| Archive for justcycling.myfastforum.org Just Cycling |
| pantanifan |
Are you "British"?After the recent discussion on Britishness (in the football thread I think), just wondering whether UK passport holders think of themselves as British or identify with Scotland, Wales, etc. |
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| ventoux |
I suspect (but may be wrong) that more of the English will "sign up" as British, whereas your Welsh & Scots will lean towards their national identities... | ||||||
| pantanifan |
You might well be right there Ventoux, just by the way, would anyone describe themselves as proud to be English (without any racist connotations)? | ||||||
| cosmo |
The UK is in a state of utter disrepair so, from a personal point of view I couldn't say I was British or, English with any pride. True Britishness went a long time ago, it was something I would associate with good, old fashioned victorian values - her late majesty would turn in her grave if she could see the mess of today (as would both my grandfathers who fought in the first & the second world wars). If I must answer, it it would have to be English. | ||||||
| grrr |
British (with a definition of Britishness that delights in the thought of Queen Victoria and her inbred ilk turning in their graves) | ||||||
| bbnaz |
This looks to be a most interesting question.
As someone whose family has been across the pond for over 13 generations at minimum (except for Welsh great granny), I consider myself to be an Arizonan (fifth generation in the bloody desert) first. But ethnically? Irish, Welsh and Scottish. With some English and German tossed in. 
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| Sooty |
I am English through and through - or maybe not. Well, it's a little more complicated for any Brit really - although the latest theory is that there are some folks who are truly indigenous. My Wiltshire born Grandmother was so 100% Wiltshire that there is NOBODY in her tree who even came from a town, let alone out of the county. Upwards of 8 generations of Wiltshire farming peasantry - no wonder I go "aaahh" when I see sheep on a green hillside! Interestingly my Mother still uses Wiltshire dialect words which she picked up from my Gran which are so Saxon as to be German - eg: "leer" for feeling empty, hungry. And recent research by UCL has shown that the DNA of the population for a 30 mile radius around Chippenham is still 99% Anglo-Saxon - which probably explains why I look like Thomas Wesemann. So that's my mytochondrial DNA....
And my Y-chromosome DNA? My Father's line? Kent, Kent, Kent, Kent etc etc... But of course this is where it all becomes more mysterious because it is also possible to analyse our DNA for those lines which are not "direct". My Mum's Dad had a surname (not revealed here) which is known to derive from a Flemish city (with strong cycling associations) - a surname that is very common in East Anglia, and originally brought over with Flemish traders I assume. It also appears that my Dad's GG Grandmother may have been Irish...... my Dad's RHA ancestor being stationed in Ireland in the 1830s/40s. As you can tell by now, I am completely obsessed by family history and really should seek help/get out more/etc etc. I am very patriotic and become quite tearful about certain aspects of England and Englishness - but I should point out, I am not right wing, hate football, yob culture, flag-waving racism, etc etc. I'm more Michael Powell, Vaughan Williams, Thomas Hardy and sheep on a green hillside..... damn it, I knew I'd mention sheep again.... |
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| bbnaz |
When studying Tudor England at university, whenever we had an examination, it was always failsafe to write something about the wool trade..... | ||||||
| sheeponabike |
I feel completely English and proud of it. Although I have strong feelings for Scotland as my grandmother was Scottish. (I always support Scotland in rugby - unless they're playing England of course  )
Good post sooty - I agree with most of that! |
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| shimouma |
I remember at school being about 15 or 16 and having to take a new class called 'careers'. The first class involved filling in a CV (resume for you Americans) and just about everybody in the class filled in English as their nationality, apart from rogue elements from Scotland, Ireland and the Ukraine.
There was much incredulity and downright disbelief all around when the Teacher explained that British was the correct answer in regards nationality. I don't know anyone in England who considers themselves British and not English. Same goes for the Welsh and Scots I know and have known. Northern Ireland is well and truly f+#cked though. The Nationalists rightly consider themselves Irish, but the Unionists have this crazy idea that they're British - the only people in all of the 'British' Isles to think that way. 
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| grrr |
a quick straw poll of my office suggests otherwise. Of 6 people born & brought up in England we have:
1 irish (both parents Irish and brought up in an irish enclave) 1 english 3 british (both parents english) 1 british (one welsh & one english) |
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| CapeRoadie |
Where do the Cornish, Manx, and people from the Carlisle/Scottish borders weigh in? What about the Bretons? | ||||||
| ventoux |
Well, I'm English, and I'd think of myself as European first, then British, and then English.... I'll admit I'm not like most people though.... (but my therapist is helping me work on it... )
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| bbnaz |
See, now I think of myself first as a human, then a woman, then a mother, then a member of my family, then an Arizonan, then American, then Irish/Welsh/Scots.....
you think your therapist could help me out too? |
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| Sooty |
Now I know why you weren't interested in that therapist's phone number I offered you.... |
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| tourmalet |
Definitely British not English (although born in England or English parents). I'd also consider myself to be European. There are too many scary little Englanders around - all that St Georges Day stuff and flags scares me. Not to suggest everyone who does the flag thing and considers themselves English is in that camp - but there's a lot of people under that banner I'd rather not associate with. | ||||||
| Bartali |
First and foremost a Yorkshireman!! Otherwise, I tend to agree with Shim'. | ||||||
| shimouma |
Might be the Yorshire viewpoint Bartali, as I too am a Yorkshireman. | ||||||
| tourmalet |
agreed, but not everyone has the beneft of being born on the right side of the pennines so i don't like to boast about it myself. |
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| sheeponabike |
Shim and Bartali - i'm a Derbyshire lad myself - we'll have to get together sometime and talk about clogs and black pudding 
Had a mate from Sheffield once who always said "You can tell when you get to Sheffield, it's where the M1's cobbled
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| Bartali |
Looks like we have a strong contingent from "the right side of the Pennines"!
Sheep' ... don't forget the whippets!
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| sheeponabike |
Aye lad, forgorrabout' whippets
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| smarauder68 |
Does being a "yorkshireman" mean you're from the city of York or just the surrounding region?
Being a broadcaster, I have a keen ear for accents, at least for a yank...How far south do you have to go before the yoke-sheer sound dissapates? |
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| Bartali |
sm68 - Yorkshire is a county of which York is the 'capital' city. (Think of Yorkshire as Texas and York as Austin and you can't go far wrong.)
As for accents, its not quite that simple. People in North Yorkshire speak quite differently from those in South Yorkshire. Even in South Yorkshire, the Barnsley accent is quite ditinct from the Sheffield accent and the two towns/cities are only a few miles apart. I'm from south Sheffield which is itself in South Yorkshire. IMO Chesterfield 10 miles south is similar, but not the same. But Nottingham and Derby (around 35 miles south) are quite distinct. |
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| Bartali |
Oh, one other thing. If you want to know what a Sheffield accent sounds like, think Sean Bean from the movies/flicks. | ||||||
| grrr |
or listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swb8AEcRJhY |
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| sheeponabike |
Or listen to the Arctic Monkeys.
Or Joe Cocker in interview. And if you want to know what a Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire miner speaks like (a bit like me) read Lady Chatterley's Lover. 
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| bbnaz |
So what is a "Geordie"?
I know that I have asked this somewhere once before someplace but I have forgotten......... |
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| Bartali |
A Geordie is a native of Newcastle which is further north | ||||||
| sheeponabike |
From Newcastle. Best accent in England IMO. Listen to Eric Burdon in interview for example. | ||||||
| bbnaz |
This band is funny as hell........... |
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| crash48 |
Geordies hey?
They are great fun. We go up there a bit for work, and going out with those boys at night is something else. Of course I have no idea what they are saying after a few pints But there great fun.
I love the regional accent of the UK. I love a good west country accent. |
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| smarauder68 |
where is David Duffield from? | ||||||
| smarauder68 |
Sean Bean sounds a bit like Nick Faldo...Are they from the same area? | ||||||
| crash48 |
I hold a UK pasport, and I consider myself lucky
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| bbnaz |
Exactly where do you hold that passport that it makes you so lucky?
Wouldn't it be nice to not need passports at all? |
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| crash48 |
I did the US lottery thing a couple of times when I was at uni to try and get the old green card.
Thankfully, some company was wise enough-or maybe unwise enough-to employ me and then offer me a job there so it was all good. Passports do suck. You should be able to swap with someone for an agreed period of time where you both live and work in each others country without restrictions. Like that is ever bloody going to happen in the world as it is now. |
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| bbnaz |
I remember coming back from a horse show at Spruce Meadows (Calgary, ALB) in Canada. I had broken my hand (punched a recalcitrant fencing board sheathed in sheet metal) and was pulling a horse trailer with three horses. I offered a ride to two Aussies who were headed to Los Angeles in exchange for four healthy hands to go with my one. Mind you, they had their visas, return plane tickets home, everything in proper order and they were denied entrance at the American border. Some pompous arsed border guard decided that they were coming to America to get work and had no intentions of going home. These two had fricking VISAS permitting them into the country! I was wild and proceeded to abuse the guard (am surprised that they didn't arrest me and throw me in jail) and question whether he had been unlucky at the bar the night before. The two were quite gracious even though I got on the phone to my senator (Barry Goldwater at the time) who was a family friend but he couldn't do anything immediately for me. The two went back to Calgary and crossed over later. I made it home but have been pissed off ever since.
Passports and pompous border guards, I loathe them. |
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| crash48 |
I have to agree with the whole 'attitude' problem of US customs or border guards.
I had a problem coming back into the states from a couple of months in mexico on my very first trip there when I was backpacking. He could not believe that I could have saved up money back at home and in the UK to support me for a year in the States-even though I could prove I had the money, had an return ticket and a credit card etc. He let me in, but it was a fair old episode. Of course I was working 'cash in hand' in the States, and making a shite load on money (for a backpacker anyway) in various bars
Mind you, Australian customs can be right royal wankers. |
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| pantanifan |
Customs guards are the same everywhere, they just want to remind you that they are in a position of power. I remember trying to cross into Bulgaria from Romania a few years ago by car - we had to pay a "green tax" to get out of Romania, which we paid, and then should have paid another green tax to get into Bulgaria, but we didn't have the appropriate currency and wanted to pay by card ("not possible mate"), so they turned us back, and to cap it all the Romanian guards then took a lunch break meaning we had to wait 1 1/2 hours in no man's land to get back into the country we had never been allowed to leave! | ||||||
| sheeponabike |
hey crash - so you were one of these wandering Australians then? When I was younger I spent two consecutive summers zig zagging accross europe and I saw and met so many Aussies trogging around with backpacks or in VW campers that I reckoned there were more of them over here than back in Aus!
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| Bartali |
Nah ... Crash is over here for the sunshine!
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| crash48 |
Sheep
I was over here sometime ago on the make and backpacking as Australians do, but now I am here for work. I did the travel thing for two straight years (Europe, States, Mexico) before I went to Uni. While at Uni the whole wanderlust thing never left, and I continued to travel at the end of semesters and sometimes deferring for 6 months to go to Africa and Sth America. Finally got a job stayed there for a while and then left and went to India for 3 months. Got another job and after a couple of years they decided to send me to the States and then to London-good for them! Bartali Ironically even with the lack of sunshine, (the weather is not that bad) I got back into my riding big time while in the UK and even started racing again. Europe however, has caused me to have a couple of sickies (sick days) to extend some weekend bike trips- such was the case this weekend riding around Liguria and up in the hills heading north. |
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| Sooty |
So Crash is an Aussie, fancy that? And he lives in Islington? He loves his Cycling of course? It's called a rising inquisitive I gather?
Smarauder - David Duffield comes from Wolverhampton I think. Mind you I sometimes wonder if his own brand of brummie probably has more to do with too many extended lunchtimes. My Dad comes from Woolwich and can hear the difference between East London, South London and North London. In fact there are (were...) differences depending on where you come from in the East End. How many of you knew that Tommy Simpson was actually a Geordie rather than a Yorkshireman? Anybody been watching "The Face of Britain" on Ch 4? |
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| crash48 |
Spot on mateeeee
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| Bartali |
I thought he was from Harworth in Nottinghamshire??? |
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| bbnaz |
My dear Geordie lass passed away Thursday last from unexpected complications after heart surgery. Needless to say not only am I devastated but I have lost a teacher of great wit and knowledge (and a fellow pint drinker to boot).
Enid I raise a glass in your honor! |
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| bianchigirl |
sorry to hear that, BB - I know how much your friends mean to you | ||||||
| Bartali |
Sorry to hear you news. | ||||||
| crash48 |
Raise a glass to her, and a dozen more besides. | ||||||
| bbnaz |
I have loads of great memories of drinking in various pubs throughout Wales and England with her. She could drink me under the table which is saying something trust me.
Quite dimunitive she was but I am convinced she had a hollow leg! |
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| Sooty |
That's very sad bbnaz - really sorry to hear that. I lost someone very close to me a couple of years back, well before her time, and it is hard to accept I know. | ||||||
| Sooty |
Indeed he was, but his folks had come down from Newcastle looking for work in the York/Notts coalfield. My mate's wife comes from Cresswell, not so far away - she's a lovely lass, they're good folks in that part of the world. |
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| CapeRoadie |
Sorry to hear your news, bb. I will raise a glass to your friend as well. Best wishes. |
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| sheeponabike |
Sorry to hear that bb - and she drank pints too - must have been quite a lady. | ||||||
| Bartali |
I don't want to get drawn into the political dimention, but despite his insensitive terminology, I don't think Mr S actually meant to suggest that Eire was part of the UK.
His original point was a fair one for precisely the reason the thread decended into the brawl it became. What are Brits? English, Welsh, Scots ... or even Irish? Geographically, the British Isles includes the islands of Great Britain (the largest island in the archipelago), Ireland and many smaller islands such as the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. So, Ireland, the island, is part of the Brithish Isles and that is, politics aside, an inescapable fact. By the way ... I am a yorkshireman first and foremost, and can trace my history back to Coppa the Saxon, so perhaps I am German after all! |
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| kathy |
My paternal grandmother was born on Bardsey Island (Ynys Enlli) just off the tip of the Lleyn peninsula in North Wales. No-one lives there now - it's a bird sanctuary, and legend has it that several thousand saints are buried there, as it was a place of pilgrimage. When my gran lived there, Bardsey had a 'king', and my gran was his cousin. My mum was from Oldham, Lancashire, but she had some Scottish ancestry.
I consider myself to be Welsh, European and British in that order. I was born in Wales and lived there until I was 17, when I moved to - guess where! - Sheffield
Edit: just checked my Spanish Residencia (ID card), and it says I come from the United Kingdom - another variation on a theme, and one which I prefer to British. |
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| Bartali |
I think half this board has a Sheffield connection
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| pantanifan |
I'd be interested to know from our Irish posters whether the term "British Isles" is used in the Republic in this context? My feeling is that it is only widely used in Britain and nowhere else? In any case Bartali, I think mr shifter was at the very least trying to provoke people with comments such as "tick paddies" and "seeing them squirm"... |
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| Bartali |
Just google it! Republicans might not use the term - who does? I've never heard anyone say they are from the British Isles (just like I've never heard a Brazilian say he/she are from America). People say they are from the UK, GB, or one of the countries or islands or even counties. But that doesn't alter the fact that Ireland is part of the British Isles - even though it is not part of Great Britain or the UK. And I don't mean to offend my Irish friends by the above, nor will I condone the offensive language used by some. |
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| pantanifan |
OK I checked it on wikipedia and of course it exists as a geographical term, but the entry also contains this paragraph:
The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland where its use is objected to by many people[7] and by the government of the Republic of Ireland[8]. Its use is also avoided in relations between the governments of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, who generally employ the euphemism these islands... |
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| Biosphere |
Bartali and Pantani Fan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute The point I made on the other thread is that the name can't be neutral if it's the British that have coined it and it's a hangover from a different political era. Mr S used a flaky knowledge of ancient history to persist in using offensive language (which was what really annoyed me). Even the most recent usage of Britannia in Roman times did not include Ireland, so it's back to school for history lessons for him. I'll make an allowance and assume he was drunk on England's shock rugby success. The geographical argument is based around the continental shelf extending around the archipelago. How often do people think about continental shelves in day to day life? On that logic we might as well rename our respective homes the French Isles - it does extend from France you know.
Pantanifan, I see I'm too slow at typing! |
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| Monty28 |
Interesting subject, historical names and their relevance/acceptance today. Yes, I can certainly understand the Irish people not wanting their land to be lumped into "The British Isles", but there are other similar examples around the world. For example, what do the French call that strip of water which separates France from us perfidious English. Difficult to imagine them calling it the English Channel.
And do the Pakistani people worry about their south coast being washed by the Indian Ocean? |
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| pantanifan |
and is the Indian "sub-continent" a derogatory term? Where else do you have sub-continents? | ||||||
| Biosphere |
Africa (don't know what it means though) | ||||||
| Nolte |
if case be that i have to refer to it, i refer to it as "British and Irish Isles" and on a technicality Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain (to avoid an argument. It is a part of the United Kingdom but the full name of the United Kingdom excludes Northern Ireland from being part of Great Britain as the full name of the United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. and long may it stay a part of the United Kingdom or atleast igve it full independence in it's own right) |
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| HuwB |
Yes and the Welsh refer to the stretch of water between Wales and Eire as the Irish Sea. So I'm afraid on that basis, it's the British Isles. Nothing to do with nationalities though. | ||||||
| Nolte |
i've heard the irish sea refered to by irish people as the celtic sea |
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| HuwB |
We're obviously being far too generous. Yes, I have too, moreso recently. The times they are a changing......
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| pantanifan |
Yeah, but what did the Romans call it...?
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| mayofan |
most irish people wont object to the geographical term the british isles..
when used in a geographical context what they will object to is being called british...which they are not mr s' point about the generalisation of 4 different peoples as british was perhaps a good one, but completely undermined by his claim that "irish are brits whether they like it or not" his persistent use of the term "thick paddies" and his self-professed joy at seeing irish quirm when they are called brits...there can be no explanation for that in this day and age there are not many anti-british irish people, most irish people are appalled by any violence used but the provos, and ashamed of what the IRA did throughout the troubles..but we still dont like being insulted |
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| HuwB |
Brought this over from the other thread. The term Brits seems to have replaced the word Limey, in US vocabulary. Both terms are, or were applied to citizens of the UK. In a similar way, the Aussies use the term, "Pom". Obviously, the vast majority of folks "tagged" would be English, but the rest of us are included. As for the other terms above, all are used by SOME English, when referring to these, non-English UK citizens. To my knowledge, none of these terms are used by any of the nationalities, to which they apply, towards eachother. I have no knowledge of any knickname that applies, in other areas of the UK, that refers specifically to those of English decent. In other words, the English are just English. |
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| Monty28 |
Actually Huw, I suspect these terms are very little used these days (more likely used by stand-up comics in days gone by). Certainly not used in my recent experience, much more likely to hear the expression "bloody Scots/Irish/Welsh", especially when you've just got one over on us.
In relation to nicknames for the English from other parts of the UK (& Ireland) the only one I can think of is "sassenach" (sp?)....but that also probably belongs more on the comedy circuit than in real life. What about it Ralph, is it ever used up there? |
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| HuwB |
Yep, it's usually a colourful adjective in front of the nationality.
I see the bleeding Scots are winning. 
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| Monty28 |
Yes, I was being polite when I said "bloody"!
Not any more, they're not....and won't win either if they carry on giving away soft tries and penalties. |
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| Sooty |
+1 And there are very few anti-Irish Brits nowadays - apart apparently from Mr S.... |
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| kathy |
My husband was known as "Taff" by all and sundry when we lived in Yorkshire in the 1990's. I was also known as "Mrs Taff". We didn't feel insulted, rather took it as a term of endearment. |
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| mayofan |
you probably wouldnt have liked being called a thick taffy by someone you didnt know though | ||||||
| kathy |
That's true, but an Irish friend who we got to know quite well first introduced himself as Paddy Murphy. It was some time before we discovered that he wasn't called Paddy or Patrick or Padraig, his first name was completely different. But because he was Irish with a fairly pronounced accent and living in London, he was called "Paddy" by everyone, so he'd adopted the name 
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| mayofan |
hehe..nice..
this group is very knowledgeable and quite amiable for the most part, and i hate to inflict this argument on ye, but mr s' coments really werent acceptable,sometimes calling someone a paddy or taff or whatever might be ok, and im not usually one to get hung up on PC'ness but in this case a bit wouldnt have gone astray nough said on this anyway..time to turn the page on that chapter |
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| Sooty |
I have two Welsh friends - and neither like being called Taffy....
But as you say, ENUFF. |
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| kathy |
Going off at a tangent - perhaps James or Nolte can answer me this - is it true that there are no snakes in Ireland? I was thinking of St Patrick, who was supposed to have chased them all away. I've only been to Ireland once, that was Dublin and the countryside around, and I didn't see any snakes, but that doesn't prove anything.
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| sheeponabike |
That's spot on. I'd say the Irish are much more laid back about this than the Welsh and the Scots. I've got loads of work so i'm not getting in here as much as usual - where's the thread that sparked all this? |
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| shimouma |
Let me add my two cents worth here. If you are ashamed by everything the IRA did throughout the troubles, then you are probably not a true Irishman or were probably born in the late 80s and have a very poor understanding of history. Whatever the IRA should be viewed in the light of a legitimate struggle against an oppressive , verging on apartheid regime. It could have been so very much worse if they had not been mainly interested in economic damage. If you flip it, you probably won't find too many people in England ashamed of what the govt and the army did over in one part of Ireland for many years. You probably won't even find too many people even aware of what actually went on.... |
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| pantanifan |
sheep: try page 24 of the history of cycling thread: http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/ftopic1394-460.php |
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| sheeponabike |
many thanks pantanifan looks like I missed a biggy there. Alot of knowledgeable people on this board, and great "putting in his place" of the "culprit"
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| Ralphnorman |
I'd say British, but I hate it when, on the news when there is news of football hooligans etc...when they are Scottish they say "a scottish hooligan.....etc" but when they are english they say "an english man....etc"......and i'm having trouble with my caps lock today so if i put a post all in caps lock its buggered up again...... | ||||||
| Sooty |
Very true - particularly about Brits not even understanding it. In fact usually when you watch the TV and you don't understand what they're talking about, it's because they're twisting something so much you CAN'T understand it - it's intentional. And that was certainly the case with Northern Ireland. |
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| mayofan |
there are no snakes in ireland..
and despite being acutely aware of irish history and all attached to that, there is never..i mean never, an excuse for indiscrimate terrorist acts the IRA killed women children catholics and protestants and therell bever be an excuse good enough for that, just like therell never be an excuse for what the english did in ireland |
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| Monty28 |
Very well said....could not agree more - on both counts! One small nitpick, however....I know the "english" will always be blamed for the misdeeds that took place in Ireland, but would just like to point out that the UK Government were in charge of, and therefore responsible for, this activity. And has been pointed out, the UK consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are all culpable whether we think otherwise or not. |
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| mayofan |
right you are..thought id avoid the word "british" though
shim, how deep is your knowledge of irish history..you may have me on one count, i wasnt born until 1990, but youre wide of the mark with the other two..you may find some people in britain(ahh??) ashamed of what happend in ireland, but you will definitely definitely find that most irish people do not condone what the IRA did..in fact if you know your history you might even find there was a civil war over the issue of fighting for n.ireland sure it was close to apartheid, it was awful but thats no excuse..gandhi didnt use it as one, and in the long run he was right wasnt he? if the catholics had en masse protested peacefully we wouldnt be talking about the atrocities the IRA committed, thousands of people would be alive who arent and the republicans may even have achieved their ultimate goal |
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| cardinal guzman |
I used to work with someone who claimed to have Provo links. He said that the bombing programme was often used to generate income when building was slow for the big Irish building firms. It certainly saved Manchester City council a large fortune when it couldn't afford to rebuild the Arndale centre. | ||||||
| Biosphere |
Come off it. The number of murders committed by the IRA means they can't be legitimised in the way you propose. No matter what the circumstances, you can't justify it on the other sides behaviour. War is horrible and people do unspeakably cruel things to one another. Trying to get closure on it by making it out to be a heroic struggle and pinning a few medals on people only dooms us to repeating it over and over. |
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| CapeRoadie |
It's C.V. here as well, shim. Here it means curriculum vitae. A resume is for a JOB, and a C.V. is a description of what you've done for purposes OTHER than a job. |
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| CapeRoadie |
Yeah, true. War is hell. |
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| CapeRoadie |
What the IRA did was no worse and no better than what the British did in Northern Ireland (or Ireland in general if we're talking Cromwell, etc.). We need to see the Orangemen stop parading through Irish Catholic neighborhoods. That's what's still wrong with Northern Ireland. |
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| shimouma |
Now, the definition is where we'd differ to begin with. I would not describe most of what the IRA did as indiscriminate terrorist acts. I wouldn't even label them as terrorist. The IRA fought a war against a hostile, occupying power. Anything they did should be considered in the context of this.
They did, but these things happen in conflicts. I wouldn't wish it on anyone though. |
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| shimouma |
I'd wholeheartedly agree with the point about most Irish people not condoning what the IRA did. But even outside the North, there is a certain level of sympathy there in places. But, to feel embarassed? That's what prompted my original response. In terms of the civil war, History is written by the winners. The guys that wanted to accept three quarters of a country won the Civil War. Most people in the South have come to accept this point of view. I'd be interested to know whether you'd say the activities of IRA pre-Civil War were also an embarassment?
One of the events that prompted the campaign of violence and 'terror' was the British Govt's violent crackdown on the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland. But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether you believe violence is acceptable and can be justified as a response to something. |
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| shimouma |
Peace and love, dude.
I am in no way, shape or form trying to paint anything as a heroic struggle. It was, as has been said before a very dirty war. |
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| shimouma |
Thank you, Cape. The definitions are something I didn't know. Are you sure though? As far as I remember, people in the UK are asked to send CV's when applying for jobs. Generally they contain you personal details, work history and personal achievements. |
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