| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| HuwB |
Armstrong's Tour Blood Values "Suspicious".Here we go folks. I see some forums with multiple threads, butting heads, deep into the night....http://nyvelocity.com/content/fea...rong-tour-blood-values-suspicious Some interesting stuff in a reply post.
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| kathy |
That's a BIG jump in Lance's figures between May and June of this year.
And why does Brad have a spike in the middle of the Giro and the Tour? |
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| Bartali |
I've asked about Brad's spike before, but got no answer.
That was an interesting post Huw - I assume it will get swept under the carpet like all the other things. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
I can imagine that those Trek/Nike lawyers will be working overtime to suppress this. Pat Twat will do his 'nothing to see here' and building a new swimming pool. | ||||
| mr shifter |
Re: Armstrong's Tour Blood Values "Suspicious".[quote="HuwB"]
Should have told Pantani that and he wouldn't have then needed the drugs as the Depresion set in to the ultimate conclusion. ?? I say this because the initial reports claimed it and then these reports were massaged. |
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| HuwB |
The only reason I can think of is that you would expect values to "recover", during a period of rest. Can't remember exactly, but I think Brad had a pretty intensive pre-Giro race schedule and only went there as tour prep. Of course, an expert, I'm not..... ....but it doesn't take an expert to figure out that for Armstrong's figures to remain static, during the entire Tour, means something is amiss. Big jumps on the eve of the mountains and Ventoux is how I read it, not after a rest day recovery. Diahrrea......which I thought he always avoided by carefully prepared food and dehaydration, thereafter, (more commonly known as the Schumacher Defence) might explain it, but........ If this is a common occurence, why did his HCT reading not get a flag, after his Cap Decouverte dehydration debacle? That was massive, in this context and should have pushed him over the 50% cut off..... |
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| Bartali |
No way Huw .... its because he trains harder than anyone else! 
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| HuwB |
Any thoughts on the bit I've just added? |
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| Bartali |
I'm not all over the science unlike some, but I just don't buy a diahrrea/dehydration defence. This guy Twittered endlessly and if that would have been an issue we would have heard about it by now. |
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| kathy |
The only sort of diarhoea he's got is the verbal kind. | ||||
| mazda |
Yup. From June, all the way through the Tour, Lance has constant Hamocrit levels and low reticulocyte levels. The latter is what makes the off-score constantly high. It's also, apparently, a good indicator of blood doping. |
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| Slapshot 3 |
I picked this up on a Danish new site last night but Couldn't get a translation, but suffice to say there look to be concerns.
I can see mctwat out with his brush already |
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| MAILLOT JAUNE |
Are Armstrong and Wiggins the only ones to make their results public?
What are Contador's and the Schleck's results like in comparison? |
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| Slapshot 3 |
wonder what the eurosport boys have to say....nowt obviously one anticipates
BUT....we'll see Afternoon Gents, There appears to be a new story doing the rounds of every cycling based forum on the planet regarding the published blood values of Lance Armstrong from the Tour. Compared to the "normal" degredation of his levels during the Giro his levels stay very uniform during the tour with a couple of telling spikes around the rest days. Is there any other information you guys have and what are your thoughts, Regards |
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| HuwB |
There is more information now. I stole this from Daily Peloton forums.
-- Brief summary of Mørkebjergs comments: He points out that off season, the values lie around 1%, which quite normal. But come Tour time, the reticulocyte values have fallen to half that - 0,5%. Firstly, Mørkebjerg notes that this is borderline for a normal, healthy person. Secondly, he observes that this indicates that Armstrong's body has halved its own production of red blood cells, which is a significant drop off. This usually only happens at times when the body has an excess of red blood cells and is often seen with EPO usage or blood transfusions, though he of course points out that this is not proof that this has occured in this instance. He notes that Armstrong's values are more or less as one would expect that they should be during the Giro. His Hct and Hgb values fall as they would be expected to, and his Reticulocyte vary from 1,3% over 0,7% to 0,9%. It is the TdF results which he finds unusual, both in their own rights, as well as in comparison to the Giro numbers: 1. No decrease in Hgb/Hct by the end of the race (the earlier reports also noted the variations coinciding with the rest days). 2. Extremely low reticulocyte results. They were down to 0,5 by the start of the race, rose to 0,7% after the first week of the race and then went down to 0,5% again after the first rest day. At the end of the race, they had once again risen to 0,7%. |
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| Enchantress |
now the only question is..........how long before dopestrong's lawyers file suit | ||||
| Bartali |
He's toast! | ||||
| kathy |
Wishful thinking, Bartali! |
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| Enchantress |
Count me among those thinking wishfully! Ah, but it is fun to imagine no? Just picture team radioshite disbanded before ever so much as doing their first race. Armstrong disgraced in spin control, frothing at the lips at being framed, with his lawyers in full assault through a very compliant north american media. Instead we'll be treated to a year's onslaught of hype and touting, sherwin and leggit falling all over themselves to kiss lance's arse and how he'll beat conquistador 
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Wonder what super-climbing Frodo's blood values were too... | ||||
| bianchigirl |
Kathy, verbal diarrhoea, made me laugh 
The 50% drop in reticulytes takes some explaining and I'm not aware that Armstrong was hopping off his bike at every opportunity to duck behind the nearest bush - otherwise I'm sure 'LanceCam' would have picked up the full grisly effects, glued as it was to his arse. But I'm not holding my breath - McQuaid has already quite shamelessly stated that he talks to Lance a lot about the future of the sport - I know there's a conflict of interest issue there but the governing of the sport is already past a joke. |
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| Dainty Girl |
Would that be the super climbing Frodo who was in the laughing group on every one of the big mountains? |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Hi Sooty. Dressing up in women's clothes and messing around with gender roles?
Why not just sign up as the Frodo Defence League for the protection of doped up Hobbits and be done with it. Frodo Dopo is learning well at the teat of a master doper like EPO Erik. Learning all the tricks to get himself over those mountains and to recover in time. He's doing the GDR proud. If Frodo has nothing to hide bar a few embarrassing roid rage incidents then why not put up his blood values for us all to see? Maybe he's been picking up tips from his second new best friend Lancey about how to make it through those tests. Frodo does seem to be drawn to those dopers. Birds of a feather stick together. |
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| Dainty Girl |
I'm not Sooty. Wishful thinking on your part if you think you've managed to reduce the forum to only posters who agree with you. Way to go. | ||||
| Mrs John Murphy |
of course you aren't. I am sure that Frodo's honour has been restored thanks to your intervention. You can go back to lurking until the next time.
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| Superbagneres |
I think you're being rather disingenuous there, Dainty Girl. Cav is actually a much better climber than you give him credit for. In fact, if you carefully analyse the 3 hours and 21 minutes which he finished behind Contador, you will find that almost all of that was on flat stages where he was held up behind crashes, was naive in being caught out when echelons formed or punctured at unlucky times. I don't think coming 131st overall quite does his climbing justice, although admittedly he still does have one bad day in the very high mountains in a Grand Tour. If he just shows more consistency on the flat he could be a contender for the green jersey one day. |
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| mayofan |
wowee! obviously the july scores scream doping, but simply because theyre too static..
but june....LA must have been seriously worrying after the giro, cos those are all over the place!! what looks like a serious recharge in mid june, around the 16th. Possibly he was dehydrated, i only say that cos im surprised his values are that dodgy...i would have expected those completely static july values all year... fwiw brad wiggins values were dodgy also...but nowhere near as much, just looked like a minor rest day refill. (all to my untrained eye) |
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| bianchigirl |
This from the CN forums for those who might not have seen it - a good, graphic presentation of the evidence:
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| HuwB |
Better yet, this incredibly clear and thorough explanaition of the figures.
Reads like a good thriller, but with a damning twist in it's tail. http://www.localcyclist.com/2009/09/a-tale-of-two-cyclists/ Reminds me of the Matt Rendell "in depth" profiling of Pantani's values. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
For the point of view of comparison. How do the Armstrong/Wiggins values compare with those of Basso?
The data is here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=77620#post77620 Damsgaard shows just how far he has fallen and sold out. http://www.velonews.com/article/97468 The cover up and damage limitation exercise has started already. Watch for Harmon to read out the press release this afternoon. |
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| HuwB |
http://community2.livestrong.com/...0-4191-87ab-876900af77d0.Full.jpg
Lance appears to have removed all the data that's causing people to raise their eyebrows. At least modifying existing values is slightly subtle. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Curiouser and curiouser. So much for transparency. | ||||
| Enchantress |
Yes, but more importantly - will anything come of it?
He already fired his purported anti-doping expert Catlin long ago with, as usual, no reaction from the sporting press in america. I'd have to think overwhelmingly the chances are nil that the dopestrong machine is slowed in the least.... |
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| HuwB |
Can't be bothered to star another LA thread, but don't you just love those PDF files?
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/sports/040105_lance.pdf Michael Andersons legal battle with his ex "Boss". Plagerised, but....
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| SlowRower |
So what happened? It would make an ideal plot for an episode of Friends with modest editing.
I did like the way the doc referred simply to "Crow". Rather pathetically, I did chuckle at the bit where Armstrong wouldn't let Kristin have her new bike after they'd split up. |
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| Biosphere |
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| Spoo |
He must have been one very busy bloke this Mike Anderson, reading his list of 'jobs' makes me feel pretty damn lazy 
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| cardinal guzman |
Anderson? If Armstrong wasn't so cheap, he'd buy himself a real butler then he wouldn't need to worry about confidentiality with his dirty little secrets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXWUsm0L3U |
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| cadence |
Anderson was an Armstrong groupie, big deal
On March 31 2005, Mike Anderson filed a brief [63] in Travis County District Court in Texas, as part of a legal battle following his termination in November 2004 as an employee of Armstrong. Anderson worked for Armstrong for two years as a personal assistant. In the brief, Anderson claimed that he discovered a box of Androstenone while cleaning a bathroom in Armstrong's apartment in Girona, Spain.[64] Androstenine is not on the list of banned drugs. Anderson stated in a subsequent deposition that he had no direct knowledge of Armstrong using a banned substance. Armstrong denied the claim and issued a counter-suit.[65] The two men reached an out-of-court settlement in November 2005; the terms of the agreement were not disclosed. So much for Anderson’s strong personal beliefs against doping. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You're just jealous because Armstrong passed you up for the job of knob-polisher-in-chief.
Very amusing for you to accuse anyone of being an Armstrong groupie. Seriously shitty wages there. |
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| SlowRower |
Indeed. I wonder why he didn't consider resigning sooner. Particularly round about the time he discovered the "PEDs"? Or maybe Armstrong's links to Ferrari enabled him to get hold of some sort of super chain-lube that made all the bikes go faster. I'm also curious why he didn't approach a bank for a loan to start his bike shop. After all, at the time, you could get a "NINJA" (no income, no job or assets) loan to buy a house, so surely there would have been someone to give him a loan on a purely commercial basis. Never work for a friend, never employ a friend and never get too friendly with your boss. It usually ends in tears. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
A fan is obviously going to be more loyal, more eager to please their hero and willing to work for less.
The only downside comes when they discover that far from being the clean rider that they thought you were, you are in fact a lying junkie. |
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| The Lemondheads |
He also thought that he'd done a Devil's deal with Pharm - that once his services were no longer required he could open up a 'Lance approved' bike shop to flog millions of Treks to Livestrong-junkies. Anderson and his wife thought they were going to live happily ever after on the back of Pharm's legacy; add that to the obvious man-crush and offering a complete mechanics+homemaking+fellatio service package for a few thousand $'s starts to look like a good deal. Keeping quiet about a few boxes of drugs and the secret code names for Michele Ferrari is all part of maintaining the legacy that you're planning on retiring on. |
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| The Lemondheads |
Because Armstrong wanted him to sign a non-disclosure. So he couldn't let anyone know that he was Pharmo's mechanic; so he had no different business model to any other spanner monkey that opens up a shitty bike shop. He's not an ex-pro, he may not have any decent contacts, who cares? He thought he would be opening a Pharm-approved shop with racks of Trek Madones and loads of those stupid yellow wristbands on everything. |
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| SlowRower |
That was my point - When he discovered the "PEDs", or at least what he suspected to be PEDs, his hero should rationally have ceased to be his hero and become just an unreasonable employer paying crap wages, which would be the logical point to resign on a PED-related point of principle. Doubtless he carried on working for (a) the hope of the bike shop in the long term and (b) continued ongoing salary in the short term. The PED side of things didn't seem to bother him at the time whilst he still thought he was going to get the bike shop. This is entirely understandable, but helps rank the importance of PEDs and a future Armstrong-lubricated living in MA's personal priorities. |
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| SlowRower |
I was thinking he might have done a rationale assessment of the local bike-shop situation and determined that there was an opening for a shop containing a competent mechanic. There's certainly a shortage of such bike shops in my vicinity; maybe Texas is blessed with a lot of good bike mechanics! Thus, I was envisaging him having approached a bank prior to taking the Armstrong Shilling. Maybe he's not one of life's deep thinkers. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Not really no. It is clear that the relationship changed after the discovery of the PEDs. | ||||
| Slapshot 3 |
Brad....gutted for him | ||||
| SlowRower |
Maybe so, but not so much as to make him resign at that point. It's a bit like Labour Cabinet ministers resigning in 2007-2008 and claiming they were really against the Iraq War, despite having voted in its favour in 2003. If you want credibility, you have to resign at the time the offensive incident happens, otherwise you just look like an opportunisitc chancer. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Another specious comparison.
With no job to go to, (and on those wages) few savings, and a very young child, I think it would take a very financially foolish person to quit there and then. I'd have thought to a Tebbitite like yourself not resigning makes perfect sense - whether you are a fanboy are not. Market forces trumps morals, even for groupies. |
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| SlowRower |
I don't disagree with all that; the fact that it happened simply undermines the claimed importance of the PED incident, however understandable / financially sensible his actions were. The path of righteousness can be an expensive one to travel. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Only in your mind.
For example if we take yourself, Cadence and Cape as typical fanboys we can see that fanboys like to delude themselves. So trying to apply logic to the behaviour of a fanboys is rather pointless. |
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| cadence |
No, it’s not clear, you/we are reading Mikes personal interpretation of events presented in a way that supports his claims. Unless one is clairvoyant it’s practically impossible to know or interpret the reason another may have changed their feelings in a relationship, or in this case assuming they changed at all. Its also appears the Salary he received was compensatory with the position Mike held. http://www.indeed.com/salary/Personal-Assistant.html |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Thank you Bertrand Russell.
But yes it is clear that the relationship changed. I know that in your eyes Anderson speaking out against Armstrong means that he is automatically a liar and every word is speaks is ventriloquized by Satan. But it could just be that *drum roll* the man is speaking the truth. Most PA's do not have the range of duties that Anderson had. A bog standard PA might be paid that but a PA with so many duties and who was expected to be on call 24/7/365 would be paid much much more. |
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| SlowRower |
Well applying your logic certainly won't get anyone very far, for sure. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Maybe, but it'll still get you out of the intellectual cul-de-sac within which you reside.
Your logic can be summed up as 'Lance is great anyone who says anything against him is a liar.' |
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| Ralphnorman |
I don't get where this topic turned into SR being a fanboy. I can see SR talking about why Anderson didn't resign at the time of his PED discovery (according to him) and he doesn't disagree with {MJM} saying that Anderson stayed for the money in the short term and the bike shop long term. Then MJM says that you can't apply the logic that has just be presented by MJM to fanboys. So why did MJM present this logic in a discussion of this context already knowing that the logic would not work and is irrelevant?
My head hurts now..... |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
You've not read the discussion properly. | ||||
| SlowRower |
Ralph, I turned into a Fanboy in MJM's eyes some time ago, when I questioned a few of her unsubstantiated claims about Armstrong. Despite being a supposed champion of human rights (including, one would assume, free speech) in MJM-world, non-compliant views are ruthlessly attacked with insults and further falsehoods. (This is fine by me, by the way, as it livens up the entertainment.) She's been quiet since having to admit that the Ferrari super-dope was not the only factor underlying Armstrong's previous successes, as previously asserted with considerable ferocity, but appears to be back for some more sparring to liven up the otherwise dull Autumn days. Train hard and ignore us. We're old enough to know better. 
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| Mrs John Murphy |
SR - you were a fanboy long before I ever called you one. A leopard can't change its spots and a fanboy can't change the Lance Duvet. As for falsehoods, lies and re-writing history, your post is a good example of it. Well done.
Funny how you enjoy wumming but don't like it when it comes back and bites you on the arse. Seems to me that you think that the only person who is allowed to wum, or to 'play devils advocate' is yourself. Someone winds you up about being a fanboy and wanking yourself to death over Lance and you get all upset. I've never 'admitted that it wasn't just Ferrari's super-dope' - so once again you are either lying or too stupid to read what is before you. I will repeat it for you again - give Geoffroy Lequatre - the Armstrong dope and he'd be giving Dertie a run for his money. Make Armstrong ride on the Agritubel mix and he would have quit this years TDF by stage 2. Dope and the money to get it is what gets a 37-38 year old rider to 3rd in the TDF. If he hadn't he'd have finished about as far behind as Simoni did in the Giro. Sparring - hardly - you start something - get slapped around and then you cry. If you don't like being called a fanboy then stop acting like one. |
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| HuwB |
I posted the link, as it was yet another person giving their apparent insight into the man behind the mask.
Depending upon how you look at it, all these individuals have one thing in common. Either, a combined sense of sour grapism and speculative financial gains, or, a genuine case against Armstrong for wrong doing. Their weakess appears to be the character flaw of getting involved with Armstrong, in the first place, which seems to lay the open to accusations of the above. What strikes me is the similarity of the testimony each of these malcontents. The picture of LA, that they all paint, comes off the same brush. |
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| SlowRower |
Or both. It would be hard to deny that Anderson was relying on an association with Armstrong to further his career in the bike shop industry and that he only resigned after it became apparent that this wasn't going to come to anything, at which point, the PED discovery and Armstrong's behaviour becomes a big issue. So, financial speculation and sour grapes. Equally, it would be hard to deny that Armstrong doesn't sound like a good employer and I would guess that he would have had to pay severance pay in accordance with the employment contract without a non-disclosure arrangement being in place. (NDAs on settlements are only normal when the payout is higher than contractually obliged.) Moral of the story - expect nothing positive of sports stars other than sporting performances. |
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| SlowRower |
Well that doesn't matter as it is a simple matter of fact that there must have been other factors as play. If not, then he would have won this year's TDF, as he was the only one with Ferrari's superdope. As it happens, you did downgrade your claim to the superdope being the most important factor as opposed to the only factor, but your memory seems about as reliable as your logic. |
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| kathy |
It might liven it up for you and MJM, but for others of us it makes us ignore what otherwise might be an interesting thread. |
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| SlowRower |
Put me on "Ignore", Kathy. On balance, this will probably save you from a lot more rubbish than it costs you meaningful insight. Actually, not on balance. It will just save you from the rubbish.
Besides, she started it and my Dad is bigger than her's. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Seems to me that your memory is selective about what I've said as it is about cycling history but then when have you ever let reality get in the way of defending your boy Lance? Lets see - you've ticked off the 'I am not a Lance fanboy' post, you've done your 'you said this because I say you said it' post and your 'lance is great and I am just going against the flow because that's the kind of 'crazy guy I am' post. You've pretty much reached your limit. Are we onto rinse and repeat? It must suck for you - now you've done your race and Lance has retired to charge up for the winter - your limited to wumming and complaining about being wummed. I've said before - you ought to just start a Lance-porn thread so you can get your rocks off and do a bit of 'Indian training' at the same time. |
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| Ralphnorman |
Which is why i posted saying that i didn't understand, hence some explanation was IMO neccessary to certify your statement that SR is a fanboy. |
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| SlowRower |
I'm training for next year now. Can't have Old Tex claiming to train harder than me. |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
If you had read the discussion properly it was pointed out that Armstrong had employed Anderson because he was a fanboy. Because he was a fanboy he was loyal and willing to work for very little. Although the risk is always when the fanboy discovers his hero is a cunt. SR said that if doping were the issue for the split then why did Anderson not leave there and then. To which my response is that logically he should have done many things - but that the logic and mental processes of a fanboy defy normal logic. An example of the 'anti-logic' of fanboys can be seen by SR and pretty much any of the Armstrong lovers on the forum who continue to defend the indefensible and to deny, or excuse Armstrongs actions and behaviour. |
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| Ralphnorman |
This is the bit I don't get. Having read many of SR's posts I haven't seen anything that would ead me to conclude that he was more of a fanboy and anyone else. Any articles in particular i should be reading to prove that SR is a fanboy? |
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| Mrs John Murphy |
Now you are just being silly. You obviously haven't been reading very many of SR's posts, or you're wumming.
If SR isn't a fanboy then I am pro-doping and a huge fan of the Spanish authorities attitude towards dealing with doping. Oh - SR - since you are into monitoring/stalking my posting and general activity - I am just off out this afternoon. So you've got a few hours to prepare you're next bout of fanboy/wummery. |
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| Ralphnorman |
Or our definitions of fanboy are different which is why you see him as one and I don't. I'm off to train for a while to prepare for my races next year. Does that mean that I'm limited to wumming? Could it be that only people who actually race are able to be wum's? | ||||
| Bartali |
Oh no Ralph .... we can all wum if we want to.
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| cardinal guzman |
b. | ||||
| Biosphere |
You've forgotten the test results
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| SlowRower |
Good spot! 
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