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Enchantress

2010 Premier League Thread

So with about 10 days till the league starts and less than a week till the community shield, I figured we ought to have a football thread for the new season.

Thus, if you do follow the premier league...

What club do you support?

How do you expect your club to do?

Do you figure your club will or make any further moves in the transfer market? It is quite late but there are some last minute moves that happen...

Predictions for 2010....top 4....relegated....biggest surprise....disappointment....etc?

I do not know about the rest of you, but I'm ready for some good club football. Sometimes I almost feel spoiled by club football nowadays and especially after watching international football, ala the world cup.
Mrs John Murphy

The Premier League is Satan's contribution to sport.

Division 3 is where it's at.
cardinal guzman

Who do you support Enchantress?

I'm hopeful City can break into the top 4 this time. I'd like to see another good full back brought into the side but we'll see.

As for league 1 (Div 3) - Up the Dale!
Enchantress

MJM - ha ha, well the devil does provide us with delightful temptations..Besides if I want to see league 2 level football, then I can just tune in to the MLS Smile

CG...City have more transfer funds than anyone in the league and perhaps more than half the squads in the league...combined! Seems to me perhaps instead of continually bringing in players, they might find a group that work well together and cultivate that.

I support Liverpool. Last year was rough and this year is going to be very challenging. You talk about City needing another FB, Liverpool don't even have a recognized LB on the squad. Although they did resign Aurelio and may be able to shuffle around some players on the back line to get cover.

I'd be over the moon if LFC can sneak into the top 4. Those CL spots will be hard to come by, City will be one of the big challengers for those too
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
CG...City have more transfer funds than anyone in the league and perhaps more than half the squads in the league...combined! Seems to me perhaps instead of continually bringing in players, they might find a group that work well together and cultivate that.


Ouch.

I imagine a few will be leaving soon enough - though Robinho's like a dog turd on our shoe that we just can't shake off, no matter how polished it is.


Not that big a squad given that Mancini intends to go against the tide and have City compete in all competitions which means a lot of games......

Goalkeepers
David Gonzales (COL)
Shay Given (IRL)
Joe Hart (ENG)
Gunnar Nielsen (FAR)
Stuart Taylor (ENG)

Defenders
Dedryck Boyata (BEL)
Greg Cunningham (IRE)
Javan Vidal (ENG)
Jerome Boateng (GER)
Joleon Lescott (ENG)
Wayne Bridge (ENG)
Javier Garrido (ESP)
Shaleum Logan (ENG)
Nedum Onuoha (ENG)
Micah Richards (ENG)
Kolo Toure (CIV)
Pablo Zabaleta (ARG)

Midfielders
Abdisalam  Ibrahim (NOR)
Adam Johnson (ENG)
David Silva (ESP)
Gareth Barry (ENG)
Patrick  Vieira (FRA)
Yaya Toure (CIV)
Nigel de Jong (NED)
Kelvin Etuhu (NGR)
Stephen Ireland (IRL)
Michael Johnson (ENG)
Vincent Kompany (BEL)
Vladimir Weiss (SVK)
Shaun Wright-Phillips (ENG)

Strikers
Emmanuel Adebayor (TGO)
Craig Bellamy (WAL)
Felipe Caicedo  (ECU)
Alex Tchuimeni-Nimely (ENG)
Robinho  (BRA)
Roque Santa Cruz (PRY)
Carlos Tevez (ARG)

The size of the squad is largely due to the success of the academy which has 13 players achieve full squad status at the club - most of who can expect to see action to a greater or lesser degree as the winter unfolds.
maffy

as the 2010-2011 foolball season hasn't quite started yet, they've even managed some fairly interesting not-wall-to-wall football shizzle on fivelite recently. because they're bored, or something. uh, toon, hull, ne clubs not including boro or mackems - one in, one out. much rather watch a bicycle race. not sure what was wrong with the old thread?
Boogerd_Fan

I'm a closet Villa fan (who is currently open about it due to a few years of success)...

But watch Arsenal go this season. They're my picks. They should sell Fabregas though, while he's worth so much money. Wenger could buy 3 squad players for the money to complete his jigsaw. The 'youngsters' blooded last year, won't be so naive.. while the next batch are just as good if not better.

City's squad looks huge, lest we not forget the 25 player squad rule comes into play from the deadline day of this first transfer window.

I'm definitely looking forward to another great season of footy... World Cup games are too tactical, as they said a month ago, the English game is more about you take your turn to attack, then we take ours... until the final whistle. Roll on 15 Aug. Smile
smarauder68

FP for 2010/2011

1)Arsenal
2)Chelsea
3)Man City
4)Man Utd
5)Spurs
6)Liverpool
7)Everton
8)Aston Villa
9)Fulham
10)Stoke
11)Sunderland
12)Birmingham
13)Newcastle
14)Bolton
15)West Ham
16)Blackburn
17)West Brom
18)Wolves
19)Wigan
20)Blackpool

I'm supporting Fulham and Everton and hoping one of them can sneak into 7th.  I think Arsenal keeps Cesc and with a full season of health for him and Van Persie, the gunners will top the table as Chelsea starts to show signs of age. I think Drogba, Anelka and Lampard will regress slightly.
cardinal guzman

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
City's squad looks huge, lest we not forget the 25 player squad rule comes into play from the deadline day of this first transfer window.


That's a farce - badly implemented and won't make any difference to City who have 37 players right now - 13 qualify under the home grown clause and of the rest, 9 are under 21 years of age - so in fact we have a spare place to fill to meet the 25 man squad as the ruling stands. If we can get rid of Jo, Caceido and Robinho then we'll be well short of the quota.

Drogba will be imperious as long as he can avoid injury.
Boogerd_Fan

cardinal guzman wrote:
Boogerd_Fan wrote:
City's squad looks huge, lest we not forget the 25 player squad rule comes into play from the deadline day of this first transfer window.


That's a farce - badly implemented and won't make any difference to City who have 37 players right now - 13 qualify under the home grown clause and of the rest, 9 are under 21 years of age - so in fact we have a spare place to fill to meet the 25 man squad as the ruling stands. If we can get rid of Jo, Caceido and Robinho then we'll be well short of the quota.

Drogba will be imperious as long as he can avoid injury.



True, it has been rushed through without much thought it seems. Will be interesting to see how it impacts the clubs over the long-term though.

I have a feeling (at the moment) that it can help make some leveling of the playing field (except for at the very top of the league), because all the clubs will find some academy players just to top-up their squads to 25 players, and the top-class foreigners will be forced to spread across the clubs for regular playing time rather than just forming a foreign legion at one club. Just my thoughts how it'll play out in 4-5 years time.

Are there any individual game rules? For fielding home grown players?
its all well and good having only 17 foreigners in your squad.. but if that makes up your first team and the subs bench, its hardly doing any good is it.
Enchantress

I disagree somewhat about this "new rule"...it was voted on, to my knowledge, and approved last year by the boards of the teams in the league. So I don't see how now that the rule is coming into effect, months later, that they could be surprised.

If anything it highlights the need for bringing back a top level reserve league. I mean if you are among the 40+ senior players on say, City or Arsenal but aren't in the top 25....then what purpose are you serving on the club? You won't ever play. Having a reserve league would let these players play as well as give younger players an opportunity as well.

It also stops what some people think is the hoarding of players by top clubs to keep them away from their rivals.
SlowRower

Enchantress wrote:
I mean if you are among the 40+ senior players on say, City or Arsenal but aren't in the top 25....then what purpose are you serving on the club? You won't ever play.


Won't such players simply be sent on loan to the lower leagues? Saves the bother of running a proper reserve team. I guess over time that player headcounts will reduce at the top clubs as contracts expire and players get transferred atc. and not replaced.
cardinal guzman

SlowRower wrote:
Enchantress wrote:
I mean if you are among the 40+ senior players on say, City or Arsenal but aren't in the top 25....then what purpose are you serving on the club? You won't ever play.


Won't such players simply be sent on loan to the lower leagues? Saves the bother of running a proper reserve team. I guess over time that player headcounts will reduce at the top clubs as contracts expire and players get transferred atc. and not replaced.


As I understand it, you can swap your 25 players in January. So teams will farm out their first reserves on loan where possible with a bring-back clause for the January window when fresh legs will be needed for the spring when injuries usually start to bite tired legs.

What I see this doing is centralising talent at the big clubs academies who will each retain a nebula of satellite clubs to farm the young and reserves out for 6 months at a time.

Everyone will be shocked the first time a lower league contenders promotion push is derailed when a big club recalls it's loaned out star just as things are going well in January for the 'lesser' club.

The funny thing is how they got everyone to believe the lie that this would somehow control the bigger clubs grip on football. Mwuhahahaha suckers born every minute. Confused
smarauder68

So Liverpool fans hated the American ownership...how would they feel about the Chinese central govt taking control?  Laughing
cardinal guzman

MJM, any idea what Timisoara are like?
Enchantress

Well as a Liverpool supporter I can say there is good reason to hate the american owners.

And I remind you it has positively nothing to do with nationality. Rather they've completely made a mess of things, gotten the club deeply into debt, and predictably lied about a new stadium.

Whomever the potential owners are, as long as do what is best for the club from a long term perspective....provide adequate funds.....then I don't see any issues.

Like it or not football is big, big global business. I mean witness just how many of the premier league sides are foreign owned....City, Chelsea, Fulham, United, Sunderland, Liverpool....Not exactly small clubs.

As for the whole 25-squad limit....I'm not certain I agree with you SR & CG.

Consider that the clubs with the most senior players are all the big clubs....City, Arsenal, Chelsea for instance. While the likes of say, Blackpool don't even have 25 senior players total!

Certainly as you both suggested, big clubs can have more than 25 players and loan some of them. But what lower division side could possibly pay the wages of say, Robinho? The only way I could see that happening is if the owning club pays at least part (if not more) of the players wages....and in this case, then they are paying the wages of a player who cannot take the pitch for them for at least half the season.

This is particularly relevant to sides like City whose transfer policy has apparently been....buy anyone and everyone that are halfway decent while paying them incredibly high wages...

Of course the ostensible aim of this policy is the entire notion of "home grown" players which I'm not convinced is going to be helped by the 25 squad limit. I mean when Fabregas is just as "home grown" as say, Theo Walcott, then I'm dubious...
Boogerd_Fan

Indeed "home-grown" has a reliance on the johnny foreigner actually picking England over his real place of birth or family heritage.

What we all know is crap, I forget who it was - i think the Frimpong dude at Arsenal... that now has the chance to pick Ghana or England. Any player going through the ranks as a "home-grown" registered player can still choose to dump England anyway!

I know which one i'd choose to guarantee a chance to win something (and have a 100% chance of making every first 11 at int. level).
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
But what lower division side could possibly pay the wages of say, Robinho? The only way I could see that happening is if the owning club pays at least part (if not more) of the players wages....and in this case, then they are paying the wages of a player who cannot take the pitch for them for at least half the season....


Maybe ironic that you say that Enchantress when Robinho hs spent 6 months at Santos with City paying all or part of his wages.

On the subject of Liverpool - it will be interesting to see if Hodgson can do as well as Rafa did financially on the buying and selling front - I don't think any premiership manager has ever done as well as Rafa with the financial hamstrings he's had to work with? In my opinion, United are about 12 months behind Liverpool financially and their season this year will mirror Liverpool's of last year - it will be interesting to see what happens to Ferguson.

I don't imagine most Liverpool fans will care where the new owners come from as long as they do come - and bring some much needed cash with them, not just a load more debt.
Boogerd_Fan

You're kidding right?

With the exception of Torres most of the signings turned into rotten apples or bit-part squad players despite paying over the odds money for their eventual role in the team (Babel being a prime example)!

Give the same money to Hodgson and he could probably construct 2 decent teams Very Happy

I'm curious to see how it goes, while a clearout was needed, he's still got to work with quite a lot of deadwood from Rafa's era... can he make those players like Babel and Ngog turn potential into reality? He also has to get Skrtel playing well again... the last 6-8 months he's really gone off the boil through injury and then lack of playing time.
cardinal guzman

I am absolutely not kidding BF - no-one has such a record in the prem whilst retaining the same level of performance. One can only imagine what Liverpool would have achieved under Rafa if he'd had a decent sized purse to spend....

Quote:
2004/05

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08


£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: £39m

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m


2009/10

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000


Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000


So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=249365.0
Enchantress

CG - oh I'm aware of the Robinho situation and his loan as well as Santos' desire to extend it. Lets remember though that presently, Citizens are the richest club in the league practically. Long term, would they continue such a practice of lending out players like Robinho who command huge wages....because of the 25 player squad rule? I would think even the rich clubs would see it as wasteful. My suspicion is that it will, not necessarily level the playing field and let say, Blackpool compete with the big 4, but if nothing else, it should prevent the big clubs from hoarding players at the expense of smaller clubs. Granted, it is hard to foresee all the effects or a rule change in advance so I'll reserve judgement till some future point.

BF - I have to agree with you about Rafa. He had some tremendous success because of his onfield tactics and especially approach to european football. but oh my, he made a mess of far too many transfers and ultimately I think this was his undoing. That and his treating the players, even Gerrard, like mere cogs in a machine. I think the lads will be far happier with the new manager.

Rafa's list of flops in the transfer market is quite extensive....Morrientes, Mark Gonzalez, Pennant, Aurelio (rafa knew he had a history of injuries, no surprise, he's been injured), Babel , and my heavens, the Keane fiasco....

Sure he may have gotten quite a bit more for Alonso than what the club paid for him originally. But the reason ALonso submitted a transfer request in the first place was because of how Rafa treated him (and others). I think a good club should keep its best players in their prime....but instead he sold Alonso, even if it was for a profit, then turned around and wasted it on Aquilani - the latest fiasco. There's no way Liverpool finish 7th in the league last year with Alonso bossing their midfield, Gerrard was very distraught over the move I know.
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
, it is hard to foresee all the effects or a rule change in advance so I'll reserve judgement till some future point.


Wise words - me too but I'm not hopeful.

I can't believe what I'm hearing about Rafa - I've been a huge admirer of his since his Valencia days - best manager in the world in my opinion and that includes Taggart and the Ego. That said - you've landed another good 'un in RH!
Boogerd_Fan

Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000


228m

give that to any other Prem manager and they could assemble a smaller squad of 16-18 players each of 10-15m in quality.
Nolte

so are we going to do a fantasy leage for the premiership

i have a team for another forum so it can go in many forums
Enchantress

CG - Oh I dont think Rafa was a bad "manager" per se. He was, I think and many other LFC supporters would agree, a fine tactician and excellent directing his charges from the pitch. I think where Rafa was poor is in managing and spending funds from his transfer kitty. The number of terrible investments is staggering and I think that was his undoing. The other area he was lacking in was in managing players and treating them like machines...he insisted on playing even his best players, like Gerrard who is arguably England best central midfielder....on the wing.

BF....the numbers you show confirm what we LFC supporters had long figured....Rafa was terrible in the transfer market.

Nolte....I'm open to it if someone will organize it here. I've never participated in a football league although I have done so with american football.
smarauder68

what's a good fantasy league with a salary cap?  I'd love to play that.
cardinal guzman

Peter Reid's got a fuckin monkey heed.......

Good start Pilgrim!
Enchantress

BF....since you mentioned being something of a villa fan....it appears O'Neill has resigned effective immediately. I don't know the club nearly as well a a proper supporter like. However I suspect the owners are going to let Milner go and probably young but not replace these players. So my guess is O'Neill had enough and didn't want to be part of the likely fall for the club? What do you think is behind the move?
ventoux

Enchantress wrote:
BF....since you mentioned being something of a villa fan....it appears O'Neill has resigned effective immediately. I don't know the club nearly as well a a proper supporter like. However I suspect the owners are going to let Milner go and probably young but not replace these players. So my guess is O'Neill had enough and didn't want to be part of the likely fall for the club? What do you think is behind the move?

It's all good news for the blue half of the city....  Laughing  Laughing
Nolte

Enchantress wrote:


Nolte....I'm open to it if someone will organize it here. I've never participated in a football league although I have done so with american football.


on premierleague.com justcycling premier

code: 812761-238268

to set up a team - http://fantasy.premierleague.com/
Enchantress

ventoux wrote:
Enchantress wrote:
BF....since you mentioned being something of a villa fan....it appears O'Neill has resigned effective immediately. I don't know the club nearly as well a a proper supporter like. However I suspect the owners are going to let Milner go and probably young but not replace these players. So my guess is O'Neill had enough and didn't want to be part of the likely fall for the club? What do you think is behind the move?

It's all good news for the blue half of the city....  Laughing  Laughing


Good news in Merseyside too Wink

BTW, anyone else think Capello has completely, utterly lost the plot given his team selection for the wed friendly? What I ask, can anyone in England possibly learn in a friendly about Lampard/Gerrard/Terry that isn't already common knowledge? Instead of bringing in the WC retreads, why not include many more young players. It isn't as if any of those stalwarts will even care much given the start of the league in a few days...
Biosphere

[quote="Enchantress"BTW, anyone else think Capello has completely, utterly lost the plot given his team selection for the wed friendly?...[/quote]

The pundits agree. Play from 1h:15m into the stream

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tcn9c

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00tcn9c

Think it works overseas for radio.
Boogerd_Fan

Enchantress wrote:
BF....since you mentioned being something of a villa fan....it appears O'Neill has resigned effective immediately. I don't know the club nearly as well a a proper supporter like. However I suspect the owners are going to let Milner go and probably young but not replace these players. So my guess is O'Neill had enough and didn't want to be part of the likely fall for the club? What do you think is behind the move?


nail on head there, although i'm yet to find the official statements from MON or the club to find out the reasons... those would appear most likely though, not only the strong possibility to lose a player like Milner, but if he was told he couldn't use the money to buy McGeady + 1 more striker, i can understand his concerns.

Martin Laursen (who's done quite a fair bit of work in the media for Villa official website since retiring) made clear that the lack of a decent transfer kitty (even after Milner would be sold) is the reason why he's walked. Saying he wasn't even surprised by that.

But there must be something more than that.. Millner was super last year, but despite playing out of his skin, if someone like Ireland came as part of the City Transfer... who actually IS an attacking box-to-box midfielder rather than someone who's just been put there.. then thats  decent enough exchange for me.

Not wanted, but certainly something i'd settle for - thats even without the extra cash to buy somebody else like McGeady or a striker... funny that days after being linked to K-J Huntelaar this happens... its that kind of player that Villa needed to attract to move forwards, instead this will be a long-hard season just to (similar to Fulham, Everton and the other also-rans) consolidate their top half of the table position.

It's not all bad news - the main long-term concern at Villa has to be the huge wage bill, because most of MONs spends were on proven English players, with big transfers and big wages. Case in point - Shorey has jumped ship to WBA.. its not a problem he's gone, its just giving the many youngsters coming through at Villa a chance to shine, vs. paying big money for a subs-bench full of talent wasted - Sidwell, Shorey, Harewood the list is endless but they're all eating away at Lerners' small fortune.
Mrs John Murphy

Why so shocked at Capello's selections - that is the man through and through. His teams were (AC, Roma and Real) were built on the basis of old experienced players. He was and is not the manager to develop a young team or to bring young players through. I'd guess the average age of his teams must be the wrong side of 30.

If he could have picked the ageing Beckham I am sure he would have done. You can see how he doesn't trust the likes of Walcott etc etc.
smarauder68

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
Why so shocked at Capello's selections - that is the man through and through. His teams were (AC, Roma and Real) were built on the basis of old experienced players. He was and is not the manager to develop a young team or to bring young players through. I'd guess the average age of his teams must be the wrong side of 30.

If he could have picked the ageing Beckham I am sure he would have done. You can see how he doesn't trust the likes of Walcott etc etc.


Why did England pay 6 million pounds for a man the Italians themselves never fancied to manage their own national team?  They preferred Lippi, Sacchi or Old has-beens before entrusting Capello...All Italians knew that Capello won his Scudettos and trophies by merely having the good fortune of guiding the club with the biggest payroll and budget. He was the Joe Torre of Italian football. Got waaaaay too much credit for their championships.
Enchantress

MJM - certainly that's his history but he's in a position now where almost nobody has any confidence in him. I mean the only reason he's likely still has his job is because of the FA's blunder with his contract buyout. That old guard (Lampard/Terry/Gerrard/Cole) may be his preference but they've won nothing. The game means nothing, being essentially a scrimmage. Were he to have selected a young squad, there could be no criticism of him at all...who in England doesn't already know what the old guard can do (and can't do)? And if the young players are rubbish then a game like this lets him make the point and then go back to his favourites.

Even after 2+ years he keeps saying the players aren't mentally tough...isn't that the managers job, to prepare the players for the mental side? Nobody expects Capello to take a kick from the spot, but he ought to have his players ready to do that. I get the distinct impression Capello uses the so-called language barrier to avoid questions and explaining his bad decisions.

Smrauder - because the FA don't know anything about football but are experts at raking in pounds while selling the public on another false hope.
If the FA want to get it right, they should sack Capello and hire MON who would do a better job.
Mrs John Murphy

SM - to be fair - Capello was the only person who wanted the job. The FA got badly burned over SM, they got burned by Venables, and then who else is there? Redkapp? He's a court-case waiting to happen, Allerdyce?

Most managers recognise that the England job is a shit gig. Over-inflated expectations from fans and media. Shitty infrastructure (hardly as if England have a superb crop of youngsters), the FA and the Premier League clubs are far too self-interested to support 'english' players. And who wants to manage a bunch of racists, granny-shaggers and junkies like england anyway.

I like what Blanc is doing in France and refusing to pick anyone who was part of the French World Cup squad. The question is who would England pick and would they be any improvement.
Enchantress

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
SM - to be fair - Capello was the only person who wanted the job. The FA got badly burned over SM, they got burned by Venables, and then who else is there? Redkapp? He's a court-case waiting to happen, Allerdyce?

Most managers recognise that the England job is a shit gig. Over-inflated expectations from fans and media. Shitty infrastructure (hardly as if England have a superb crop of youngsters), the FA and the Premier League clubs are far too self-interested to support 'english' players. And who wants to manage a bunch of racists, granny-shaggers and junkies like england anyway.

I like what Blanc is doing in France and refusing to pick anyone who was part of the French World Cup squad. The question is who would England pick and would they be any improvement.


A shit gig perhaps, but one is massively compensated for that shit...6m pounds for capello to lead England to an even poorer showing than Eriksson! Meanwhile, half the managers of the Latin American national sides like Oscar Tabarez, the Uruguay manager, make less than 50k quid a year.

As far as who would England pick....well, we won't know unless those players are giving a chance no? What's to be gained by playing the same WC underachievers in a friendly? Play the young lads and if they are horrible, then Capello has a readymade excuse for continuing to pick the old guard.

Best thing would be if O"Neill was brought on, I bet he'd do a better job, even with this lot of players.
Mrs John Murphy

So what would your starting 11 be? Who would you play instead of Lampard, Terry, Gerrard etc?
Enchantress

Plenty of choices...just off the top of my head

Hart
Richards, Jagielka, Cahil, Gibbs
Johnson, Wilshere, Parker, Young
Zamora,l Agbonlahor

This is a friendly, not a qualifier, so there's nothing to lose by giving players a full run out. If they are rubbish then what is lost? The friendlies ought to be a place to try new things, new players, and formations...why waste them?
Biosphere

[quote="Enchantress"]. . .  That old guard (Lampard/Terry/Gerrard/Cole) may be his preference but they've won nothing. The game means nothing, being essentially a scrimmage. Were he to have selected a young squad, there could be no criticism of him at all...who in England doesn't already know what the old guard can do (and can't do)? And if the young players are rubbish then a game like this lets him make the point and then go back to his favourites . . . /quote]

There are suggestions that new Wembley (not to mention Capello's contract) costs an awful lot and games like this are as much about bringing in finance as anything else. He needs to play enough of the big names to bring families (£60 for family of 4) through the turnstiles for the night etc. Not sure how that will actually play out after the dismal WC, but your typical 7 year old probably wants to see the old guard?
smarauder68

The Biggest problem I've seen from England over the past 5 years is the lack of a creative MF. Someone who can create goals for others and take on defenders 1 on 1.

Perhaps Tom Cleverly will become that kind of player someday...Players like Milner, Barry simply aren't athletic enough for international competition. Gerrard and Lampard are also a bit stodgy.

England need quicker and more creative players. The Lampard's and Gerrards are holding them back.
Boogerd_Fan

Sm - i think you'll find that when english players have pace they tend to get found out for having lower technique abilities - i'm thinking Lennon, Walcott and Agbonlahor of the new generation... super fast players off the ball, but on it, their end product or output in terms of goals/crosses/successful passes is too low percentage to be regulars ahead of the plodding old generation.
Enchantress

The biggest problems in English football are...

the FA know nothing about football & everything about duping the public, year after year,  out of their quid with the sham that is the national team...

Given the above, the level of coaching, particularly at the youth level, is poor so as BF says, the players lack technical quality that their foreign peers on the continent have.
cardinal guzman

Haha - tonight is a sellout. I can only imagine there are a lot of people intending to get pissed up and hurl abuse for a couple of hours.

I wouldn't waste my money but whatever floats yer boat.
Enchantress

Ha ha, well I admit to watching the match from home. Nil-nil at halftime and england showing their great form of say, the WC match vs. Algeria...

Walcott the best player in the 1st half. Not much else to say about the side.

I almost hope they lose as the embarrassment might prompt them to sack Capello and/or ditch the majority of the holdovers from the WC squad....maybe both!
Boogerd_Fan

Walcott may have been the best player in 1st half but that's not too flattering... the runs i saw him make were mostly with the ball totally out of any kind of control!

Second half (after hungary's goal) a bit more urgency to their play. Of course Gerrard. Who else. If they have to drop some of the old guard, he should be the only 1 to stay in the first 11. Lamps, Terry and the rest should walk away now.

Hart should be 1st choice from now. Just so he gets comfortable with the full int. setup before any important game comes along.

Other good impressions from Gibbs and A. Young although as a Villa fan, i admit that he's a one trick pony, and it looked like Hungary hadn't done their homework.

The rest. Average at best.

The way Hungary cut open the defence on numerous occassions should be giving Capello headaches. They'll steam through the qualifiers again, but get found out very early on @ Euro 2012 unless they can get regular playing time to guys like Dawson who looked a bundle of nerves out there tonight.

Watched with the other 1/2... who was surprised to see that the guy with the funny glasses is still in charge!?!?! Just says it all, if such a decision to keep him in charge even gets on her non-footballing radar!


Offtopic:
Slovakia 1-1 Croatia
i'll take that. We scored first too Wink
Mrs John Murphy

Is Ashley Young going to hook up with Cashley Cole for a bit of online Macking?

Tonight shows why england will never change - 70,000 people willing to pay £60 to watch utter shit from a bunch of people who don't give a shit.

Look at the way that the commentators got on their knees to suck off and big up England, and then we wonder why the players think they are gods gift.
Enchantress

BF....amazing how 10 minutes of brilliance from one player can make fans forget the otherwise pedestrian and dreadful showing for the England squad....again.

I'm happy Gerrard was superb, as a Liverpool supporter it bodes well for my team.

But as for England...Ashely Young was lively, ditto Gibbs, and I liked Harts performance. Then again, you know how it is with England keepers...they have one howler and are banished (Scott Carson anyone?).

And how about Capello's statement on Beckham, where he basically glibly put him out to the pasture? Not that Beckham is some great player, but to basically retire a player like that is another egg in the face of the Capello public relations disaster!


I saw the same old england, with the manager being spared blushes by one brilliant bit of play from a fine player.

They'll be lucky to qualify for euro 2012 and will be quickly eliminated.
Mrs John Murphy

It's only a public relations disaster because Beckham has loads of mates in the media. It is clear that the media has decided that Capello is shit and to blame for everything that is wrong with the team. You can be sure that they'll be bigging up Redknapp before you know it (another one with loads of mates in the media).

Walcott is a typical 'english' player - all pace and no skill.
Enchantress

Reckon I will be disagreeable then.

I think it is a farce for a manager to "retire" a player, the most capped outfield player in the country's history.. in an impromptu interview in what amounts to pigeon english  for allegedly being too old?  Since when does a national side manager "retire" a player? Particularly when he had his lackey Baldini phone up Scholes, who is the same age as Beckham, and try to bring him on for the world cup.

Can you imagine Bert van Marwijk "retiring" van der Sar in broken english in a tv interview?

That Beckham is past it & has been on the squad for a good 2 years too long is besides the point. If you don't want a player on the squad then you don't pick him...that's how it works in every side.

Personally I think Capello is trying to get sacked. He's got a generous bung if/when he gets sacked and given the inter affair before the cup, he knows it. I bet Beckham outlasts Capello in the England squad.
Nolte

Nolte wrote:
Enchantress wrote:


Nolte....I'm open to it if someone will organize it here. I've never participated in a football league although I have done so with american football.


on premierleague.com justcycling premier

code: 812761-238268

to set up a team - http://fantasy.premierleague.com/


just a reminder for people to sign up

ort you'll be giving me a 20 point lead in the race for second behind the other player
Mrs John Murphy

Enchantress - you've fallen for the Beckham hype. He has been a non-factor for about the last 5 years. McClaren had the right idea by getting rid of him. He is basically a better looking version of Terry/Lampard. Basically a player who was picked on reputation rather than performance. He can't run, he can't tackle, he is basically a dead ball specialist.

He was picked largely because of a Faustian pact between himself and the FA. They needed him to be the 'face' of various FA bids ie World Cup, Olympics etc, they need to put bums onto seats to pay off the debts from Wembley etc. He likes the attention. He has always been more of a brand than a player.

Scholes etc is a slightly different situation, it was just before the WC and considering injuries to other players and the thinness of the squad it is logical to approach the likes of Scholes.

We are entering a new cycle of qualifiers - in 2 years time the likes of Lampard will be 34 etc, Beckham will be however old. There is a real need to move on.

My hope is that Capello may well do it more gradually than the scorched earth policy of Blanc. That is to say to drop Beckham, maybe to drop Terry or Lampard and to try to evolve the squad. But who knows.

What is even more depressing is 'Club England' saying they want an inglerlish manager next time...
ventoux

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
What is even more depressing is 'Club England' saying they want an inglerlish manager next time...


... and the FA saying they'll get one!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8915481.stm
Mrs John Murphy

Which goes to show why England will never win anything.

Who was the last english manager to win a European trophy? Paisley? Fagan?

The media has turned on Capello not for results but because he isn't media-friendly. He doesn't give good copy. They want a manager who they are mates with so that means someone like Redknapp despite him having achieved fuck all other than make himself rich and leave every club he's managed in deep financial shit. He makes Venables seem like a paragon of virtue.
Enchantress

BF, others following this thread...what did you make of the first weekend of fixtures?

My club Liverpool....Ecstatic after going up 1 with just 10 men but then the howler in extra time left us with the draw. A fair result I suppose. Mascherano played well, but I'm not sure why Hogdson played Gerrard deep in the midfield in the 1st half. He plays better behind the striker...

Watched City/Spurs....Gareth Bale giving the City defence fits. Interesting choice by Mancini to play 3 def. MF's while Tevez looked very isolated. Spurs deserved the win but all credit to Hart, he was amazing. Looks as though Bellamy leaving Midlands
Boogerd_Fan

I was a very happy man Very Happy  3-0 even against West Ham can be considered great result, even moreso because of the amount of chances we had. I was actually in Birmingham at the time (not at VP though).

I was surprised that Everton (who have been hyped up as a potential CL spot this year LOL) got on the wrong end of another B'burn home win. Albeit through a goaly howler.

Liverpool could've hung on i think. Shame they didn't as Arsenal need to wake up. I also didnt understand why Wenger went with playing Diaby defensively with Eboue in a 5 man midfield, when his best DM - Song... was sitting on the bench. Maybe he had a niggle. Attacking wise, both teams had enough to cause many problems, they'll be wracking in scores like Chelsea, Man U and lol Blackpool against the weaker teams.
Mrs John Murphy

Spurs fail to penetrate Young Boys.
ventoux

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
Spurs fail to penetrate Young Boys.


Oh dear.....  Embarassed
Enchantress

BF...yes, a good victory for Villa, especially in light of the MON flap. Speaking of which, do you think they'll retain the caretaker manager MacDonald? Seems they would otherwise have already appointed a new head man.

BTW, agree there were many surprises....Everton losing at home, Wigan weren't supposed to be good but to give up 4 at home against Blackpool?

Did any of you watch the Spurs game this eve? They looked completely outclassed in the first half. Decent effort in the second half. Typical Tottenham....doing it the hard way
Boogerd_Fan

Enchantress, what're your thoughts on the Liverpool v Timisoara game from tonight Very Happy

I was stuck watching BBC for updates - Slovak TV only had Slovan 0-1 Stuttgart on tonight.
cardinal guzman

Boogie you sound like you've had more wine than me! It was City that played Tiramisu. Battle of the Oil Barons - UAE's versus Romania's.

Sounded like City aren't firing on all cylinders yet, but Super Mario appears to be dynamite - just hope he doesn't explode.
Enchantress

BF...lol @ tiramisu Smile I'm happy Liverpool won even with a mostly reserves side. Joe Cole though, *sigh*, still remains off form with a missed penalty. Frankly, I'm not completely convinced that he's an upgrade over Benayoun...though the English media will insist otherwise. Much as they'll insist that Harry Redknapp is a good manager...laughs... I heard Villa earned a fine draw at Vienna, they should win the tie...

CG - I was thinking much the same at BF's comment about Liverpool playing Timisoara. Anyway, I agree that City aren't a team yet. That is going to take some time for certain. Frankly, I admit to feeling that Mancini is playing an almost "Italian/Serie A" style in the premier league...meaning he picks a very defensive squad in away matches and plays for draws. Odd that he picks what amounts to 3 defensive MF's and largely leaves Tevez alone. If they use that approach against Liverpool (and other big teams) at home, then I suspect they'll have no chance of winning the league, no matter how well their squad comes together.
cardinal guzman

Well, I don't think we've seen what Mancini intends to do yet - he plays defensively as a fall back position, being confident in the ability of our forwards and by and large it works. I think we'll look like a different team once Milner, Super Mario and the other new boys are bedded in.

Shame Boateng and Kolarov got injured first match but the prem is a hard league to get used to and defending against Bale and Lennon was a baptism of fire.
Boogerd_Fan

hehe sorry guys...

i must admit i had managed to polish off a few yesterday

re: Man City... how long before Barry & Millner start regretting their STUPID decision to leave Villa Park? Very Happy
Enchantress

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
hehe sorry guys...

i must admit i had managed to polish off a few yesterday

re: Man City... how long before Barry & Millner start regretting their STUPID decision to leave Villa Park? Very Happy


BF - ha ha, polishing off a few is reason to celebrate if anything Smile

Honestly, I think Milner will very soon. There's more than a fair chance that he won't even get first team football at City. Not that he's the only one in that situation, I mean City's bench could handily beat half the sides in the premier league! At Villa, Milner could have been guaranteed first team football and kept polishing his game, all on a quality side in Villa.

Smells to me like he's just chasing money...
Boogerd_Fan

Ugh...... Sad
maffy

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Ugh...... Sad


some of the season ticket holders i know seemed particularly happy and incredulized this evening. three 6-0s in a weekend. blimey. even bbc radio newcastle didn't think that was on.
Enchantress

BF....heavy defeat for your side there! sorry mate.....I'll repost the question....should the caretaker manager stay on?
Boogerd_Fan

looks like we're not the only team on the ropes at the moment Wink

Hodgson (whom i really like) really ballsed up the formation/tactics there - too attacking, when Liverpool had no ball winners (lucas lol) and Gerrard again forced to play too deep.

City were good for their 3-0 though.. if they play like that at Home for the rest of the year, they may just get the top 4 spot - if they can carry that kind of play away from home too, they might even challenge.. their formation on paper looked waaaay too defensive, but Mancini had the sense to adopt tactics from Inter Milan - with Richards and Lescott the unlikely two, doing the Maicon and Zanetti roles.

Putting De Jong (a former RB or LB at Ajax) and Barry (former LB for Villa) in the central pairing, the defence was super-covered, no room for any Liverpool developments in City's half, and of course very good cover for the fullbacks to get forwards - a contrast compared to how open L'pool were when Johnson got forward without cover.

Ya Ya Toure was superb in the hole - which is where Gerrard should've been, instead of trying to win the ball back from deep cos the rest of his team couldn't get a touch!

As for the Villa - we've sold our two best players in the last two summers. So i'm not too surprised. What would shock me is if Young is still around in 6 months time, because i'm pretty sure the defeats like that at St. James yesterday will continue (it is Villa's 3rd heavy defeat in 2010).

About KMac... i'd give him a chance. He did wonders with the reserve team (winning the reserves league in fact), but he needs to pick a decent first 11 and a few supporting players and stick to them. No bshit like Heskey or Beye and the other also rans. He knows how good the youngsters like Albrighton can be, so give him, Delfuenso, Clark & Bannan the chance to play 1st team football incase of injuries. and SELL HESKEY already! Very Happy
Enchantress

BF....quick response after Liverpool were played off the pitch tonight, eh? No doubt the resident Cardinal will be pleased....(rightly so) Wink

All credit to City though as they were clearly the superior side. I thought Mancini's team selection seemed, once again, was a bit conservative with the 3 defensive MF's, but who can argue with 3-nil?

I understand Hodgson's selection looks a bit daft but in fairness to him, I have an inkling that he, and the rest of the team really, were thrown by what sounds like Mascherano being on strike. Did you hear and know about that? I suspect that the rest of the club were perhaps optimistic after Mascherano's excellent display against Arsenal....maybe they figured he would stay. The squad seemed distraught or disinterested or perhaps both. It was a lifeless display...

No matter as his unwillingness to play explains why Hodgson had to bring in Lucas (*sigh*). Apparently Poulsen isn't quite ready for a full match or picked up a nick in training. Then they didn't even have anyone at LB which is why he used Agger, who should be a centre half, there.

Regardless though I agree, why is Hodgson still playing Gerrard deep in the Alonso role? Ngog was frustrating and too often losing the ball. I would have played Torres up front alone with Gerrard just behind him. Those two are not only the best outfield players we have, but they know how to link up and play off each other.

For City though, I was impressed with Adam Johnson, Milner had a fine debut, and Tevez was lively in the box too. If Mancini finds his best 11 that gel and play well, then they will have a big say in the title.

I'd be surprised if Young is still with Villa come the next transfer window. About the Manager, I do hope he is given a chance. He's been smart in not necessarily calling for the job. Still, a few more defeats like that against Newcastle, and I suspect the supporters will be calling for a new manager. Whatever Villa do, I hope they do not hire Bob Bradley...who would be a yes man for Lerner. T'would be a disservice to that club and their fans.
Boogerd_Fan

Mascherano isn't worth the hassle. He's messed with West Ham, he's messing with Liverpool now. No player can be bigger than any club.

Unfortunately I think Roy is about to get a bit of stick this year, there was a lot of hype over the amazing two seasons fulham have had.. but the hardwork was a longer-period than that.

He's still hampered by dealing with all Rafa's rejects. THe sooner he clears them out the better - but thats unlikely while there is no money to find replacements of higher quality.
cardinal guzman

I missed most of the match - had a long-standing appointment at the velodrome introducing my work colleagues to the wonders of track cycling - it went down well!

Very happy with the result - too hard to draw conclusions about the city team yet but they look better without Silva and with Milner. I still think Liverpool are going to miss Rafa.
Enchantress

BF....Oh I know what you mean about Mascherano but come now, if Kolarov costs £19m, then surely Mascherano is worth more. A £12m, which is what I have read from Barcelona, is absurd. Ironically, no matter what Liverpool get for Mascherano, the worse part is that the money may go towards the debt that the horrendous american owners have accumulated and not towards any new players.

I agree that Hodgson will get some criticism but he's cleaning up a terrible mess left by Rafa and his ill-fated transfers of several years. I still think he ought to sit Ngog and play Gerrard behind Torres.

Maybe the worse thing that has happened is that the Huang bid was taken off the table. Until the club gets a sensible owner, they will struggle.

CG....based on what I saw this eve, City are more than capable of finishing ahead of United. And sorry but I disagree about Rafa, he's left the club in a right mess.
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
CG....based on what I saw this eve, City are more than capable of finishing ahead of United. And sorry but I disagree about Rafa, he's left the club in a right mess.


Time will tell - I expect Rafa to do well in his new club.

I think there's a lot of clubs going to finish above utd! They are financially 12 months behind Liverpool but with a much tattier and aged squad - I'll be surprised if they make 6th this season and when they don't get a champions league spot - tick tock.......
Enchantress

Ha ha, well how could Rafa not do well with Inter....the richest club in Italy, winner of serie A for several years now as well as the champions league last season. Much, much different situation than Liverpool where his bad transfer moves, plus the club's debt, made for a predicament. His strength, imo, was in tactics, especially in champions league and european ties where he led liverpool to some fine victories over clubs with more talent.

I think the cracks are showing with united like you suggest.. They still have some top players on their side. But long term? Scholes & Giggs can't play forever, despite what Capello will have us think.... and the owner's debt is going to hamper what they do in the transfer market. His thinly veiled rant about kamakaze spending tells me he is more than a slight bit envious of the likes of Chelsea and City with their bottomless coffers
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
the worse part is that the money may go towards the debt that the horrendous american owners have accumulated and not towards any new players.


And that encapsulates Rafas dilema - he found himself at the helm of a 'sell to buy' club - a tricky tightrope that he teetered along and kept you all from falling into the ravine for several years, a job he did so well in fact, that no-one noticed the dire financial weight that was slowly but surely dragging him down. Only his pride and love for the fans stopped him from upping and leaving the chairmen and Liverpool to it 3 years ago - like MON has just done to the Villains.

Or that's the view from here.

(p.s. I think Bradley is also great manager - but he'd need a good scouting network and a good academy)
Enchantress

I already documented a number of Rafa's horrible transfer moves earlier. He's a fine coach and game tactician, but he's not someone I'd trust with a big transfer kitty. The history shows he's made bad choices.

And what makes Bradley a great manager? What has he ever won or done? In fact, most people in american football agree that the team underachieved. They consistently came out unprepared and went down a goal or two in almost every game. Then his team selection was stubborn and he stuck with players who didn't produce (Altidore) or picked players who were clearly not match fit.... Bradley has no business managing a premiership side...
Boogerd_Fan

To be honest i don't want Bradley. I'd take Jol, but he's another who doesn't like to be at a selling club (ironic being the current Ajax boss).

KMac isn't bad, he just needs to remember home games are for 442 and attacking football. away games are all about 451 and getting Gabby back fit, so we refer back to MON's plan A again.

***

I'm all for Utd taking a plunge. It's never easy to see 1 particular individual or team dominate so comprehensively as it detracts from the spectacle of the sport.

Thing is, the size of that club, even if they fell off their perch - there is still incentive for young, dynamic players like hernandez to come across to Utd as a starting point for Euro career... so i think they'll get by this saga.

It's all the U.S. owners causing the mess in EPL... thank god Randy Lerner has some common sense!
Enchantress

Jol at least has credentials in big leagues and success in those. Although it seems he's always looking towards his next manager job. Anyway, they ought to give Kmac more time. At least until the Jan transfer window.

As far as United...given their debt and situation they are, and how ironic is this, on their way to becoming like Liverpool. In short, a bankrupt aristocrat.....A former dominant power besieged by debt and financial woes while new money keeps Chelsea & City at the top.

I agree by the way about how the league loses something when a couple of squads dominate. For the last 6 years if memory serves me right, Chelsea and United have won the league every season. It has almost become a La Liga type of situation where Real & Barcelona take turns winning the league every year while everyone else plays and hopes for 3rd and a CL place.

I'm curious, do you (BF, CG, others) think the league would benefit from changes to make it more balanced as in some US sports leagues like American Football? In that league, while some teams with excellent management and planning do tend to stay up for longer, there is more variety in who succeeds. Of course the obvious caveat is the in proper football, relegation is a consideration that doesn't exist in american sport. Sadly though the relegation battle has become far more intriguing than who will win the title in the premier league.
Mrs John Murphy

The reason why 'balancing action' like the draft, salary caps etc, work well in US sports: baseball, NFL and NHL, is that with the exception of the KHL in hockey, there is no where else for the players to go.

The argument which is always thrown out by clubs like Chelsea, Man Utd, etc, is to wrap themselves in the flag and say 'if there were a salary cap, then all the best players would go to Spain, Russia, etc where there was no salary cap'.

Any agreement to introduce a salary cap would need to be done on a global basis and you may well end up with a split in football as those with money take their ball and go home with it.

Countries which have 'successful' leagues don't want to see the gravy train end, they have enough money and of course the fact that success begats more money means they have no interest in spreading the wealth.

The Premier League was formed because clubs wanted to keep the money for themselves, they keep on talking about a Euro-Super League to keep the money to themselves.

Agents, Players, the clubs etc, none of the ones with power want anything which dilutes their power and wealth.
Enchantress

MJM - well made point!

Obviously a cap on wages in England would might well in a migration from the players to the continent and the rival leagues. If my recollection serves right, we've already seen small bouts of this at various times as a result of tax standards in various countries.

I'm sure the biggest clubs would do all in their power to maintain their hold on the sport. It would be daft to think they'd willingly accept a compromise in their current standing.

If it were done globally then things might work but what entity could do that and overcome the challenge by the world's big clubs?

The practical/pragmatic angle covered, from an ideal perspective do you lot think a more balanced league (meaning more teams able to realistically win the league) with several clubs closely matched would be an improvement or do you prefer to see a handful of dominant sides that win the league every year?
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
from an ideal perspective do you lot think a more balanced league (meaning more teams able to realistically win the league) with several clubs closely matched would be an improvement or do you prefer to see a handful of dominant sides that win the league every year?


That's a bit of a daft question E. If our team isn't dominant we want a level playing field. If our team is dominant then we want to maintain the status quo.

From the perspective of a City fan, I feel slightly aggreived after supporting what realistically is everyone's favourite joke team through it's worst period, to find that when we suddenly have the chance of playing the rich teams at their own game and enjoying some success - that the goalposts are being moved.
Enchantress

cardinal guzman wrote:


That's a bit of a daft question E. If our team isn't dominant we want a level playing field. If our team is dominant then we want to maintain the status quo.

From the perspective of a City fan, I feel slightly aggreived after supporting what realistically is everyone's favourite joke team through it's worst period, to find that when we suddenly have the chance of playing the rich teams at their own game and enjoying some success - that the goalposts are being moved.


Daft? You think? I don't see it that way. I mean being a Liverpool supporter, my club has been one of the "big" clubs, "big 4" until recently. So I'm not coming from the perspective of a yo-yo or mid-table club that can never aspire to finish in the top 4, hence some sort of motive to bring down the bigger sides.

The thing with City is a familiar question...what happens if/when the money/interest runs out on the part of the Sheikh? I may be naive, but I don't think one can spend £200 million every transfer window forever...

I just believe that in any sport, especially a team sport, that more competition makes it a more attractive proposition. The squads that are well organized, with good management, and good academies like West Ham for example, would likely be the best sides in case of some league-wide wage limitation.
Boogerd_Fan

Two decades ago we were talking about two teams Arsenal and Liverppol.

A decade ago we were talking about two teams. Arsenal and Man Yoo.

A couple of years ago we were talking about two teams. Man Yoo and Chelsea.

What has changed?

Maybe the teams from 9th downwards are really just fighting for survival more than anything else in the League (as most of those 11 teams have been promoted at least once in the last 5-6 years!) The other 8 teams, have been secure in the Prem since Day One more or less..

The key for the little teams to come good is not wage caps, funky transfer drafts or anything like that. Fulham, Bolton, Blackburn - consistency at staying up = cash = better players = greater chance of survival. Repeat... until they're establish Prem teams.
cardinal guzman

Enchantress wrote:
I mean being a Liverpool supporter, my club has been one of the "big" clubs, "big 4" until recently. So I'm not coming from the perspective of a yo-yo or mid-table club that can never aspire to finish in the top 4, hence some sort of motive to bring down the bigger sides.


With respect, I think you actually are coming from the perspective of a mid-table club.

Quote:
The thing with City is a familiar question...what happens if/when the money/interest runs out on the part of the Sheikh? I may be naive, but I don't think one can spend £200 million every transfer window forever...


With the new regulations coming into force this season and next, City have had to accelerate their spending - before the door was slammed shut. There was never any intention to continually spend spend spend. Sheikh Mansour has just begun a 1 billion pound investment programme in Beswick - he is there for the long haul.

Quote:
I just believe that in any sport, especially a team sport, that more competition makes it a more attractive proposition.


Me too. But as there's never been a level playing field, I'm glad City are getting a chance to have a go.

Quote:
The squads that are well organized, with good management, and good academies like West Ham for example, would likely be the best sides in case of some league-wide wage limitation.


No chance - whichever teams had won stuff in the previous 10 years would benefit the most from a wage cap as all things being equal - players want to play for prestige teams with big reputations because that is where the sponsor money is.
Mrs John Murphy

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
Two decades ago we were talking about two teams Arsenal and Liverppol.

A decade ago we were talking about two teams. Arsenal and Man Yoo.

A couple of years ago we were talking about two teams. Man Yoo and Chelsea.

What has changed?

Maybe the teams from 9th downwards are really just fighting for survival more than anything else in the League (as most of those 11 teams have been promoted at least once in the last 5-6 years!) The other 8 teams, have been secure in the Prem since Day One more or less..

The key for the little teams to come good is not wage caps, funky transfer drafts or anything like that. Fulham, Bolton, Blackburn - consistency at staying up = cash = better players = greater chance of survival. Repeat... until they're establish Prem teams.


The thing is that you generally have had a few teams in any given period who burned brightly and then faded away.

Early Prem league was dominated by Leeds, Blackburn and to a lesser extent Newcastle, as well as Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool.

Chelsea got their oil rich baron when it they hadn't they would have gone out of business.

This started (or rather intensified) a financial arms race in the Premier League. Which has ultimately ended up with Leeds and Newcastle almost going under, while Man Utd and Liverpool are saddled with debt, while Arsenal have remained financially ok, they have been unable to compete with the super-rich, Chelsea and Man City have their rich backers, but of course, no one knows how long their interest will last.

I think the point is that in the 1970's and even into the 1980's you had many teams who with the benefit of a good manager could challenge for the title. They might have only had a small window of a few years, but without things like Bosman (which has meant rival challenger squads have been easily and cheaply broken by the richer dominant teams) and the financial hegemony of the few it was easier for an 'outsider' team to challenge. Teams like Ipswich, Forest, Derby, Leeds (under Revie), later Watford and Wimbledon, didn't have rich chairmen to bankroll them, but what they did have was very good (or tactically good) managers, (Robson, Clough, Revie). You can not imagine a team like Watford going from Div 4 to 2nd in the 1st division in 5 years these days unless they were willing to spend almost 200 million pounds on players.

Ultimately, the financial arms race has killed off any chances of Liverpool or Arsenal winning the league for the next 10 years. Man Utd are about at the end of their run - both in terms of their squad and financially. So that means get used to a Chelsea/Man City duopoly until the collapse in oil prices/arrest/boredom sets in.

BTW - I did find Mourinho complaining about Man City's wealth a bit rich coming from a man who has managed Chelsea and is now managing Real Madrid.
Boogerd_Fan

I do agree with you if extending the period to before the introduction of the Premier Lg.

To say no-one can go from 4th tier to the top league is nonsense tho.. Blackpool spring to mind. Granted they aren't going to finish second. But the consecutive promotions does still happen occasionally.
Enchantress

CG - ha ha, getting a wee bit big headed now? Liverpool's worst ever finish in the premier league was 8th.... And this in an era where we can all acknowledge the club is not longer dominant. This you figure, makes them a mid-table club? Meanwhile, City were down in the third tier of english football barely 10 years ago. Today thanks to the sheikh, are the richest club in the world. And as was mentioned before, what will the club be without the oil money? What will chelsea be without the russian tycoon? Back to where they were before the windfall in all likelihood

Now getting on the real subject at hand...it is clear as MJM has suggested that money has changed the league significantly. Whereby in previous eras, superior management, tactics, preparation, and good academies would give many's the club an excellent chance of success, now to win the league is impossible for all but what, 2 clubs? And not merely any clubs, but the richest clubs in the league and among the wealthiest in the world.

I've no issue with foreign ownership, but the question is what happens to the balance and integrity of the league if or when that money disappears (whether it is domestic or foreign)? We're seeing another asian billionaire now lining up a bid for Blackburn. If successful, then we'll likely be talking about Blackburn making the front pages with another new mega transfer intake. Or more directly, what if this big chinese bid for liverpool had been successful and brought with it a massive transfer budget? In short, it becomes more a competition of who has the most quid than the best system, best manager, or best academy.

Mourinho like Ferguson with his nonsensical "kamikaze spending" rant, has a short and selective memory.
cardinal guzman

Heh - big headed, absolutely not. As a blue, I'm expecting things to go tits up any time. We have a chance, yet historically we are very good at blowing our chances. But realistically I think Liverpool will finish mid-table or at least, be competing with 7 or 8 teams to finish above mid-table.
maffy

don't disagree with the thrust of the point either, mjm. it'd take proper money/rich benefactor already in place for a newly promoted to be competitive in the prem.

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
You can not imagine a team like Watford going from Div 4 to 2nd in the 1st division in 5 years these days unless they were willing to spend almost 200 million pounds on players.


Boogerd_Fan wrote:
To say no-one can go from 4th tier to the top league is nonsense tho.. Blackpool spring to mind. Granted they aren't going to finish second. But the consecutive promotions does still happen occasionally.


if i were to deliberately ignore the finishing 2nd part of the equation, i'd be tempted to offer some chartsengraphs linkies

figure1 figure2 figure3

that third url has some interesting buttons to click

according to bottom paragraph here, city were the the third fastest after swansea(77-81) and wimbledon(82-86)

even though imminent collapse has supposedly been averted, mr bullard, who's head is possibly made of cheese and knees made of glass, has no squad number and is probably getting rather good at golf. word is that with two years left on a 45k per week contract (go on, times that by two years) he would get a 3k per week raise for every fifteen games plays for the club. played thirteen, i believe...

Enchantress wrote:
I've no issue with foreign ownership, but the question is what happens to the balance and integrity of the league if or when that money disappears (whether it is domestic or foreign)? We're seeing another asian billionaire now lining up a bid for Blackburn. If successful, then we'll likely be talking about Blackburn making the front pages with another new mega transfer intake. Or more directly, what if this big chinese bid for liverpool had been successful and brought with it a massive transfer budget? In short, it becomes more a competition of who has the most quid than the best system, best manager, or best academy..


Mrs John Murphy wrote:
The Premier League was formed because clubs wanted to keep the money for themselves, they keep on talking about a Euro-Super League to keep the money to themselves.


it was never meant to be a league with balance and integrity. it just utilises the long history and the supporters to sustain it's own and a media company's symbiotic monopolies.
Mrs John Murphy

Boogerd_Fan wrote:
I do agree with you if extending the period to before the introduction of the Premier Lg.

To say no-one can go from 4th tier to the top league is nonsense tho.. Blackpool spring to mind. Granted they aren't going to finish second. But the consecutive promotions does still happen occasionally.


Indeed they do, but Blackpool and Wigan both had sugar daddies to help them on their rise.

Other things to think about - when Villa won the league they used 14 players. I think the current Man Utd squad is 64.

The whole format of the league and European competition is set up to benefit the rich and to stop 'other' clubs from being able to break their monopoly. Unless you have a super-rich backer you have no-chance.

Take the Champions League, we have qualifiers (to weed out 'little clubs' because they'd rather have a Liverpool or Spurs who came fourth than a Dynamo Minsk), then we have the group stages (to weed out the small clubs a second time). Where as in the past a 'big' team could be turned over by a small team over two legs, the fact that to advance to the next stage you need to play 6 games means that even if a 'big' team does get turned over away to Minsk etc, they can still qualify.

You won't see a Steaua Bucharest, or Dynamo Kiev, Malmo, Gothenburg etc in a European final ever again unless they get themselves a super-rich sugar daddy (as St Petersberg have) because the shear volume of games means that even a decent run won't be enough in the long run to get you to the final.

But why should those with power care - like the ASO who keep on churning out shitty stages in the TDF, as long as the money keeps on coming in, who cares about the quality of the product?

Oh and you'll see pigs flying before the likes of Real, Man Utd etc get kicked out of Europe http://www.guardian.co.uk/footbal...6/michel-platini-champions-league
Enchantress

CG....ha ha, I was merely having a go at you Smile While it is quite early, I think this season, I will be rightly shocked if Liverpool finish in the top 4. Arsenal are better, so are United, Chelsea are in a whole other leaguel, and City have played us off the pitch a fortnight ago. It reflects the state of Liverpool's unsteady financial situation. For me, with what they have invested, City ( or perhaps more correctly, the Sheikh) cannot settle for anything less than a serious title challenge.

BF...tough result for Villa tonight mate. It isn't looking favorable for K-Mac. Our tie went OK but it was a real labor for us in turkey and there was a great shortage of any creativity beyond Cole.

MJM - in summary, the clubs with billionaire backing are the ones who can win their leagues (given the length of the campaign) and more than likely the only sides that can win the champions league. Where does that leave most fans? Hoping that another millionaire owner buys their club where history or acadmies or managers mean little and money is the decider...?

I know some sides have utterly failed when trying to "buy" themselves a title ( Leeds, even Hearts in the SPL) but overwhelmingly the best sides in the top leagues are the biggest clubs. La Liga basically has its own "old firm" with barca & madrid, similarly premier league has been that way too with United & Chelsea....though United look to be replaced by City soon.
Boogerd_Fan

2nd time in a week, the only thing i have to say is Ugh.

Tale of two teams tonight. One with Gabby, one without. Now he's picked up another knock, i'm kind of scared how many Everton can put past us Very Happy

Defence is like a open barn door at the minute. But then again, its been a different 4 each time. Hopefully some stability can come in when Cuellar and Collins are back fit.

the 'pool were well lucky Razz
smarauder68

FIFA should oversee a "Salary Cap" of some sort...Perhaps 50 to 75 million euros per season for a squad of 25.  No team should be able to use more than 25 players in a season, unless they have catastrophic injuries, in which case they could promote players receiving the minimum from their youth teams.

Follow the model used by the NFL...it promotes parity and for the most part, almost any team can reach the playoffs from season to season.
Mrs John Murphy

smarauder68 wrote:
FIFA should oversee a "Salary Cap" of some sort...Perhaps 50 to 75 million euros per season for a squad of 25.  No team should be able to use more than 25 players in a season, unless they have catastrophic injuries, in which case they could promote players receiving the minimum from their youth teams.

Follow the model used by the NFL...it promotes parity and for the most part, almost any team can reach the playoffs from season to season.


How would you stop say Man Utd, Chelsea, Real, Juve, Bayern etc from defecting and starting their own salary cap free league and how would you stop them from cherry picking the best players?
Enchantress

Ignoring the superfluous post..

Anyway....

Europa League looks like it might be a useful contest.

CG.....City get Juve. More famous these days for having a cadre of racist supporters & match fixing, Juve should still give City a bit of a test in Italy. While liverpool get romanian side SB & serie A Napoli in our draw. I know some managers slag off this competition (MON with Villa last year comes to mind), but I hope the British sides contest them seriously.

City & Liverpool's squads for last nights ties truly put things in perspective....we were without our senior players, Torres & Gerrard hence replacing them with N'gog & Poulsen....meanwhile at Eastlands, Tevez & Milner sit and City bring on Adebayor & Silva. Embarrassment of the riches & why City have depth that no other side in the league has.

BF....heh, no we weren't lucky,N'gog was wasteful (as usual) and we just worked harder than needed to win. Mind you, this wasn't even Fenerbache of the Turkish league that we beat.

So with the chairman almost surely to call time on KMac....who do you fancy or think they'll bring on to manage?
Boogerd_Fan

rather dumb move of Mancini to play Adebayor if the guy wants to leave or is surplus, he's just become a lot less attractive to all the decent clubs in Europe now that he's cup-tied.

If I was Mancini, i'd be getting rid asap. If there is one guy who will start bitching about being on the bench its gonna be Ade.
Enchantress

Adebayor? Sure the lad can actually play and is useful on the pitch. But my, he's a bottler if ever I saw one....not worth the trouble. Frankly, what did he expect signing for City with that squad? Many of those egos are going to be stuck on the bench...not to mention cup-tied like you say for playing in a bit match
smarauder68

Mrs John Murphy wrote:
smarauder68 wrote:
FIFA should oversee a "Salary Cap" of some sort...Perhaps 50 to 75 million euros per season for a squad of 25.  No team should be able to use more than 25 players in a season, unless they have catastrophic injuries, in which case they could promote players receiving the minimum from their youth teams.

Follow the model used by the NFL...it promotes parity and for the most part, almost any team can reach the playoffs from season to season.


How would you stop say Man Utd, Chelsea, Real, Juve, Bayern etc from defecting and starting their own salary cap free league and how would you stop them from cherry picking the best players?


Tradition...they could break away but it would end badly with connection to the UEFA Champions League....the prestige of the Champions League and domestic trophies would keep things in tact...many of the owners would probably prefer a salary cap....in fact most would.

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