| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| Mrs John Murphy |
Delusional, stupid or clairvoyant?Shiti Piti obviously thinks its 2005 still... hate to break it to him but this is as good as it is going to get for him. Enjoy that two year holiday.Winner Valverde eyes Tours of Italy and France * Reuters, Sunday September 20 2009 By Alasdair Fotheringham MADRID, Sept 20 (Reuters) - Alejandro Valverde was quick to name the Tours of Italy and France as his major 2010 targets after success on Sunday in the Tour of Spain. "I don't think a victory in either can be more difficult than the Tour of Spain I've just won," the Spaniard told reporters. "Everybody had doubts over my chances of winning a Grand Tour, but now those doubts have gone." Victorious in 59 races in his eight-year career, the Caisse D'Epargne rider said: "I've won everything else (except a major Tour) so finally taking one is a very special feeling. "I didn't get any stages along the way, but sometimes if you want something big like a Tour you have to sacrifice smaller things." Valverde was accompanied onto the final podium by Spain's Samuel Sanchez, second at 55 seconds, with Australian Cadel Evans in third at 1:32. "A major stage race is 21-days long, the most consistent rider wins and Alejandro never had a bad day," Sanchez told reporters. "I was stronger than him in the time trials, but he knew how to make the most of my errors." Barred from racing in Italy since May for alleged links to the Operation Puerto anti-doping investigation, Valverde racked up victories this season in the Tour of Catalonia, the Dauphine Libere and the Tour of Burgos before Sunday's success. Italy's Olympic Committee (CONI) say that blood samples Valverde gave at a doping control when last year's Tour entered Italy for a stage matched DNA from code-named bags of blood discovered in Operation Puerto, launched in 2006. Valverde has repeatedly claimed he is innocent and appealed against the ban to the Court of Arbitration of Sport. Sunday's final 110-km stage from Rivas VaciaMadrid to Madrid was won in a bunch sprint by Andre Greipel of Germany, his fourth stage victory in this year's Tour. "What I've done here has far exceeded my expectations, I thought we'd get one stage at most," the winning Columbia-HTC rider told reporters. "Instead we ended up with five victories for the squad and on top of that I've won the points classification. It's amazing." Valverde's final objective this season is the world championships next weekend in Mendrisio, Switzerland. "The important thing is that the Spanish are united as a team," he said. "If we have the same objectives then anything is possible." #### |
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| HuwB |
Eyes them, as opposed to rides them..... | ||||||||
| Enchantress |
Putting aside his potential banning from the whole sport for a moment....
Nothing is going to beat Contador in the TDF other than a positive test. I think most of us already know that. Naturally after winning a huge race one might be accused of having too much confidence but the facts remain. |
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| kathy |
Don't you think he might just be trying to wind the Italians up? | ||||||||
| Me, a fan? |
My vote goes for delusional. I would have to put it into perspective for Piti, the Tour is a harder race. Just look at third place of the Vuelta, he finished 45 minutes down in the Tour. But then again, didn't Cadel have 37 bungled up wheel changes at the Tour? 
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| paperman |
Delusional | ||||||||
| pantanifan |
None of the above.
My vote goes for euphoric and relieved to have won a GT - his record at the Vuelta is pretty good, and he would have won had Vino and Kash not been in superb form 2 years ago... Would anyone be surprised if a golfer or tennis player interviewed after winning their first major were to contemplate winning more and other majors? I guess the reason for the surprise is the Shadow of Puerto hanging over him, but he's hardly likely to hold his hands up and say he expects to be banned worldwide by next year, given his attitude so far.... |
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| Bartali |
But then again Kreuziger was there or there abouts in the Tour , but could only make 61st at 1h 30 mins+ in the Vuelta??? |
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| The Lemondheads |
Re: Delusional, stupid or clairvoyant?
How can the links be 'alleged' when CONI have concluded the case and found him guilty? |
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| kathy |
Re: Delusional, stupid or clairvoyant?
Because CONI have condemned him without evidence. That's why the UCI are proscrastinating - they know it won't stand up in court. They have 'evidence', said to come from a Barcelona lab. As I understand it, the OP blood bags have never left Madrid. I am getting fed up with everyone believing what they read on websites like CN. I prefer to get my information from the country of origin, not Australia, or whoever owns CN now. I'm not saying Valverde wasn't involved in OP, but so were a lot of other people. I don't understand the witchhunt. |
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| mr shifter |
Just a reminder that "Menchov" won a Grand Tour this year. 
Kathy.... I'm with you on this one. stay cool and wait and see. North or South....Up or Down.....Right or Wrong....Will He, Won't He.  
It's other people's worry and I'm only an Observer. 
Be Lucky |
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| Slapshot 3 |
Bit's of all three with a chunk of euphoria thrown in for good measure.
The fans will say he's finally matched his potential the naysayers there wasn't much competition, usual scenario really. However, unless the UCI and CAS have real evidence they will not extend the ban and at a push CAS could overturn the Italian ban....interesting times ahead. Wonder what's the odds of protests at this week during the worlds |
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| Enchantress |
I tend to agree with this view. One doesn't get to be an elite, world-class sportsman or sportswoman without having supreme confidence and will power. So I'm not sure how anyone can be surprised that such an athlete, coming off a significant victory, would express confidence in even greater achievements. All of that said - the tour is a different level and nobody at this moment has an answer to Contador - not even the hog and dopestrong with their antics and attempts at sabotaging AC. I enjoy Valverde's cycling performances and his style, but I'd rate him as probably 4th or 5th best in next year's tour behind Contador, Schleck Jr., and Dopestrong who will surely have his minions doing tons of work. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Re: Delusional, stupid or clairvoyant?
If he has nothing to hide then why not put the alleged blood bags from OP up for DNA testing? He's being protected because he is another Spanish golden boy and no one ever shoots the goose that lays the golden eggs. The Spanish are treating Piti the same way as the UCI has treated Armstrong since 1999. |
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| annesn |
Oh boy, this gives me the deja vu vision of the "leveled playing field" in the old days!!
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| Bartali |
Re: Delusional, stupid or clairvoyant?
Surely it comes down to a choice of two things. Either you believe CONI have fabricated evidence that doesn't exist - in which case you have to wonder why? Or, you believe the Spanish Authorities have done everything they can to put the lid on this. Not a witchhunt for me, but I find it difficult to see why CONI would make it all up whereas IMO it is clear that the Spanish have had no interest in seeing OP go anywhere. There is absolutely no reason why the Spanish Authorities couldn't share the blood analysis with CONI (if CONI really don't have it) - then wewould know for sure. The fact that they may still pursue Furentes is not a valid reason for not sharing the evidence. |
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| kathy |
MJM, he doesn't have the bloodbags, so he can't put them up for testing.
Bartali, I do believe there is some bluff on CONI's part. After all, they got Basso to confess without concrete evidence. It seems Valverde is made of sterner stuff. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
He isn't pushing for them to be tested either. Why not come out, give the DNA test and push for the suspected blood bags to be tested? He gives every impression of a man with a lot to hide.
Sterner stuff - or rather he knows he is protected? As we said - he might want to race the Giro but that doesn't mean that he will. He's no Lance and his power is limited to Spain. BTW - what on earth makes you think that the Spanish press is in anyway objective when it comes to reporting on Spanish doping? Come on, be serious. Good job he isn't Italian, German or French because he'd be on a two year holiday by now if he was. That said Spain has always been a 'safe haven' for various dodgy characters over the years. Goes to show nothing much changes. |
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| Me, a fan? |
I jokingly took the most extreme spread available and put all my marbles in that basket. Taking a shot at Valverde and Evans. Not to be taken too seriously. I do believe, however, that the best riders are in their best form for the TDF. The Tour is the King GT. Ask any rider which one they would rather win. Gurantee an overwhelming majority would choose the Tour. Maybe even an Italian or two. |
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| HuwB |
Would have served his time by now. If he were Italian, he would be joining CONI as a "technical Adviser". If he were German, he would be writing his memoirs and riding for Whirlpool. If he were French he would have been invited to re-open the prison on Devil's Island. 
I don't see Valverde as the scapegoat for OP, Kathy, just as a target to re-dress the balance, as far as the Italians are concerned. All the OP scapegoats were either Italian or German. The Spanish riders were blessed with the right nationality. |
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| SlowRower |
My take on this is influenced by firstly recalling my Rule #1, namely that anyone competitive in a GT must be doping because a) the impact of doping is vast, given physical demands of a GT and b) it's easy to dope effectively.
Therefore, Valverde has much to hide, so he's not going to be offering to undergo testing to rule him out of OP because any such testing will rule him in. As the rules stand at the moment, the burden of proof is with the accuser (I'll leave it to better philosophers than me to argue whether this is justified in cycling, but that's how it is at present) so Valverde keeps his head down and keeps on riding where he's not banned. If CONI genuinely don't have any evidence then Valverde could presumably take them to court in Italy and get the decision overturned. If he doesn't do this, then we can draw our own conclusions as to whether or not CONI are bluffing. As to why Valverde is picked on as opposed to other equally pickonable, this is simply another example of the inconsistency that pretty much everyone applies to doping. If all riders were hit with the strongest sanctions suggested for at least one rider, then there wouldn't be any riders eligible to ride (or even walk the streets this side of the 22nd century). Conversely, if all riders were treated with equal consistency at the weaker end of the scale then everyone would be happy with a 2 year ban for riders busted in accordance with the applicable rules and then welcomed back at the end of the ban. Valverde could be classed as being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as the only Spaniard "picked on" by CONI, but conversely, he's in the right place at the right time by being Spanish rather than French. I guess "personal preference" is a key driver of how we perceive his situation... |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Valverde is symptomatic of the Spanish doping culture and the institutional protection of dopers. That is the problem. He is the poster boy for a corrupt system. If he were British he would be a candidate for sports personality of the year and there would be countless articles explaining that he is just a bit scatty, either that or he is young and immature and doesn't always think before injecting. |
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| SlowRower |
Except if he changed his name to Dwayne Chambers and sang like a canary. Maybe DC should take up Spanish nationality. |
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| Bartali |
You may be right, but I struggle to buy in to that argument. Surely any half decent lawyer just pops along to CONI and says that their analysis is de facto not the OP analysis. CONI wouldn't have a leg to stand on ... surely?? Which leads me to think that it is Valverde and 'Spain' that have something to hide. As to being given a hard time I think Don Alejandro actually gets off very lightly - perhaps because many believe he has been relatively clean since OP broke. Personally I like him as a rider (like DDL) and know little about any other aspect of his life. |
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| SlowRower |
Presumably though it's not Valverde's treatment in an absolute sense that's the issue, rather it's the inconsistency of his treatment against others in an apparently identical position that seem odd.
Does this mean that there is a level of doping that is acceptable?
In a perverse way, I have more respect for people who dope "properly" (i.e. ruthless, systematically, effectively and efficiently) than people who faff about in a half-arsed fashion. Proper and half-arsed doping are both wrong and if you're going to break the rules you might as well do it to the best of your ability, or better still, the best of an expert's ability. |
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| HuwB |
An interesting overview of the situation from......er......VeloNews. 
http://www.velonews.com/article/9...uture-far-from-certain-for-vuelta |
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| Slapshot 3 |
Amazing....I don't think I read the name Armstrong in that article.... you sure it was velonews mate??? |
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| Biosphere |
For me it is an absolute thing. He's been blatantly caught in OP but has got away with it. That's not right irrespective of what happened to Basso and Ulrich. This year he's been banned by CONI on the grounds of what I'll presume is non falsified evidence (the bags don't need to go anywhere - a DNA profile can be emailed) and the UCI/WADA are trying to get CAS to implement a worldwide ban on the same basis. He's now gone on to win a GT when he really shouldn't have been competing (unless he was making his return like Basso) so I don't see how it can be argued that's having a hard time or is being witch hunted. On the contrary he's a protected rider (to the extent that the UCI/WADA are also taking action against his national federation for not taking action). In fairness to the UCI they also went after him in 2007 but failed due to the evidence being kept under Spanish lock and key. He probably is a nice guy with his family. When I've seen him race in person, I was immediately struck his elegance and fluidity. He belongs on a bike. However . . . . . |
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| Enchantress |
Regardless of the rather significant legal issues and potential broadening of his ban....
Does anyone truly think he could win the TDF next year? Anyone? |
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| SlowRower |
No, but from his perspective, a bit of positive thinking will only help him maintain motivation through the off-season. | ||||||||
| Bartali |
Depends on the parcours ... and whether they have time bonuses. But I think it highly unlikely. Still ... who would have thought Evans, Menchov and Sastre would habe had the mare they had this year? Take away Bertie for whatever reason and who knows? |
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| Enchantress |
I guess I view as an issue of 1 - there's a good chance he won't even be allowed to participate and 2 - even if he did, he's unlikely to win. Besides, we all know that Lance is working on the design for next year's TDF even as we speak 
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| Me, a fan? |
funny how it so often leads in this direction. But what is an ideal course for Lance? Lots of wind and corners? Less than 5k of total ITT's and 150k's of TTT? No climbs longer that 6k and no gradients greater than 6%? 30 second time bonuses for the oldest bastard to cross the finish line? 
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| Mrs John Murphy |
21 40km TTT stages then? Highest point of the race a motorway bridge in Belgium. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
.......as long as its a long shallow bridge with a nice new tarmac covering.......
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| Mrs John Murphy |
With the crowds kept at a suitable distance to stop any French 'attacks'. Shiti Piti finds a new safe haven. I am amazed that he hasn't asked to move into the Spanish Embassy to be safe from arrest. Valverde stays in Swiss hotel, avoids Italian raid MENDRISIO, Switzerland (AP)—Alejandro Valverde and his Spanish road race teammates have checked into a Swiss hotel, avoiding possible raids by Italian authorities during the cycling world championships. The Spanish cycling federation said Thursday that its elite men’s team was now staying at the five-star Eden hotel on the banks of Lake Lugano to prepare for its gold medal race Sunday. The rest of Spain’s worlds team is staying nearby across the border in Italy, where Valverde is the subject of a doping investigation. The 29-year-old rider is currently banned from competing in Italy until May 2011 by the national Olympic committee (CONI), though he is allowed to train and stay there. Valverde is challenging the ban at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which expects to hear the case in October. CONI believes a blood sample given by Valverde in Italy last year matches DNA from evidence seized in 2006 during the Operation Puerto investigation into an alleged blood-doping ring centered in Madrid. Valverde argues that the Olympic body has no jurisdiction to rule on his case, or use evidence from Spain. After winning the classic Spanish Vuelta stage race last Sunday, Valverde will chase a fourth worlds medal Sunday. He has two silvers and a bronze since 2003. Spain’s nine-man road race team includes Olympic champion Samuel Sanchez and Oscar Freire, who is seeking a record fourth world title. |
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| levi |
bump | ||||||||