing Griffin and the BNP will play right into his hands, particularly since the BNP now gets a lot of EU money to fund their PR! |
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, a law to guard against the promotion of homosexuality.