| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| Slapshot 3 |
Contador admits Difficulties in AstanaFrom CN
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| Enchantress |
To be a fly on the Astana team wall 
Even a novice GT watcher would have noticed the tension on that squad. When PHarmstrong got his 40 seconds early on, he made sure to say that you'd have to be an idiot to have missed that break. When AC got his first stage win (and yellow), it was obvious he was quite fired up and almost mad. I suppose the brilliant stroke in this for LA & JB is that they can, at least to naive media types, explain it all away as AC not being a team player - hence LA did not win. |
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| cadence |
Armstrong has stated publicly the best rider won, he's not tried to make any excuses. He's even gone so far to say AC could have beaten him in his prime. |
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| Boogerd_Fan |
Wouldn't you, if you had LOST. The undefeatable, became the vulnerable aged second best. The LOL to anyone but fanboys was the first 10 days worth of ballshit spoon fed to anybody who would listen about how he had the Tour in his control. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
The bitterness continues....someone want to give this guy lesson in how to be magnanimous when you lose
from Velonews
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| cadence |
I’d wager most Lance fans, at least those on this side of the pond, know little about cycling, they are not watching the sport they are rooting for a participant. If the participant is losing badly and or out of contention, so will be their interest in the race. No viewership no sponsors, no sponsors no money, so Lance is marketed…..
It was a strange tour, strangest I’ve seen, hopefully next year there will be more than one week of racing. |
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| Enchantress |
They themselves may know that but we both know that's not how it will appear in the media. I'm certain you can already here the obsequious duo of paul & phil starting off next years tour with the LA hype and how now with his own team he's out to win, etc etc. What's confusing is how PHarmstrong in one muted breath says AC could have beat him in his prime. Yet how a soon to be 39 year old PHarmstrong who is well past his prime proposes to beat AC is yet unknown to me. As for more than one week of racing, yes I agree, let's hope so. Except well, I thought it was more like one day of racing - verbier, and finito! |
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| kathy |
Quote from Alberto in As.com today - 'Lance and I are incompatible and will go our separate ways in 2010'
BTW, they played the Danish national anthem instead of the Spanish one when he stood on the podium 
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| ventoux |
Where the hell did you see a week of racing... 
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| smarauder68 |
I think Armstrong thinks he can recapture his TT magic with a full year to train up...He also reckons he was only 85 or 90% for this tour after the collabone break in the spring. I'm not saying he can beat Contador, but I think he can definately lower the gap if he remains injury free and trains just for the tour. By the end of the tour, Armstrong proved he was the 3rd strongest man in the tour. Pretty amazing considering his injury and layoff. |
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| headwind |
I think thats an overdone assessment, Ive been wrong before. He will be another year older. Time is now seriously against him. Contador is only getting stronger. Schleckette too. On top of that, levi is older. unless new firepower comes in, he wont have the team. As for this year, Kloden dragged his silly ass up everything but Ventoux. His own private pilot fish. Poor Kloden, laying the doped shadow of Ulli, to laying the the dope shadow of Lance...he must make a lot of $. This years parcours was a joke to boot. If lance ever had a chance, this was it. If the pyrenees come back with a tough string of days then he will be in trouble. At least thats what my eyes saw. He had no response to Arcalis, and even of he shores up TT some, he wont be able to do the mountains as fast remember that Contador was riding for Lance on Ventoux. Failing that, he probably would have just taken off and added minutes more to the win. Of the TTs are shroter, and the mountians bigger...lance wont make top 10 next yr. |
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| J1A2P3A4 |
+1 |
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| The Lemondheads |
Let's wait and see the parcours before we get too optimistically pessimistic about la-la's chances. I predict an opening week run entirely on flat roads with a giant mobile wind-machine travelling alongside to generate a constant cross-wind. No prologue, so yellow jersey for 1st stage awarded by alphabetic order of family name (Yukiya Arashiro mysteriously disqualified on eve of opening ceremony.) Mid-way through second week: 150km TTT after rest day. Final week and finally into the mountains for Tourmalet stage after another rest day: finish originally planned for St Marie de Campan after going over the mountain, but instead the riders will continue to descend on a new road constructed in a mine shaft under the town, descent to continue until such a point as the whole field has regrouped and Cavendish wins the stage. Transfer to Paris. |
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| Me, a fan? |
I wonder what LA is going to (or already has) tweeted about this:
http://tour-de-france.velonews.co...cle/96109/contador-rips-armstrong Much more to follow, I'm sure. Oh, here's some more! Can anybody translate all of this?: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/de...elpepidep/20090727elpepidep_2/Tes |
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| Bartali |
He's not happy ....
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| SlowRower |
I wonder why Bertie says he never had admiration for Armstrong?
I can see why he hasn't now and never will, though! |
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| Bartali |
Probably a bit lost in translation? Probably meant not since his comeback ... or something? | ||||||||
| SlowRower |
I think you're onto something here!
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| Nolte |
i hadn't noticed until they had said it on euronews this morning when looking at i think marca's front page on the press round up 
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| kathy |
Well, I could, but there's rather a lot of it! One interesting bit, Contador was asked if he believed that Brunyeel would have preferred Armstrong to win the Tour. Contador smiled and replied, 'You'd better ask Johan that question, not me!' |
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| headwind |
and more quotes from LA in the NYT:
“I probably would have done it differently,” Armstrong said of the way Contador dealt with having Armstrong come to the team this season. “If I put myself in that position, even in ’99 or 2000, when I was young and ambitious, if Indurain would have come to the team, he still would have come to the team because he’s Indurain,” he said of the five-time Tour champion Miguel Indurain of Spain. “That doesn’t mean he has to win, but he’s the leader because he’s a legend. Not that I’m a legend.” can anyone say asshole? bow before my legend...fuck you. Im curious if he had won every GT? Oh yeah NO. what a shitty snot faced little punk. At 38 youd think he was 16. |
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| joux-plane |
How many of you said that this year? Quite a few as I remember. I think if he has a team built around him and with JB at the helm he will be an even more serious contender next year. Don't think he'll beat AC but I think he'll be close. He will have had another years training and fine tuning of his TT style as well as a whole team working for him which should more than compensate for the extra year older. I also think the revenge factor will spur him on considering the animosity between him and AC. As for being magnanimous in defeat slapshot did you not listen to his interview in defeat after Verbier? How much more magnanimous can you get for a man who has not known defeat at this race for 10 years?!! No matter what LA does there seems to be always people on here who will have a go. People used to not like him because he won so easy and didn't appear to suffer. Well he suffered on this tour. People accused him of taking drugs - well can anybody honestly say there has been a more tested athlete? And all his test results are being posted online. I seriously believe he's clean. People accuse him of being arrogant - well that is true. But that's because he's a winner and he believes he's the best (and he was for a long time). Nobody will probably ever realise what guts it took for him to come back to the tour and not be the best anymore - that would really hurt someone like him. But yet he has been more magnanimous in defeat than anybody on here could have believed whether you like him or not. Finally people may scoff at his charity work and say that was used as a smokescreen for his comeback. Well it may or may not have been but the fact is that the man has generated a huge amount of worldwide interest among ordinary people and political leaders. He has earned and will earn a lot of money for his charity and raised a lot of awareness around the world. And he has come back and ridden for free in the process. Just give the man a break and begrudgingly admit that his comeback has been a success. |
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| Element12 |
Contador, eyes focus looks to the future. Armstrong, dejected, can only rue the day and look to his past.
That picture makes me laugh.
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| ventoux |
Well, I'll begrudgingly admit he did way better than I expected him to.... BUT, please don't trot out the "most tested" shite again... that's been kicked around & disproved so many times - maybe if he says it enough times (& he does seem to say it a lot, doesn't he?) enough people will believe him.... having said that, I seriously doubt that any of his adversaries are clean either.... his achievements are undoubtedly significant, but the way he's behaved towards Contador... and Simeoni... and Betty Andreau (spelling?).. has been despicable... he's a great rider, but an extremely flawed champion.... the man has an over abundance of arrogance and childish self interest.... true champions have humility and grace - he doesn't. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
mummy that boy's got my trophy.....get it back, get it for me mummy..... |
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| Bartali |
But he did have a team built around him didn't he? Fastest TTT squad and I don't remember anyone pulling for Contador. Now next year he won't have Contador in the TTT which will be a disadvantage. All his faithful lieutenants will be a year older and they are already old. He probably won't have Kloden. He no longer holds a spell over the younger riders. Basso, Sastre, Evans and Menchov will most likely put in their usual performance unlike tis year. Nibali, Andy Schleck and RK will be one year closer to their prime. CVV will not be recovering from a bad injury. The parcours is unlikely to be 'tailormade' for LA. And Contador (and Kloden) will be free to ride for themselves. Now I was one of those who said just outside the top 10 and frankly I don't feel like I misread the situation too much despite LA's good finish. He did do a good ride - I've never denied that. Top 10 would have been good. BUT, none of us could have anticipated the 40 + 4 seconds he 'stole' on the flat stages - smart riding though! We also need to remember that Kloden rode himself into the ground and wasn't that far behind. LL retired injured when there was every sign he would finish higher. And then we had the extraordinarily uncompetitive performances from Evans, Menchov and Sastre. So ... all in all a good ride and a good result for LA. On the plus side he will have another year in his legs (assuming he's not swimming and running as the radioshack press release suggested). But there is a lot that suggests it won't be as 'easy' next year. |
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| cadence |
And your anticipating that he wont gain more time next year by riding smart as well.... As long as Andy and Alberto are riding in the tour the best he can hope for is 3rd, he should quit now while he still has an excuses. |
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| inputjoe |
He shouldn't be under-estimated. He rode two GTs finishing 12th and 3rd (Did anyone do better?). If he rides the Tour next year his form could be even better, especially if he follows his more usual pre-Tour prep. Maybe not by much but probably enough to be taken very seriously by riders like Contador and Schleck.
Bart, with all due respect, you weren't close on Armstrong. There's a big difference between the podium and outside the top 10. Outside the top 10 is nothing special, Armstrong's performance was certainly not that. What he did was show he is once again a top tier GT class rider. Some around here may not want to believe it but that's what he is. |
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| cadence |
The true time difference between himself and Contador would have been greater had they not been on the same team. From my admittedly untrained eye they are not even close now in terms of ability. I've no doubt Lance will/would be competitive next year and will compete with the best that money can buy, but I think his ego is fooling him if he thinks he can win the tour again.....jmho |
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| MS |
Contador isn't doing himself any favors by saying this stuff. He's playing into Armstrong's hands and it's exactly what Armstrong wants him to do - lower himself to his level. Everyone knows Contador is now the superior rider. Everyone also knows Armstrong is the superior prick. No need to make the last point debatable. | ||||||||
| behemoth |
More quotes from LA's twitter:
Seeing these comments from AC. If I were him I'd drop this drivel and start thanking his team. w/o them, he doesn't win. hey pistolero, there is no "i" in "team". what did i say in March? Lots to learn. Restated. |
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| cadence |
Too funny...  He's like a kid.
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| Geraint |
Without Bruyneel and the access to the best stuff, Contador will not be as good. We have not seen him win without that setup around him. He might repeat the history of other ex-Disco riders who tried to dope and tested positive. All points to a more interesting next Tour. The best two riders, AC and AS against the emperor and his apprentice. |
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| SlowRower |
I don't think it's ever been objectively disproved, as in the most tested athlete being identified as as a specific person other than Armstrong. The numbers of tests undertaken by the various competent authorities aren't all published. (USADA do, and the number of tests in the TDF can be estimated from stage wins and days in yellow, but this isn't comprehensive or totally robust.) It has been demonstrated that his claim is unsubstantiated (i.e. it can't be shown the most tested athlete is Armstrong any more than it can shown that it is anyone else.) The claim is also pretty meaningless, as it is not time-bound in any case. In summary - not disproved, but still b*llocks. |
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| SlowRower |
Evans was the only one who really underperformed this year. As the other three raced seriously at the Giro they were never going to be competitive at the TDF. (Basso certainly not, obviously... )
A 2006-style Basso might be good enough to race both the Giro and the TDF competitively, but for these guys to be competitive at the TDF next year they'll have to pass by a serious attempt at the Giro. If AC and AS target the TDF then the others might go for the Giro again as it offers the best chance of a GT success for them. |
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| Boogerd_Fan |
+1 Armstrong 3rd, Wiggins 4th... it feels a bit like 1998 when Festina went home and even Boogie could top 5!!! haha |
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| Boogerd_Fan |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8170479.stm
haha armstrong bites back.... except, his point is rather mooted. Bertie had 4 mins on Schleck, examining where he won that time over Andy, would probably have contador still in first place, just by a smaller margin (i.e. only his mountain & ITT gains). What did the team do again? Ah yes.. they dragged a 38yo's ass around the course too. |
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| Enchantress |
It seems to me that Contador - in describing his relationship and view of armstrong - is merely stating what virtually any sensible cycling aficionado already guessed. Few of us need to spend weeks on a team with PHarmstrong to know that he's a colossal arse and AC is only affirming our impression of LA.
I can believe AC's comment that the TDF was harder on the team bus than on the parcours. I mean just the way he grimaced and nodded for the cameras during the TDF when asked about the team said quite a bit. That little anecdote of PHarmstrong where he compares the situation to Indurain in 99, is purely the work of an equal part megalomaniac and adolescent. *cough cough* not that he's a legend... Unlike fine wine, PHarmstrong's grapes are only getting even more sour as he gets older. On the road, where it counts, AC was by far and away the superior bike rider. The one card LA still seems to hold is his incessant media winging. |
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| grrr |
I love the way Armstrong is fighting his cause via Twitter - hardly the weapon of choice for reasoned debate.
"There's no 'I' in team" - good lord, I didn't realise anyone had ever said that and actually meant it |
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| SlowRower |
I thought Americans didn't do irony as a rule.
"No 'i' in team from Armstrong" is about as ironic as it gets. When he had the horsepower to do the deed on the bike his attitude was very effective. I'd guess when he was stuffing everyone on the bike, he probably didn't feel the need to mouth off to the team, everyone got paid well, so things must have been reasonably harmonious. Now he just sounds like an eejit. |
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| bianchigirl |
hw I saw that piece in Equipe 
Contador has been nothing but restrained and gentlemanly in his comments - said that Armstrong was a champion but he no longer admires him (who would after the last 3 weeks?), that the hardest times in the race were not on the road but in the hotel and that he had nothing else to say except to congratulate Armstrong on his third place. Who says champions have to be arrogant shits? I'm interested to know what Contador still has to learn - he's won 4 GTs by the age of 26 and has already won all 3, plus various prestigious week long stage races - and all before Armstrong had achieved anything of note in a GT at all. Plus he conducts himself with enormous good grace and charm - anyone see the incredible scenes in Madrid & Pinto? There's a champion with real appeal not a sad dried up jealous old has been. As for more competitive next year (when Andy Schlek is dragging him up the climbs) Contador knows he can stay with the Radioshack (hahahahahaha - such prestige) team's hottest pace and outkick Schleklet with ease. He has nothing to fear from Armstrong - all he has to do is sit on his wheel and then ride off it. Apologies for long post but have infrequent wifi access so am making the most of it 
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| SlowRower |
Presumably wifi access and Dad on childcare duties...
You've been sadly missed during the TDF. MJM is largely AWOL at the moment and something approaching unanimity has broken out. 
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| Boogerd_Fan |
There is 1 "i" in Team Radioshack though
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| Enchantress |
There may as well be nothing but an "I" in radioshack with Emperor PHarmstrong at the controls. Sad but true - I can already hear the spin that Paul, Phil, and the rest of the anglophile media will put on next year's race. |
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| Geraint |
Im already fed up with Paul/Phil and this is only Lance's first tour back. | ||||||||
| billgull |
You're right Lance! There is no "I" in TEAM! But remember just one very
important thing -- there is an "U" in SUCK! |
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| SAP |
It would be interesting to hear what the other Astanas have to say about Lance. He seems to have friends and supporters in the peloton, no? Or is it that Alberto is just speaking out about Lance and the others are keeping their opinions to themselves? | ||||||||
| mayofan |
never black and white is it? yes LA has quite a few friends in the peloton, and quite a few in his team.. | ||||||||
| fede40 |
is that because he uses Royal We?
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| Bartali |
Friends? Loyal employees? Dependent salary men? The awe inspired? The intimidated? The deluded? Those that admire his achievements? Hard to get a complete picture from the outside as to who is 'actually' his friend? Horner was very critical until he took the Armstrong shilling. Franck Shrek looked to be helping LA on occasions, but was that for ulterior reasons. Basso is probably a bit intimidated by the man but 'loves' him too because of the kind words said when his mother was dying. LA has been very successful - no doubt about that - and people like being around and part of that success .... especially if they are being paid huge amounts of money at the same time. Same in any walk of life until it all starts to unfold. Champion boxers being a prime example ... |
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| SlowRower |
Here's an interesting article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/..._sport/cycling/article6729344.ece I think the comparison to Tony Blair is a little harsh, even given Armstrong's "rap sheet".
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| Bartali |
Journalism at its worse ...
He states "I wrote another column, about the Armstrong-Contador dynamic, in which, in closing, I noted that there was so much we would like to ask Armstrong but, because he wouldn’t give The Times an interview, we would never get any answers." Then publishes this piece which raises none of the questions or answers! 59 minutes talking to LA and nothing to report other than he was charming. Unbelievable! |
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| SlowRower |
That was the point of the article though, wasn't it?
How a fairly cycnical journo approached with his prepared questions and then fell victim to the charm offensive. |
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| Bartali |
But he hasn't really reported anything the man said ... just that he was charming. Waste of time .. he could have simply said "LA was charming", then actually told the reader something else! This is yet another example of how our media talk down to us. Not reportage, just an opinion repeated again and again and again. The Times should be dispelling myths - all myths - by reporting facts not this. | ||||||||
| Superbagneres |
It reads as if the journo allowed himself to be talked at for an hour by Armstrong, and then left the room realising he hadn't got anything at all so had to write this. | ||||||||
| SlowRower |
The doping issue isn't going to be resolved by talking to Armstrong though, is it?
"Lance, did you take PEDs?" "No. Now f-off!" Why do you say "an opinion repeated again and again and again"? The writer quite clearly states that he's changed his mind recently about whether Armstrong's comeback is good or bad. (Previously bad; now good, which probably doesn't do him any favours in these parts!) He also gives a pro and anti Armstrong slant to a number of the points he raises. I'd say it's a pretty balanced article, albeit not addressing key issues, but as per my opening comment, interviewing Armstrong on such matters is not going to get anyone very far. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Fair and balanced I presume because you agree with it. It wouldn't have been fair and balanced if he hadn't been suckered in by Sir Lie-a-lot. | ||||||||
| Bartali |
Opinion? Because all its all his opinions about LA. Not LA's opinions or factual reportibg as to what the man had to say for himself. I have no objection to the balance, but what questions did he ask and what were the answers?
I've just reread it and it boils down to this ... I asked Armstrong if defeat had, indeed, done more for his popularity than all those victories and he took that as an accepted part of the deal. “It’s always been the case,” he said. “When I rode with Cedric Vasseur in 2000-01, he said: ‘They’re not going to like you. They don’t like the guy who wins every year.’ I said: ‘Well, that’s going to be a problem.’” And Armstrong claims he has simply mellowed Hardly good output for 59 minutes ... SB calls it right. |
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| SlowRower |
Here are a few quotes: "Here he is, so persuasive, so charismatic, and yet you are left believing that this is actually just all part of his new agenda." "For Armstrong-watchers, those words (the mass interview after getting stuffed by Bertie at Verbier) were astonishing. As a statement of humility, it could hardly have been laced together any better, a perfectly-worded invitation to the 70 per cent anti-Lance majority to switch sides. The pro-Lance camp would argue that that interview was completely genuine. The other side would suspect that he was quickly and intelligently re-positioning himself." "...And then, a few days later, and totally out of the blue, PR Mark was on the phone to organise our meeting. Yet is it simply as straight-forward as that? Hard to believe. Was all that chumminess at the end of our interview a genuine case of Armstrong warming to my lovable personality? Hmm." I'll admit that it stops some way short of demanding Armstrong be burnt at the stake, but it's hardly exactly pure Lancophancy is it? It might well be crap journalism for saying nothing of substance. I rarely read anything more demanding than Viz, so can't really comment on this. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You're on the slippery slope of wummery again - either that or your 'I heart Lance' pants are showing.
To be fair people who have had good media training are very good at suckering people in. For example I once spoke to a politician who was notoriously corrupt and responsible for the deaths of a large number of people. Now, he gave me a very blah blah bullshit answer to a direct question about corruption and the deaths, but his way of delivering the answer can best be described as 'hypnotic' and for about 5 seconds until I snapped out of it I found myself thinking 'maybe he is right'. So I can well understand how someone like Liestrong with his Nike media training can 'flummox' the most hardened of journalists. |
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| mayofan |
impossible to tell whether his teammates genuinely like him or not, some of them certainly seem to, but the relationship is always going to be coloured by the fact that theyre in effect working for him. But from what Ive seen he certainly has good relationships with a number of riders in the peloton..basso definitely, michael rogers, Dave Zabriskie and other Garmin riders, including Wiggins, Cav, Voigt... I wont speculate as to why those riders have a relationship with LA (as to do so will certainly provoke some on here, and none of us has any idea at the end of the day), but they certainly do have good relationships with him... |
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| Bartali |
Basso for reasons already discussed. The others mostly anglophiles? (Voigt being an honory anglophile) Probably pretty natural to have strong relationships with those with a common language etc. | ||||||||
| Slapshot 3 |
Just dropped this on the comments..
bet it never see's the light of day..... |
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| Enchantress |
Regarding MJM's comments: I think that is the nature of it. That is to say, that even though a person's actions and beliefs may be heinous or backwards or atrocious that does not preclude them from being quite charming, charismatic, inspiring and eveb 'likable' in certain settings. Especially those settings which are preordained and premeditated such as an interview.
Many utterly despicable American politicians for instance, are quite well liked in media circles and in small settings - this despite their obviously horrible deeds. I think that's how it works with LA. In the photo ops and setups, such as the interview, he says all the right things. Caught spontaneously and without his script, he's far more truthful and revealing in his thoughts/actions. We've certainly seen that from him in the TDF through the years. |
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| SlowRower |
Agreed. Have you ever noticed that when you meet someone famous / infamous in person they are almost always much shorter than you imagined them? Human nature being as it is, we tend to assume that physical stature is related to the person's image. This is particularly true of cricketers (except Joel Garner who didn't give me an autograph in 1980 because I only reached up to his kneecaps. )
I'll bet "Big George" Hincapie is little more than 5 foot tall in reality. |
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| grrr |
To be fair for the journalist, he's making no bones about the fact that he's been suckered by Armstrong. To me the article is pretty much an apology for being taken in rather than simply an article saying 'LA is really nice'. Although journalists are paid to do so, it is very hard to ask difficult questions when face to face with someone being outwardly very nice to you. It's how good sales people operate and LA is a good salesperson. |
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| Hommedesbois |
Cédric Vasseur : "Armstrong ne m'a pas versé ma prime de victoire sur le Tour 2000. Pour lui, cela doit correspondre à une demi-journée de salaire ! Je trouve cela mesquin." (La France Cycliste - 01/03/2002)
"When I rode with Cedric Vasseur......." |
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| Bartali |
Saw him while I was in the Pyrenees. Not a big bloke at all. Bigger than 5 foot, but skinny ... skinnier than I imagined. Following the LA way - I was out training while he was still in bed! Hommedesbois - English please? I tried a google translation and it looked interesting, but not good enough for me to understand. |
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| Hommedesbois |
Sorry ...
Vasseur "Armstrong hasn't paid me my win bonus for the 2000 Tour de France. For him that must equal half a day's pay! I find that mean" (or petty, or mean-spirited). I don't know if CV has been paid yet, but doubt it. |
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| Boogerd_Fan |
but there is no "i" in team lol... |
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| mayofan |
absolutely, but all the same if he was that bad he wouldnt be able to maintain relationships in such a stressed environment. Of course hes a tosser sometimes, but Id imagine hes occasionally a decent guy. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
yup...never saw the light of day!!! |
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| Hommedesbois |
I think he repeatedly demonstrates that he is unable to maintain relationships - with 'teammates', girlfriends, the press, the French ...everyone except the Hog. He is the one who creates the stressed environment and because it is always around him he thinks it is the norm. |
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| mayofan |
Not really. In anyones life there are relationships that dont work out, that doesnt prove an inability to maintain relationships. On the other hand the relationships he has maintained directly disprove it. JB is one obvious one, his mother, his ex-wife, Chris Carmichael, LL, jim ochowizc, basso, GH, ekimov etc etc. There are a lot of people with whom LA has lasting relationships with. So basically youre wrong when you say "everyone except the hog". Of course hes an abrasive character, and a bully, so there are a number of people hes had high profile bust ups with, noones disputing that...but he clearly has maintained a fair few relationships. To say anything else is a lie. |
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| Hommedesbois |
I think it is called 'Omerta'
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| Mrs John Murphy |
In almost all of those relationships they are dependent relationships - and all of which are political/professional relationships rather than human relationships borne of any natural affinity.
When a 'friend' has served his purpose and is no longer any use then he is expunged from history. Riders like Ekimov are his friends because they are subservient to him and they do his bidding - ie spitting on Simeoni. It is a Master-Gimp relationship. If of course you consider such relationships to be normal then that perhaps says more about you than it does about us. So, no, Hommedesbois is right and you are wrong on this point Mayo. |
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| mayofan |
knew it was only a matter of time before you weighed in mjm!
so how does LA's mom, his exwife, or riders from other teams play in to your fantasy where LA is some kind of puppet master none of these relationships are professional and its a stretch to define them as political. Love the little personal dig too mrs, its great how you can have a discussion without insulting people. Your online persona is about as much fun as you portray LA to be. Hommedesbois has some valid points but was wrong when he stated that he cant maintain a relationship with anyone but the hog. Youre changing the argument completely, shifting the focus to the reason LA has maintained relationships, and ergo actually ceding that he has maintained relationships. Different argument. |
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| SlowRower |
I'd check your bed for a horse's head tonight, Mayo...
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| Mrs John Murphy |
I don't know Mayo or Lanco would perhaps be better. I was wondering why it too you so long to defend Lancey's honour.
He is able to maintain a relationship with his mother (big wow) and his ex-wife who I assume he pays divorce money too. Remember he has 'the money and the lawyers' so I am sure that if she wants to keep seeing the kids etc then she had better stay sweet. So two bullshit examples put forward by you disproved. Hincapie is a long standing professional relationship, plus they have a mutual interest in doping. Hincapie is looking for a job for next year so it makes perfect sense to suck up to his former boss. If Hincapie were no use then he would be kicked out just like Brajkovic was after the Giro. Basically his only human relationship is with his mother. His relationship with JB is simply because JB knows where the skeletons are buried, so again it is just a professional relationship. His 'relationships' are about power not about human interaction. Your argument is a little bit like saying that a slave owner has a relationship with his slaves, or a kidnapper has a relationship with his victim. SR - you gimping or wumming tonight? |
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| mayofan |
Oh wow...witty!! A career in stand up awaits if professional WUM doesnt pan out! Lanco? is that a soft c or a hard c? I guess either way it rhymes with half of my login...clever!! You know me...i exist to defend "lancey" (see now in confused, i thought it was lanco?????...obviously you have a stable full of pet names for him) and his honour... Ok so were discounting his mother and his ex wife...cos you know, no man has ever had a bad relationship with his mother or ex wife... Mick Rogers? Ivan Basso? Dave Zabriskie? Brad Wiggins? I await the barrage of insults from MJM. Im not sure why though...I dont think LA's a nice person, I dont think hes clean or ever has been, I hate some of his actions, I dont think his return is particularly good for cycling.. But i refuse to acknowledge the ridiculous belief of some on this forum that he is the very reincarnation of the devil. Which is why MJM thinks im a fanboy... Youre a fanatic MJM. I can only hope you dont approach all areas of your life with a similar outlook. |
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| SlowRower |
Just wondering whether you know all this about Armstrong's personal relationships or are just guessing. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
The Ny Velocity guys must be reading this thread....
http://nyvelocity.com/content/toto/2009/toto-turns-146 |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Grrrrrrrh, you beat me to it SR, I was just about to go through this thread to see how many posts actually referred to the original subject and call everyone a hypocrit for wumming! And also, how many of us actually have or had a relationship with Armstrong that we can actually comment on what the guy is like!
Doess anyone know what Contador, Schleks, Evans, Sastre, Hushovd, Pozzato.... ad infinitum are actually like. They may be very nice guys, as I have been told by people who have met about some of them and apart from actually shaking hands with Sastre last year on the Champs Elysee - so that automatically makes him a nice guy - who knows what they are like................
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| Mrs John Murphy |
SR - it's as much guess work as anything that you or Lance apologists put forward. You guess that Lancey is really misunderstood and has loads of great friends who he romps with in the hot-tub. I on the otherhand guess that most people wouldn't piss on Armstrong if he were on fire and only pretend to like him since it is easier to pretend to be nice than it is to speak out and risk being gobbed on by Pozzato and Ekimov.
LOL - Lanco you have got your knickers in a twist. See that photo of Dertie and Vino. Is that an example of them having a 'relationship'? No, it is just business. If Dertie were of no use to Vino then Vino wouldn't have invited him. If Vino weren't Dertie's ultimate boss do you think Dertie would have gone? Of course not. If you think that any of these relationships are about anything other than power and business then you are really really naive. If you are this naive in real life then I think you probably need a carer to keep you out of trouble and stop you getting into any cars with people offering to show you some puppies. As for insults - you were the one who started getting stroppy. If you can't handle it then don't try to throw your weight around. |
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| SlowRower |
Can't argue with that. |
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| mayofan |
Im not naive MJM, youre just incredibly, incredibly cynical.
thats a fairly gloomy outlook of life MJM. I dont know if youre involved in sports at any level, but I am, and I can guarantee you that the vast majority of relationships are purely personal. Obviously as you reach the elite echelons of any sport it becomes way more ruthless, but to think that there are no personal relationships in pro sports...NONE...thats incredibly, unbelievably cynical. Its great whenever you cant win an argument you accuse me of getting stroppy, or not being able to handle it. Guess you must just be used to people not replying for fear of being berated? By the way im noit claiming to have won any argument, its just that at best were both guessing here, and youre the only one claiming absolutes. p.s: lancey-poos, radioshit, lanco, contadope, liestrong, pharmstrong, dertie, etc etc are all incredibly lame attemplts at humour. I just though id let you know that... |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Hey MJM sounds just like what people are accusing Armstrong of being like
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Cynical but right. This is the real world - not fucking High School Musical.
And yes I know plenty about life at elite level sports thanks, no doubt more than you ever will. You're the one who complained about personal insults, not me and you were the one who started being stroppy before I entered this conversation. So decide what you want. Thanks for letting me know about your opinion, and if I cared about it I am sure I would take on board your comments. But since I don't I won't be taking any notice. Maybe humour is lame, but they're better than your attempt at stringing together a coherent argument. So I'll work on my comedy and you can work at developing some logical arguments and dealing with the real work. We'll see who hits paydirt first. You choose to be a fanboy and I choose to be cynical. MJ - Maybe except unlike Lance I don't want to fuck my mother. |
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| SlowRower |
HSM is real isn't it? Lance not winning and finding out that Troy and Gabrielle are fictional in the same week would be too much to take. |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Ah, so that's why you have a problem with Armstrong - you're both too alike! |
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| mayofan |
feel free not to reply to my comments in future so!
I seem to recall you calling out someone for mentioning that they have an impressive c.v...this is pretty much the same thing. Either you tell us exactly what your experience is at elite sports or you shut the fuck up. If you bring that into an argument you either specify or everyone can assume your full of shit. Lame attempts at humour are fine MJM...incessantly repeating them is just boring..and it makes you sound dull. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You were the one who was banging on about being involved in sports - as if this some how gave you a greater insight into elite sports and relationships with in them. You were the one who made this a game of 'who the fuck are you?' not me. If you don't like it then don't bring it up. You can't have it both ways.
Dull and boring? Have you ever read through one of your own posts? Like I say, if I cared about you being bored I would change my posting style - but as you can see I haven't. MJ - No. I dislike everyone equally. To be honest you have to be impressed that Liestrong has managed to make the second biggest junkie in the peloton into a victim and a nice guy. Being slagged off by Lance has done wonders for Dertie's reputation. |
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| mayofan |
I never ever claimed to know more about sport than you. I mentioned that in my experience there are a lot of personal relationships in sports. Never claimed to have been involved at an elite level. Never. Youre the one who made it about experience at elite level, and youre the one who previously attacked a poster on this site for claiming to have an impressive c.v.. rank hypocrisy on your part. I can assume from your post that you were talking absolute bollocks then. Either that or tell us how great you are, seeing as you claimed to know more than I ever would about elite sports.(how could you possibly know this??) Your claim was incredibly arrogant, and I can only assume untruthful. I dont expect you to reveal what your experience, mostly because I suspect you dont have any, but also because this is an internet forum and you dont have to. But you should admit you were wrong for making a claim like that, and admit that youre a hypocrite. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Go back and read what you wrote. If anyone is being a hypocrite it is you.
You claimed that your involvement in sport at whatever level gave you a superior insight into relationships in sport than my own. You were the one who used your involvement as a crutch to support your own argument. If that isn't what you meant then you should have been more clear. Perhaps you should devote more time to writing clearly. You are pissed off because you threw it out there as a fig-leaf of legitimacy and I've said so what. To be honest as I have said before I don't think 'experience' counts for anything. But you obviously think it does. You can post your cv if you like but I really don't give a shit. You can assume what you like about me. The fact is that you were the one who introduced experience into this argument as somehow giving you more insight. Your argument not mine. Perhaps you should try logic instead of experience as something to base your argument on. |
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| mayofan |
Youre such a spoofer MJM. What I said was that in my experience there are a lot of personal relationships in sport. Which is absolutely true. I also admitted i hadnt been involved at an elite level so i didnt know was that the case there.
The you came along and said you knew more about elite sports than i ever would. One of us is being arrogant: ill give you a clue, its not me. you made a claim that youre now unwilling to substantiate: youre talking bollocks.
hmm...I didnt ask "do you know anything about life at elite sports level?", i didnt claim that i did. I think when you read those posts youll realise that you didnt even properly read what id written, and that your post makes you sound like an arrogant, egotistical wanker...and just a little bit thick. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Oh dear. Your hormones are up.
You were the one who introduced your involvement in sport as somehow giving you greater insight into sport than me. You could 'guarantee' that you know what relationships are like in sport and at the elite level based on your own involvement in sport. If this isn't what you meant then you should have written more clearly. This only matters to you because you think experience gives you insight. Unlike you I am not so arrogant or so thick that I think that involvement in any sport gives you anymore insight than anyone else. I've said all along that it is as much guess work on my part as it is guess work on your part. You use your experience of sports to validate your guess work, I don't. Perhaps you ought to try devote a little more time to expressing your thoughts in a more logical and coherent manner. |
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| mayofan |
clear enough??
this quote is just gonna keep biting you in the ass MJM. It ranks as one of the most cringeworthy things ive read. making a fool out of yourself. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Not really. If it's biting anyone on the arse its you. You are the one who tried to make into a 'who the fuck are you' debate and you are pissed off because it was called. If anything is cringeworthy its you throwing a teenage hissy fit.
Lets just look at what you wrote again
Why bring your involvement in sports into a debate about elite level sports? It is totally irrelevant. Just as my involvement is totally irrelevant in this debate as I have said all along. You introduced your involvement and then made an assumption that there had to be personal relationships at the elite level because there were personal relationships at lower levels. You predicated your argument on your experience. You made a flawed leap of logic and tried to support it with 'I'm experienced in sports and you aren't.' In the quote you've also asked (effectively) if I was involved in sports at any level to which I responded and to which you've got all upset about. Like I say, practice formulating some logical arguments that aren't based on personal experience and you might get somewhere. |
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| mayofan |
This is embarassing. every time i say something about you you just copy it. Its like being in junior infants.
I never said you werent experienced in sports. And I dont think its a leap at all, anyone whos participating at an elite level has participated at a lower level, and therefore probably has personal relationships from that lower level at least. I dont know, but I also find it unlikely that all personal relationships dissolve once sport becomes professional..but i dont know. All of our arguments are based on personal experience. Your arguments are full of bitterness and cynicism. Im guessing that didnt come out of fresh air. Why would you bring your own involvement in sports at an "elite level" as you claimed into an argument if you think its irrelevant. I mentioned my involvement in sports, admittedly at an ameteur level, as i think its relevant. Also how could it possibly be irrelevant if you do have experience at an elite level? Surely you would actually know if you were involved???????? If you dont you shouldnt have said anything, as you think its irrelevant If you do then you would know whether or not there are personal relationships. I actually cant believe you just said personal experience isnt relevant. Of course it is...in any argument about anything. Its pretty much the most relevant thing. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
Just a tuppence worth,
I've coached at a pretty high level within Ice Hockey and the relevant relationships with your players has to be all business especially when you're coaching kids. There are no other relationships involved, I have appointed team managers to do that for me, I don't get involved with whining parents and whingy spouses, that's someone elses job, my job is get the best out of the players. At the upper ends of the sport the coach is king, it's his say so, managers do what he tells them to and thats it. Senior players are different because to an extent you can interact on personal levels but in nearly all cases one major element is missing, MONEY. As soon as you introduce money personal level relationships in sport go out the window. I was hired to coach a senior team but quit within 4 weeks because the pressures at that level didn't allow me to do my job properly, commensurate with what I was being paid, it wasn't enough for me to do the shit the club wanted, maybe I have too many morals. Where does this equate to cycling, well simple really. If you are a pro sportsman in any sport your job is earn as much money in as short a time as possible because your time at the very elite level is really quite short. That means you have to decide whether you have a strong enough set of morals to stand up for yourself or whether you'll take the shilling and prostitute yourself to whatever demands the moneyman makes. Very few have the ability to hold the moral ground! So decide what camp you're in, the moral side or whether you're willing to hawk your ass for the cash!! |
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