| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| Enchantress |
Contador vo2max?It looks like the eyebrows have been raised by Contador for his mountain performances.Writing an opinion piece in Le Monde, Greg Lemond noted: "Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport." I'm not sure if Lemond's math is exact, but I am pretty certain nobody has had a figure that high - at least in cycling. i think Indurain was around 90 or so in his prime. Even pharmstrong had a value of around the mid-80's if I recall. Not to mention Contador's vam surpassed that of Mr. 60% himself as well as Liestrong. Then again, I think Contador passed that too on last year's ride up the Angliru in the Vuelta - vam = 1900+ on that climb. And all this was already out there before today's shocker. I mean, contador beating cancellera? And saying he took it easy over the last few km's? I mean contador has been at the front of the climbs, hammering his rivals while cancellera has been sitting in the grupetto on most of the climbs. Yet contador beats Fab easily? If that isn't extraterrestrial then I don't know what is. So is he going to get busted? Will it be another post-tour bust like "ROID" Landis? Will there be a doping scandal in the making here? Oh yeah, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster 
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| Beasley |
One the usefulness of vo2 max, for those interested (&/or with Athens access):
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise Vol. 32(12) Dec. 2002, pps. 2079-2084 Lucia A (et. al.) Inverse relationship between VO2max and economy/efficiency in world-class cyclists. Beyong the conclusion, goes well above my head, but might make sense to some. More user friendly alternative: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2...t-cycling-in-mountains-apart.html Contador was asked, but refused to comment. |
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| kathy |
Actually, Contador didn't say he took it easy at the end of the TT. He said he took it easy on the last few km of the previous stage in order to preserve some energy for the TT. | ||||||
| Enchantress |
Yes, the previous stage where he put 2+ minutes into everyone not named Schleck. |
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| SlowRower |
I like the way the the estimated VO2 max is quoted with a decimal place. There must be a whole raft of assumptions underlying the calculations, so making a "point" estimate of such precision seems a tad un-necessary.
So, LeMond in implicitly stating that Bertie is doping? Who'd have thought that?
More interesting questions are: 1) How much of Bertie's performance is dope related and how much is naturally powered? (and likewise for the Schlecks). 2) How much has Bertie's implied VO2 max changed since 2007 based on climbing performance and is this consistent with the observed improvement in his TT performances? |
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| HuwB |
Some doubt about LeMond's calculations, now. He may have pulled a "Coyle". 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/c...s-climbing-credibility-questioned Enchanted by that first post, btw!
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| Slapshot 3 |
Greg questioning someone else that rides a Trek....... |
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| SlowRower |
Treks are very light and have a responsive, dynamic ride though. This could explain Bertie's performances.
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| Slapshot 3 |
Don't want to get into the semantics of this really. Unless every rider has a power meter strapped on to the bike how can anyone say with certainty what power numbers were being generated hence implied Vo2 max. If "pundits" and gobshites whatever you want to call them want to use science then get it right instead of using implication and random numbers to create a story. |
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| SlowRower |
Even if the 99.5 figure is correct, it doesn't prove that Bertie was doping, as there's no analysis provided of the range of VO2 maxes for elite athletes known to be clean, so we can't work out the probability of 99.5 occurring naturally. (Logic dictates that Bertie along with the Schlecks and many others are doped to the eyeballs, but elite athletes are strange things, noted for achieving what strikes normal mortals as impossible.) What would be very interesting would be put the top guys on a static bike to measure their power output accurately and their oxygen consumption directly and for the results to be published. (The testing happens routinely, just in private though.) Porcine aviation come to mind here though.
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| Jackov |
ignore my post | ||||||
| mayofan |
you dont need dodgy sums to prove that AC is doped to his eyeballs. | ||||||
| The Lemondheads |
Exactly. I propose a hotline like for swine flu, with telephone operators asking questions from a prepared script. First question: "Are you a skinny little guy that weighs about 60kg?"; Second question: "Did you just beat Fabian Cancellara in a 40km ITT?" "Right, you're a doper." "Que? No speeki goood inglese." |
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| mazda |
Just to be clear, for people like me.
VO2 is the amount of oxygen *used* by the body in burning it's fuel ? (as opposed to, say, the amount inhaled) So what is Greg suggesting ? Bertie can burn fuel for long periods without using oxygen ? He has an oxygen cylinder implanted inside him somewhere ? I thought that, for these guys, power output over time was limited by the amount of fuel the body can mobilise rather than oxygen supply. Or am I wrong, do they always have loads of fuel available in the cells, just waiting for the oxygen to arrive ? |
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| SlowRower |
Mazda,
Very simplistically... VO2 max measures oxygen used. Fuel supply is not a problem unless you "bonk", "hit the wall" or whatever the term is for running out of gas. At this point, body fat has to be used, and this can only be converted to a useable form slowly; certainly slower than it can be consumed aerobically by even a weekend warrior. If you've eaten properly, the supply of fuel isn't an issue. On the oxygen side, the limiting factor varies between supply of oxygen to cells, the amount that the cells can actually use once its there and how efficiently they use it. For normal mortals, its how much oxygen the cells can use that is the issue and most people get more oxygen than they can use. For freakish endurance types, the cells can use more oxygen than normally supplied, so extra blood supply is good. As you can't really increase your heart volume much, the way to go is to increase your red blood cell count. I don't think there's much you can do about the efficiency of oxygen use in the cells. Wasn't this what Coyle claimed for Armstrong, to explain his pre and post cancer performance levels in the face of a broadly unchanged VO2 max? |
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| Enchantress |
Ha! Just like a famous american baseballer said. The calculations aside, it just seems completely implausible - dominating your rivals in the mountains and crushing everyone, including Canc, in the time trial. I know they are almost certainly all doped around the top of the GC, but Contadope must have the special brew! Anyone think there will be a high profile positive (re: top 5 or top 10 GC rider), either during or after the tour? |
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| Bartali |
Certainly not Bertie simply because he IS on the special brew. Same special brew that saw LA go from a good late spring classics guy to an unbeatable GT machine. Same brew that turned that other 10 stone 'weakling' (LL) into one of the best ITT men in the world.
Kloden will probably get busted for pre Astana matters. Shreks maybe .... but not Bertie. |
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| SlowRower |
Bart - If I were to lapse back into WUM mode I'd ask why the Special Brew doesn't work on Armstrong any more...
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| Boogerd_Fan |
Stupid questions deserve stupid answers: because he's proving he never doped, by dragging his ass around Euro Cycling again, but this time without any wins 
of course in hindsight we could say.... that..... oh dear. |
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| Bartali |
It does! He's 38 years old and retired for three years .... and he's mixing it with the best in the world - and you are suggesting he's not on the special brew 
Think what he'd be like on the regular brew ... 
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| SlowRower |
Bart,
I know it does; which proves that Ferrari's Finest is not, in itself, a guarantee of of success. And I'll shut up now, because I've already said too much. Careless talk costs lives, and all that.
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| HuwB |
PEDs, like swine flu, don't work well on pensioners.
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| Mrs John Murphy |
SR - it depends how you define success - I guess if he weren't on the Ferrari mix he'd be performing as well as Simoni did in the Giro or worse.
So if anything it proves that the Ferrari mix and the money to pay for it does work. I guess we'll be seeing him working overtime on the gullible punters circuit this winter to pay for the mix and the bribes for next year. Now, I am not sure you really want to go down the path marked wummery because it only leads to hole marked fanboyism. |
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| cadence |
Is this something you know or are you just talking out of your ass? |
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| Bartali |
Nice line in personal abuse you have there Cadence ...
Of course I am surmising based on he circumstantial evidence ... just like everyone else. Seems I'm upsetting a lot of LA fans tonight. I have said he's having a good race, but you just can't fight father time. Oh, and we shouldn't be too hard on Bertie, after all the Spanish are the powerhouse of world cycling. What is it now - 10 spanish victories in the last 22 TdF! |
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| joux-plane |
Very simplistically my arse! |
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| Enchantress |
More recently - they've won, assuming this year's too, the last 4 TDF's - Perreiro, Contador, Sastre, and Condator again. None of this anglo anti-doping pretense and show in spanish cycling you know
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| CapeRoadie |
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| steve21224 |
VO2 max99.5ml/kg/min? There are a few Norwegian cross country skiers that are wondering how they can get an extra 4.5 ml/kg/min to up their VO2max from 95ml/kg/min.Hopefully, the math is being checked using an accurate weight for AC, accurate time, work, etc. And, hopefully someone will be anxious to share what AC's prerace VO2max really was. My coworkers and I design and manufacture metabolic carts and test them on world class athletes. We have never seem numbers that high even when using algorithms that compensate for weights above or below the nominal weight used for determining METS. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
The question is how would we get the necessary data to get a accurate VO2 data? | ||||||
| CapeRoadie |
We won't. |
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| SlowRower |
I wonder if LeMond's calculations allowed for the amount of energy Bertie expended up the road to Verbier being produced anaerobically?
i.e. to what extent did Bertie's power output exceed his power output exactly when he's at his VO2 max? Given the psycholological issues underlying that stage, it's not unreasonable to assume that Bertie was going pretty much as fast as he could up that climb. Over a short(ish) effort, the excess power of riding to his maximum over riding "tempo" (i.e. fastest speed without resulting in build up of lactic acid, i.e. the maximum power output that can be provided from the oxygen that the muscles can utilise) would be quite significant. e.g. a balls out 10 mile TT is much faster than a 10 mile TT done at "tempo". (In the exciting world of indoor rowing, where the power each and every stroke is measured to three significant figures, over 20 minutes, an average speed differential of 4%, i.e. ~12% power would be observed between "balls out" and "tempo".) |
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| cyclingtv |
Re: VO2 max
with baited breath I'll await for your next 3wf post in 2010.. ciao |
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| SlowRower |
Re: VO2 max
He should fit in well with the rest of us in that case!
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| mayofan |
I thought it was an interesting post ctv! Good to have someone who actually knows what theyre talking about!! | ||||||
| steve21224 |
Sorry to have wasted your bandwidth, cycling tv. Nice way to treat a noobie. Not wasting my time on this site anymore. Prick! | ||||||
| mayofan |
aw come on now! id certainly like to hear more about vo2 max tests.. |
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