justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index justcycling.myfastforum.org
Just Cycling
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sticky Articles
Transfers 2018
2017 Season
Comments and problems thread
Cycling on TV & Internet
The Cobblestone Fantasy Cycling League
Smarauder Trophy - Running Total 2017
Smaurauder Trophy - Calendar 2017
Popular Topics
TdF 17, Stages 16-18: The Alpine Hike
Giro 2017:Dolce,Cafe and Grappa! Stages 16-21May 23rd - 28th
Tour 2017, Stages 1-4: Not quite the Lowlands, 1st-4th Jul
TdF 17, Stages 14-15: Something for Le Weekend, monsieur?
FPs for GC etc and Week 1 of Le Tour, starts 1st July
TdF 17, Stages 19-21: We'll Always Have Paris...
TdF 17, Stages 10-13: 11th-14th July - To the Bastille
FPs for Week 2 of Le Tour, stages 8 to 14 incluxive
Top posters
HuwB 14885
Bartali 13545
kathy 12904
CapeRoadie 10191
Mrs John Murphy 8673
Biosphere 8618
Nolte 6808
Slapshot 3 6587
Fontfroide 6187
smarauder68 5365
gerry12ie 5287
SlowRower 5008
Sooty 4913
bianchigirl 4726
cardinal guzman 4659
Boogerd_Fan 4622
Ralphnorman 4323
crash48 4283
mr shifter 4117
cyclingtv 3854
berck 3768
sheeponabike 3723
last km 3593
bbnaz 3515
naspa 3505
Scottish Independence - what do you think?
Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Should Scotland be an independent country?
yes
45%
 45%  [ 5 ]
no
45%
 45%  [ 5 ]
don't know
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 11

Author Message
pantanifan



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 715


Location: land of the magyars

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Scottish Independence - what do you think?  Reply with quote

So it's one year until the Scottish referendum on becoming an independent country. I'm half-English, half-Scottish (tend to feel more English as I was born there and spent my childhood there), and would probably vote "yes" to independence, though I don't live in Scotland and won't have a vote...

Any views/comments?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MAILLOT JAUNE



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2556



PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm Scottish but have spent approximately half my life living outside Scotland. I am fiercely proud to be Scottish and when I was younger I wanted independence. Now, however, I do not feel that it would be a good idea from a financial/administrative point of view. I'm not eligible to vote either, but if I was, I'd vote No. There is not enough information about how it will actually work and I feel it is far too important a decision for people to decide based on the lack of information.
"They may take away our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"
_________________
"I trust no-body, not even myself"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAILLOT JAUNE wrote:
"They may take away our oil, but they'll never take our freedom!"


I've taken liberty of editing your quote to make it more topical. Smile
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MAILLOT JAUNE



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2556



PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Wish I'd thought of that one!!!!
_________________
"I trust no-body, not even myself"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
berck
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 3768


Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't aware that this was going on. I've visted both Scotland and England. I noticed the following in Scotland.

Lake is a Loch
Bay is a Fjord
Burn is a stream

It's as if those Scottish have a different word for everything... Wink

How old is new? Who knows in Scotland. The Old Course at St. Andrews was built during the 1200's. The New Course was built int he 1400's.

When Quebec in Canada was wanting independence. I heard that the rest of Canada was ready to give it to them, until they heard Quebec's financial demands to essentially be paid to leave the rest of Canada. What I remember hearing was, fine if you want to leave the rest of Canada, but don't expect us to pay you.

Anyway, not knowing any particulars on how Scotland would reform as a nation, I have no opinion on this.
_________________
Do, or do not. There is no try.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
gerry12ie



Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5287


Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I though Donald Trump had bought it anyway?

*ducks
_________________
"I'm playing all the right notes. But not necessarily in the right order."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MAILLOT JAUNE



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2556



PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerry12ie wrote:
I though Donald Trump had bought it anyway?

*ducks

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
_________________
"I trust no-body, not even myself"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13545


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted yes ... so all the scottish politicians can mess Scotland up instead of my country! Smile

On a serious note, I'm not sure why I don't get to vote whether I want Scotland in the Union?
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MAILLOT JAUNE



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2556



PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because you're Italian and you know what the politics in Italy are like????!!!  Wink  Wink  Wink
_________________
"I trust no-body, not even myself"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13545


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I was MJ! Smile

The English don't get a vote on splitting up the union because it would get passed whereas the Scots are too smart to vote for independence.
_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MAILLOT JAUNE



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 2556



PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The English don't get a vote, because the English would vote for the Scots to stay in the Union! Either to piss us off because they know most Scots would vote for independence or because they want to keep our oil !!!!  Wink  Wink  Wink  Wink
_________________
"I trust no-body, not even myself"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Slapshot 3
Site Admin


Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 6587


Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a big NO, simply because I dread the thought of that clown Salmond in charge. I don't think Scotland is mature enough to be an independent nation despite my attempts to rebuild Hadrians Wall as a teenager... Wink

While I support the SNP and the fact that Scotland is doing pretty well with the ever reducing resources we have, I can't help but think going on our own would be financial suicide.

The oil thing is the biggy, who do you believe when it comes to the REAL revenues, I believe neither the SNP nor the UK government but would look at Norway and this place to see the real effect of Oil. Governments are lying to us when they tell the real values of the resource.

The UK is better as a sum of all the nations not as a disparate group of individuals.

PS No fjords in Scotland Berck, bays or sea lochs, Fjords are a Scandinavian thing
_________________
Don't give a damn about the peripheral shit anymore....just let me see some good bike racing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
berck
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 3768


Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slapshot 3 wrote:

PS No fjords in Scotland Berck, bays or sea lochs, Fjords are a Scandinavian thing


First time I saw the term was when I was visiting Scotland. I saw a map of the land and saw it used. It's been a while since I've been there now.

Anyway, I just like to point out that there is at least one Fjord in Scotland... Wink
_________________
Do, or do not. There is no try.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Slapshot 3
Site Admin


Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 6587


Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

berck wrote:
Slapshot 3 wrote:

PS No fjords in Scotland Berck, bays or sea lochs, Fjords are a Scandinavian thing


First time I saw the term was when I was visiting Scotland. I saw a map of the land and saw it used. It's been a while since I've been there now.

Anyway, I just like to point out that there is at least one Fjord in Scotland... Wink


FFS!! I should have clicked!!! it is rather nice!!
_________________
Don't give a damn about the peripheral shit anymore....just let me see some good bike racing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fontfroide



Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 6187


Location: Herault, France

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

berck wrote:

Burn is a stream

It's as if those Scottish have a different word for everything... Wink
.


Life being a bit more complicated than one might think, in Yorkshire, a stream is a beck. In Michigan we called it a creek, or a crick when I was a kid.  Gills, or ghylls, seem to have rather steep banks, as I recall.

Wiki "A stream is a body of water [1] with a current, confined within a bed and stream banks. Depending on its locale or certain characteristics, a stream may be referred to as a branch, brook, beck, burn, creek, "crick", gill (occasionally ghyll), kill, lick, mill race, rill, river, syke, bayou, rivulet, streamage, wash, run or runnel."
_________________
Politics and Cycling in the South of France
http://thomasvasil.wordpress.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on topic, there appear to be many key financial items - other than oil - that have not been resolved and won't be before the vote on independence, such as:

- Who takes on the liabilities of RBS?

- What share of the UK debt pile would Scotland inherit?

- Would all the companies currently HQ'd in Scotland (and assumed to pay corporation tax to Scotland if independent) stay HQ'd there?

- What would the cost of Scotland's government debt be? Life being as it is, investors would most likely view a small, "start-up" country as more risky than the UK, with a correspondingly higher cost of debt.

Tricky to know how anyone could make a properly informed choice given the above and there's doubtless a lot more detail related devil as well.

I assume that despite Cameron appearing pro-Union, he really wants to get rid of Scotland and its 50 or so Labour MPs, but can't appear too eager.
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fontfroide



Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 6187


Location: Herault, France

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SR,
Having listened to a few debates about costs and benefits and how this or that future development might or might turn out, it is pretty clear that no one knows the answer to ANY of your questions.  Those who think that Scotland should stay UK, say it is a financial bust.  Those who think Scotland should go on its own, say Scotland would be better off.  Honestly, I don't think anyone knows.  To me the debate closely resembles debates about Europe and the UK, based on some kind of financial cost benefit analysis and some kind of false sense of "sovereignty and independence".  There is never any answer to the quantifiable questions.  NO real surprise at all.  Even at the most basic level, do you have any idea at all what kind of life your pension will buy you when you retire.  Answer .  We just don't know any more.

So the question is down to what do Scots want for Scotland, run by Scots for Scots or not.  Scotland will never be isolated and independent, no country is.  I think Scotland would make a rather nice little country, nice size, not too many people, couple of grand cities, people who like their country, some good schools and universities, no big history of empire or oppressing people, fine health care, nice traditions, lovely geography, a bit of oil, good tourism prospects, it would be a fine country.  Probably.  The question is is nothing to do with one leader of one party or predictions of how tricky financial questions will be solved.  No one knows about stuff like that.

I hope they decide to try and make it as a Scottish country.  I would love to see how they do it.  Having met or lived with many Scottish people in my life, I have found very many of them really smart, good with grammar, well educated and with a cute accent.  a few seem to be not like that and have an impenetrable accent, but hey, variety is the spice of life.

Wink
_________________
Politics and Cycling in the South of France
http://thomasvasil.wordpress.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlowRower



Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5008


Location: 62 West Wallaby Street, Wigan

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fontfroide wrote:
There is never any answer to the quantifiable questions.


I'd have to disagree with that - the party underwriting the RBS liabilities will have to be indentified and the split of the existing UK national debt will have to be quantified at some point if Scotland does "jump ship". They are not unfathomable concepts, as they will simply have to be negotiated. So far, the only such concept that has been discussed is oil, which will run out soon, whereas RBS will be around for ever, or at leasst its liabilities will be!

The point is that the two questions:

"Do you want Scotland to be an independent country with full responsibility to underwrite RBS's liabilities"; and

"Do you want Scotland to be an independent country with RBS liabilities split pro-rata according to population"

are very differnt indeed. Not that the questions would be posed that way, obviously.

Personally, I'm in favour of independence if the majority vote for it, though I think fear of the unknown will prevail.
_________________
You don't like cheese? Not even Wensleydale?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fontfroide



Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 6187


Location: Herault, France

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The various ways that debts have been dealt with throughout the world, in recent times have been legion.  Debts can be cancelled, rates cut, payment left for later, loads of ways.  Until you know the exact way and how it will work over the next years, then you can't figure out how much it will cost.  And you can't figure out how it will be dealt with over the next ten years, so you can't get clear answers.  Look how Iceland dealt with debts, they jut didn't pay.  Iceland still exists.

I also am a bit puzzled why the debts of a huge global bank like RBS, with savers and investments everywhere, is the responsibility of only the Scottish people at large.  Makes no sense.  Debts that were created by bad banking decisions should not be a good reason to stop thinking about independence (or as much independence as possible anyway).  Debt money and bank money is nothing to do with the money you and I buy food with.  We cannot create money by signing a paper, banks can.  Huge difference.
_________________
Politics and Cycling in the South of France
http://thomasvasil.wordpress.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bartali



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 13545


Location: Bartalishire

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fontfroide wrote:
So the question is down to what do Scots want for Scotland, run by Scots for Scots or not.


Why is that the question?  Why is the question not put to the rest of the Union as to whether we want Scotland to be part of the Union?  What gives the Scots the right to pull out?  I don't have the right to opt out of the Union.


_________________
OGGI CI DAREMO UNA BOTTA - F.COPPI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    justcycling.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> The Coffee Lounge All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum