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OLD THREAD FOR REFERENCE: BASSO ARE WE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE

 
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: OLD THREAD FOR REFERENCE: BASSO ARE WE TOO QUICK TO JUDGE  Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2148575?thread=3390453

Message 1 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 23, 2006

There seems to be a consensus on these boards that Basso, Ullrich et al are guilty. In reality, Basso hasn’t as yet been charged with anything and the Danish press report that the president of the Italian cycling federation has stated, that from the documents he have seen, there are not sufficient elements to accuse Basso. The president thinks that Fuentes could be fabricating the relationship with Basso, to make himself more important in certain circles.
From what I have read I don’t see that there is a sufficient case to ruin a man’s career. Nevertheless, whether or not Basso is guilty in practice, I find it hard to believe that the authorities will be able to present a sufficiently water tight case in the absence of a ‘smoking gun’.

Even a DNA test would be inconclusive. If Basso delivers a DNA sample and it turns out not to match Fuentes blood bank, all those on a witch hunt will still say that the reason is that Basso's blood was not present because it was delivered to some race he took part in. And if they find blood from Basso without any illegal drugs in it, it does not prove that he was doped by Fuentes; he could have (say) given it to him for legitimate scientific reasons to improve his training. Just because Fuentes is involved in blood doping doesn’t mean that’s all he did. Even if they find ‘doped’ blood from Basso in the lab of Fuentes it could be that Basso gave it to him for reasons than doping and Fuentes ‘experimented’ on it without the knowledge of Basso. I’m not saying these are likely scenarios, but I will be surprised if he can be convicted on the facts that are currently public.


Message 2 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

It's very difficult and we'll never have full details of all of the evidence against Basso o- regardless of whether he's exonerated or banned.

In my opinion if a link is established between Basso and Fuentes (or any rider for that matter) then they have to be banned. It's becoming more obvious (as he himself said)that Fuentes ran a systematic doping scheme although he preferred to refer to it as treating his patients. So for my money you have to ban those where a link is shown if the system and the sport are to have any integrity. There'd be too much doubt over performances if the riders were left to compete.

In terms of evidence - I think Besonders clarified it earlier that they need to have a pre-ponderence of evidence to 'convict' on a doping offence so I don't think you have to have cast iron proof - seems that if all the fingers point in the direction of there being a link then that will be sufficient.
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Message 3 - posted by Nuvolari1 (U1731570) , Aug 23, 2006

Yes. Despite all this none of them had the guts to come forward for a DNA test.
They are suspended and expelled by their team, I am quit sure they know a little more than we do.
We can always find an excuse for a rider we like. But the facts stack against them.
I would say let them all come forward and explain what the hell is going on. I am tired of talking about cycling and doping together.

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Message 4 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

I think that was the quick route to make all the suspicion go away - DNA test - the blood isn't mine end of story. I think so far only one rider has actually suggested that (the Australian Alan Wilson??) and nothing has actually been done to help him clear his name sadly.
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Message 5 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 23, 2006

Too quick to judge Basso.............we'll find out soon enough. One thing is for sure, the italian cycling fed has seen the dossier presented by UCI and instigated proceedings. Riis has seen the dossier and is slowly washing his hands of Basso. Basso himslef has been less than vocal and adopted a rabbit in the headlights approach. Only way we will know is when the case starts.
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Message 6 - posted by caribou_37 (U4989652) , Aug 23, 2006

... and if Fuentes was fabricating the relationship with Basso he was also fabricating his involvement in phone calls to fellow conspirators and they were in on the fabrication.

Maybe Fuentes was to Basso what French lab technicians were to Landis/Armstrong/etc.

Basso is going down. Thats my fearless prediction (to coin a phrase).
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Message 7 - posted by caribou_37 (U4989652) , Aug 23, 2006

Although I should clarify that by saying that Basso will be banned. As far as I remember under the code of conduct even a strong suspicion is sufficient for a two year ban.

Whether the evidence is water-tight enough for Basso to be sent to jail is another matter entirely.
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Message 8 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 23, 2006

I think Besonders is right, there has to be a pre-ponderence of evidence to 'convict' on a doping offence. But regardless of what actually happened, my point is that I can't see such evidence arising.

Esteban is happy to ban a rider if a link between that rider and Fuentes is established. I can uderstand that opinion, but I don't think it will stack up with the authorities - they'ed be sued to the bottom of their coffers.

The fact that they may have evidence against Fuentes doesn't mean that those 'linked' to him are guilty too (though I agree they probably are). It is possible to have all sort of relationships with criminals without being a criminal.

The DNA test is interesting too. Its easy to say "none of them had the guts to come forward for a DNA test", but who exactly were they supposed to come forward too? Remember, they haven't been accused of anything as yet. Even if they took a DNA test, who would they send it to.
UCI, what an earth would they do with it?. Do they have access to spanish courts evidence matirial. Off course not! Neither do the cyclists, their laywers, the national cycling federations and so on.


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Message 9 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

"...if a link is established between Basso and Fuentes (or any rider for that matter) then they have to be banned. It's becoming more obvious (as he himself said)that Fuentes ran a systematic doping scheme although he preferred to refer to it as treating his patients..."

Is this really the type of system that we want?

Does this not lend itself to far more abuse by establishing such an authoritarian and autocratic system that presupposes...guilty before proving your innocence?

Is this not akin to racial profiling in terms of relying on blanket assumptions rather than specific actions? Is it different than a police officer standing at an intersection handing out traffic fines to all drivers of red cooper vehicles because statistical evidence at the police department suggests that they account for 72% of accidents in an intersection?


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Message 10 - posted by Lowlandbrit (U5083598) , Aug 23, 2006

Is this not akin to racial profiling in terms of relying on blanket assumptions rather than specific actions? Is it different than a police officer standing at an intersection handing out traffic fines to all drivers of red cooper vehicles because statistical evidence at the police department suggests that they account for 72% of accidents in an intersection?
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No; yes would be the short version of my opinion.
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Message 11 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

I don't think it's the sort of system we want but in these circumstances I think it's the sort of system we have to have to clean up the sport. It's not ideal but how else do you get rid of the suspicion over certain performances.

Fuentes has effectively admitted he doped his patients but called it treating them. The question to ask would be 'why else would you be going to see Fuentes?' he doesn't seem to have a reputation in cycling for anything else at the moment.

I appreciate where you're coming from in terms of tarring everyone with the same brush and guilt by association but in THESE circumstances there is, in my opinion, a doping factory and association with that and the other circumstantial evidence that is coming with it should lead to a ban for me.

I'm probably contradicting myself in something I've said in another thread but I think the Fuentes stuff is far too far reaching not too be ignored.
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Message 12 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

Yes, Esteban, I agree that the Fuentes situation is one of the most egregious assaults on cycling ever and that corrective steps need to be undertaken to clean the sport up.

However, I do not think that this particular approach would work. At least not where the outcome would be a quick decision to ban someone or penalize someone merely because of association.

I really and truly like the idea of having a broader program in place. I think WADA is on the right track in terms of wanting all member nations to adopt practices that provides for a uniform code of conduct in terms of how their anti-doping programs are run and in terms of bringing more state support to bear. Having legislation in place that allows the various agencies to undertake search and seizure of riders, teams, etc. and their files, records and equipment is a HUGE STEP in this battle.

Placing the DS, teams, and physicians in the spotlight too through forced certification and adoption of a uniform code of conduct is also a HUGE PLUS in the battle against dopers. A more comprehensive program, financed through the teams, riders, and organizers would go a long way towards cleaning the sport up and bringing more integrity back into it.
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Message 13 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 23, 2006

Sort of system we want?, you are making the situation and argument more complex than it needs to be. Outlaw the use of non UCI sanctioned medics and then anyone caught liasing with the likes of fuentes gets banned. Cycling is at a cross-roads my friend. If we want to clean it up we have to get medieval on the dopers asses, its the only way.
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Message 14 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 23, 2006

You say that the Italian cycling fed has seen the dossier presented by UCI and instigated proceedings – that’s news to me. Where did you get that from? Last thing I read was that the president of the Italian cycling federation has stated, that from the documents he has seen, there are not sufficient elements to accuse Basso.
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Message 15 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

I agree with you on the broader scheme WADA stuff but Basso isn't on that yet - he's caught up in the Fuentes side of things and he's already passed the doping controls in place despite (it would seem from what's been in the media) having been doped whilst winning the Giro. Is it right to let someone connected to such a huge scandal in such a huge way race? No in my opinion.

Going forward it seems that the WADA way may well be the best way forward but for now what else can you do with people linked to Fuentes and the whole dopind programme he was involved in.

And I agree with you on the DS and team point too - the whole 'I didn't know what they were up to' doesn't make sense.
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Message 16 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

Alan...I agree and support wholeheartedly the concept of having certified WADA/UCI physicians and only those physicians, with limited ability to see other physicians. That is what I have advocated on other threads and will do so again here.

If we adopt that type of system, along with certified masseurs, and a greater accountability, through joint and several liability with the teams and the DS then you have a totally different system that allows for bans, suspensions etc. for unauthorized use of a non-certified physician.

BUT, I do not think that was being proposed by the comments of "ban them all for links..."

Without the alternative in place, you do not have the legal or moal underpinnings to simply resort to bans because of guilt by association.
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Message 17 - posted by TheInvigilator (U4743667) , Aug 23, 2006

I have a feeling that Basso may well be innocent - as Bartali says it may be that Fuentes was involved in some sort of self-aggrandisment. Remember Fuentes assertion about names "still riding" and names on the list that he never treated - a peculiar man. Before we knew the extent of Ullrich's involvement, I had wondered whether the reality of the list was: - a whole pile of so-so riders, oh and by the way: the 2 biggest names in the sport! The 2 big favourites for the TdF - a conspiracy to destabilise the French Grand Boucle?.... purely conjecture of course.
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Message 18 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 23, 2006

But its the only way, on a short term, to get these guys out of cycling. make it clear that you will be banned if you work with them! It is draconian, but it wont take long beofre a cyclist wont go near fuentes et al
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Message 19 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 23, 2006

Want to make myself clear on this that I'm only advocating this in relation to the whole Fuentes affair. I agree in the normal run of things it is a draconian system but what else can you do in light of what's happened in Spain and latterly in Germany. It seems there was a very complex doping practice going on that had already evaded (in some cases) the existing doping controls.
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Message 20 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 23, 2006

If I were Basso and fully innocent, you'd have get 100 men to hold me down and keep me from speaking out and confronting those accused me...But Basso's half-hearted denials almost seem like an admission of guilt.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 21 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

Yes, I suppose that you would smarauder. That seems to be part of your DNA and mine too. But, I suspect from what I have read about Basso and the interviews that he has given, that his personality/DNA is different.

I mean afterall, can you blame him for taking the low road and remain quiet, especially when you see the harm that Landis has done to himself by focusing the media spotlight on himself?


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Message 22 - posted by shacknet (U5389019) , Aug 23, 2006

Basso etc seem to be waiting to be proven guilty rather than activly doing something to prove their innocence. It may be a personality thing but it does lead me to think that they may not be clean.
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Message 23 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 23, 2006

IF you're innocent and denied a chance at immortality(winning the TdF), I think any professional athlete would put up a better fight...I think Basso knows he's cooked...That's a simplistic view, but the only one I can muster at this point.
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Message 24 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 23, 2006

My input keeps getting stuck in moderation , but as I asked earlier - if you were Basso, just who would you supply your DNA too? He hasn't even been accused of anything - yet!
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Message 25 - posted by Nuvolari1 (U1731570) , Aug 23, 2006

Let’s see. If you are silent (like Basso, Jan and co) you must be guilty because you are not defending yourself. But, if you come out swinging (like Landis) you are throwing smoke screen and trying to confuse us. There is no perfect response. You have to come clean and push for any test that may clean your name, and not hide behind your lawyers.
Going back to Basso, you have team doctors, and I am quit sure there are many sport specialist near where he lives, so why the hell you go to another country to see some shady physician? It just does not add up, unless you assume they are doing something illegal.

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Message 26 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 23, 2006

If he is clean and the DNA will prove that the blood is not his then why is he not providing it?

Also, on the subject of excuses. Basso is claiming that it can't be him because his dog is called Trillo.
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Message 27 - posted by sradhakr (U2393201) , Aug 23, 2006

What is Basso waiting for? Isn't it in his best interest to take up the case and close the issue fast? The Vuelta has approached and he is not a participant. At some point, he has to come out with defense.
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Message 28 - posted by dave_muggle111 (U3522874) , Aug 23, 2006

This may sound weird and unconventional to some, but I suspect that Basso may not even have to come out with much of a defence at all. He has not failed a drug test; he is only "linked" to this affair through some papers in the possession of Fuentes.

If the prosecutors in Spain or Italy look at it with the thoughts of prosecuting, then they will automatically have to meet a higher standard to get it to hold up in a Court of Law. If they cannot get enough evidence to support that, then I do not think that they will be able to charge Basso with anything.

If that is the case, then Basso will not have anything to answer for formally; just the whispers and innuendo and I suspect that he can live with that.

The prosecutors in this investigation will have to make their case against him. Anything they have regarding Basso will be forwarded on to the national cycling federation for review and sanction, but I suspect without formal charges, that they too would not really sanction Basso.
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Message 29 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 23, 2006

That's highly plausible...in the meantime, Basso missed out on his chance to win the TdF...Either he's got amazing patience or he's guilty as hell.
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Message 30 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 23, 2006

What is Basso waiting for? Isn't it in his best interest to take up the case and close the issue fast? The Vuelta has approached and he is not a participant. At some point, he has to come out with defense.

Like that lying, hard faced cheat Landis?
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Message 31 - posted by George809 (U2883985) , Aug 24, 2006

The fact that Basso went so quietly is almost an admission of guilt. Riis came out and said it would be impossible for Basso to ride the TdeF and fight to clear his name. Well as far as I've seen Basso hasn't done anything too much thus far to clear his name.

I'm with the majority - if he was innocent Basso would have basically fought tooth and nail to stay in Le Tour....

Same goes for Ullrich - this was realistically Ullrich's last or possibly second last chance to win the Tour.....he gave that press conference but you would have thought he'd have been fighting like a bear.
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Message 32 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Who exactly is he supposed to provide his DNA sample too? Renmember, he hasn't actually been 'charged' with anything yet ... or even accused of anything.

The UCI, what would they do with it?. Do they have access to the blood seized by the spanish police? Off course not. Neither do the cyclists, their laywers, the national cycling federations and so on.
If Basso does deliver a DNA sample (to whoever)and it turns out not to match Fuentes' blood bank, does that make him innocent. Or would you say that the reason is that Basso's blood was not present was because there was none in stock -perhaps it had been delivered already? And if there is a match, does that prove he was doping? He would merely say it was being 'analysed' for some medical reason.

The point is (1) until he is accused by some authority he can't, and shouldn't, do anything. (2) In the event of a DNA test at the appropriate time, it would neither prove him innocent or guilty.

Whatever your thoughts on Basso, I suspect that no 'smoking gun' will mean no case to answer.

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Message 33 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Basso couldn't fight to stay in the tour. His exclusion was inevitable as a result of the agreement between the teams to suspend riders 'linked' to a drugs scandal. Even thos riders supsequently cleared by the spanish authorities didn't fight tooth and nail to stay in the tour.
Also, as I keep saying - what could he do - he hasn't even being accused of anything as yet. Until someone says "Basso you did this or that ..." what is there to fight. He's mad a statement that he hasn't been blood doping and he has said he will give a DNA sample (though none has been asked for as yet) what more can he do.

I'm not saying he's not guilty and I'm not defending him, but we shouldn't condem a man on the basis of a few paragraphs leaked from an unofficial translation of a 50 page report. If we condemed people on heresay, then LA would have been banned years ago - along with many others.
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Message 34 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

How about condeming him for riding up an italian mountian at what has been calculated to be an impossible power output for an individual athlete (see August edition ProCycling)?
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Message 35 - posted by George809 (U2883985) , Aug 24, 2006

Bartali - I'm not condemning Basso and I know he was excluded and hence couldn't race. But if it was me, and someone had accused me of something I didn't do and as a result something I'd worked so hard for over the last 6 months (if not my whole career) was suddenly taken from me due to lies, I would have been telling anyone who would listen that I was innocent and starting proceedings against whoever I felt was responsible for this.

There may be a lot of people of this board who don't like LA - but can you imagine him slinking into the shadows if something like that happened to him and he was innocent? No chance. He have been shouting it from the rafters and he'd ensure everyone knew how he felt and what would happen to his accusers - plus I don't think his team would have started the race out of support for him.

When I think about it like that I can't help but feel Basso must be in some way involved - same with Ullrich.
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Message 36 - posted by George809 (U2883985) , Aug 24, 2006

alanmcn - can you go into more detail ?
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Message 37 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Bjarne Riis made public some of the stast surrounding Bassos mountain demolition ride in the Giro. A couple of AIGCP DSs took an interest, and studied some videos of his rides, studied the stats Riis had mentioned (rpm, ave speed ect) and calculated what his power output would have been for those stages. They calculated that Basso was generating more power over an entire mountain stage than Armstrong did on his TT up Alpe d'Huez. Thats over a whole mountian stage. basicaly the only power output figures they could find that came close were Armstrongs on Time trials. They then sent a file to UCI on what they deduced, and 1 day later the the link with fuentes and posible blood doping during the Giro was announced. As one of the DSs was quoted "you dont need drug invetsigations to catch cheats, just look at performances that are beyond what is physically possible!"
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Message 38 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 24, 2006

There are two investigations so Basso may end up in a situation such as Allan Davis has found himself in ie clear of Op Puerto involvement at a criminal level but under suspension by the UCI. My feeling is that the UCI can not act until the Op Puerto case is concluded because of the legal ramifications - ie it might prejudice any criminal case.
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Message 39 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

But these stats were hardly scientific and certainly don't prove Basso to be superhuman. Also the fact that Basso's power output over an entire mountain stage was not dissimilar to Armstrong's TT up Alpe d'Huez is not surprising. Basso never rode 14km on his own - he was towed by a fast moving peleton throught most of the stage and good ol Carlos S on the last climb. I don't think he ever wrode more than 8km on the front.

Look logically at the stages he won 8, 16, 20 - presumably they are the suspect ones. On each stage he beat Simoni by 1.15, 1.26 and 1.17. Hardly earth shattering gaps. Look at Simoni's performance against in the Tour - Leipheimer put 1.35 into him on stage 15 and over 30 minutes on stage 16 and 18. Are we really saying Leipheimer is as good if not better than Basso - Of course not. I appreciate this isn't that scientific, but was Basso's GIRO performance really that exceptional?


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Message 40 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

It was incredibly exceptional, as physiologically he doesnt have the make up to produce such power, and secondly he had never come close to anything approaching it before. CF landis to morzine......if it looks too good to be true.....

As for Simone..........hardly an icon of virtue when it comes to the Giro.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 41 - posted by George809 (U2883985) , Aug 24, 2006

I think that someone putting out more power at the end of a mountain stage than someone (especially when that someone is LA) in a TT, even an uphill one, is pretty suspicious. No matter how well towed you are you've still riden the 150 or so ks before hand, and generally over a couple of mountains.

The bottom line is Lance rode 14ks or whatever it was that day - Basso had rode in excess of 100ks.
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Message 42 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Never come close to putting 1 minute 30 seconds into the next best placed rider? Are you joking. 2005 TdF he was regularly putting 40 seconds or so into Ullrich never mind Simoni. Look at the TdF mountain finishes and the timegaps to everyone other than LA and Ullrich.

As for the comparison to Landis, I saw Landis on stage 17 2006 TdF and Basso in the Dolomites and believe me, the two bare no comparison.

My point is simply this. Do you really think any of the 'real' TdF contender of recent years, if they had chosen to ride the Giro in peak form, couldn't have put 1.5 minutes into the likes of Simoni. Of course they would.

Not sying he wasn't on the juice, just trying to be objective.
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Message 43 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Number 1: you have (chosen) misread my point on Bassos new found ability. I said he had never come close to performances where he produced the maximum power outage he did in the Giro, not the time gaps he produced.

Number 2: In what way do landis and basso bear no comparison? Both produced incredible rides thought unimaginable (win a Giro by 9 minutes when your training for the tour?????)

Number 3: I'm suggesting that i wouldnt bet even the smallest penny that Simoni rides the Giro above and beyond the laws!

Of course its all opinion. And its nice to have an informed and reasoned debate rather than a "you hate my country its all a conspiracy" one <wink>
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Message 44 - posted by MAILLOT JAUNE (U1932045) , Aug 24, 2006

I kknow this one's about Basso but what about Ullrich's TT performance in the Giro... does anyone think he put his all into that one stage and then saved himself on all the others?
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Message 45 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Probably a blood boost day Surprised
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Message 46 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 24, 2006

Alanmcn1,

Did the DS's release any figures on the power outputs involved? I read somewhere a while ago that Armstrong benchmarked himself on a maximum output of 500 watts for around half an hour. That was his 'full bore' effort. And he was supposed to be one of, if not the most, powerful bloke in the peloton. To think that Basso could exceed that (and it seems reading between the lines of what these guys are saying - and without the numbers - he did it comfortably) naturally doesn't seem likely at all.
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Message 47 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Sorry Esteban, i dont have the article on me, but they were suggetsing his power output (if memore serves me correctly) was soemwhere between 490 and 550 watts (bear in mind they were calcualtions not figures, so was margin for error), FOR THE STAGE. Thats why the alarm bells were so large they contacted UCI about it. I will look out the article tonight and come back armed with the facts.
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Message 48 - posted by rob_on_wheels (U1723331) , Aug 24, 2006

If that were true it really would be impossible. I didn't see the article but I suspect you mean the averages for the last climb, and even then it's pretty incredible. They will/should have allowed for the effects of drafting behind Sastre in the calc's. Basso is reportedly 70kg, so the powers you quote are in the range of 7 to 7.85W/kg.

7.2W/kg is supposedly the 'magic number' so we could be in the ball park if we're at the bottom end of your range.
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Message 49 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

as I said Rob, I will fecth the article at home tonight and post the exact details. But also as i said, when the calculations were done, it was so astronomically wierd that they reported their findings to UCI. Am not a physiology expert (damn biochemistry took my interest) but would imagine it muct have been alarming to take such a large step.
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Message 50 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Aug 24, 2006

i would need to see the napkins the DS folk used to calculate his power, as it seems enormous, and thus W/kg ratio is a number i have never seen.

also, can you imagine rasmussen's W/kg ratio. we all know a ratio can be pretty large when the denominator approaches 0!

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Message 51 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Aug 24, 2006

alan your last message made me believe the calculations were far more detailed than ones developed over a cold beer. it seems like eveyone will be boggled by the information, if the DSs were.

perhaps riis would tell them ivan had extra free time the evening before

not to get back to the landis matter, but i remember it was odd to hear the phonak DS note he did not visit with landis after the meltdown of stage 16, and before the exploit of stage 17 in le Tour. landis had a couple beers and a lot of free time...
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Message 52 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 24, 2006

Bridgework,

A while back they released the data taken from Landis during stage 17. It was published a while ago on cyclingnews.com. If my meory serves me rightly he averaged somewhere in the region of 350 Watts over the stage at an average cadence of 89rpm. Nothing as remarkable as Basso is supposed to have done and apparently this is all supported by his training data - he could do this for 8 hours Phinak/his physiologist claimed. Made quite impressive reading.

Not defending him or suggesting he's not guilty for one second but putting the performances in perspective in light of what the DS's are saying.
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Message 53 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

These are the figures Riis released for stage 16 of the Giro!

Ivan climbed the 17.470 km with a gradient of 1372 metres in 46:15, at an average speed of 22.7 km/h, with an average climbing speed of 1780 and average power of 440 watts.

These are the figures that made the DSs study thsi and previous tapes of Basso
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Message 54 - posted by JimiEvil (U4251012) , Aug 24, 2006

I thought the magic number was 6.7 W/KG?
Either way it was way over Razz
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Message 55 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Compare to Lanids power stats for his stage to morzine (the cheat ride!)

Floyd averaged 280 watts for the entire ride, but it was 318 for the last two hours. That is while the bike is moving, so you have take into account that he has all those long descents,” he said. “On the descents he spent 13.2 percent of his time or 43 minutes coasting. If you spend that much coasting but are as good a descender as he is, you are making up time on the descents as well.

"However, if we don’t include the coasting time, he averaged 324 watts while pedalling for the stage and 364 watts over the last two hours. That gave him a total of 5,456 Kjoules of work, at an average cadence of 89 rpm.
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Message 56 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

It's ok to defend Landis, Esteban...You don't have to be so qualify your remarks or be defensive...Nobody on this site will ever mock or scoff at you for defending Landis...

Everybody in this forum seem to be very open-minded and congenial to alternate viewpoints on the Landis saga...
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Message 57 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

The important part of the Landis figures, which I ommitted there, is that he rode at 515!!!!!! watts on the climb he attacked on...........JUICE
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Message 58 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 24, 2006

I'd agree and even managed to get the girlfriend into cycling temporarily via Floyd's demise and resurrection on stages 16 and 17!! However, as time has gone on he's looked more and more guilty - sadly. Was a fan of his when he was a domestique for Armstrong at Postal and hope that he didn't dope but as time goes by I have to say it looks like he did stick a patch to his nads!
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Message 59 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Alanmcn – good to debate this too.

Sorry if I missed your point re power output – I’ll come back to that below.

The Landis / Basso comparison is part gut feel - just standing at the side of the road watching the guys ride past. Landis was like a man possessed, eyes bulging almost a cartoon popeye figure. There is no doubt in my mind that all was not as it should be – and that was the feeling of so many people stood half way up the Joux Plane climb. Basso was different. Awesome yes, but more controlled, classy. A bit like LA in a way. Putting the gut feel to one side, Landis rode a whole day on his own, holding off CSC, T-Mobile and all the rest. Even on the last climb, when he should have been shattered, only Sastre (a pure climber at the top of his game) made any inroads into his lead. Kloden, Periero etc just couldn’t hold him. Basso in the Giro was different. Classic LA tactics - each day he used the strongest team in the race to get him to the last climb quickly and in the best shape possible. Then, Voigt goes to the front and splits the whole peloton into bits – de Luca goes, Salvodeli goes Cunego goes – that leaves about 6 or 7 at the front. Then its Sastre’s turn all the way to the last 6 or 7 km only Simoni, Piepoli and the Phonak bloke can stay with Sastre, the Basso kicks and its all over bar the shouting. We’ve seem LA do it time after time after time. (Sorry – I got carried away for a moment

Ok, let’s look at the power thing – thanks for digging those out. From what the article says, Basso did 440 watts for 46 minutes. Armstrong reputedly could produce 500 for 30 minutes. I’m not so sure I’m shocked by this? Less watts for more minutes by a rider, at this stage of his career, very much in the same ball park as LA in the mountains. Basso is 70 kg according to the CSC website so that makes 6.2W/kg well below the magic number someone came up with of 6.7W/kg? So again, doesn’t look as remarkable as people have speculated.

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Message 60 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

515 Watts! Ouch I rode the last climb at a 267 Watts ;(

Still, my juice was 100% H2O
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 61 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Aug 24, 2006

i want to appologize for derailing the basso discussion with landis talk. while i do not believe landis or basso, i am attempting to not not believe them too. however i did find the similarities between their respective DSs' outlook on spending time with their team leaders as odd.

i was not troubled with the Landis Watt data, even the 550 W he used to open the gap. if memory serves me, Landis had trained up to bursts of 900-1100W applied for less than a minute in order to open up small gaps. given his maximum, i do not see 550W to be impossible or super human, especially since Kloden in particular showed the legs to follow - but chose not to.

it is too bad regarding basso no matter what happens. a giro tour double would have been just what the doctor ordered for the pro peloton - no pun intended.




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Message 62 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

As Bridgework says [if] Basso is guilty, it will be a real shame. The Giro/TdF double would have been good for our sport.

Isn't today the day Basso had to appear before the Italian cycling authorities? Has anybody heard anything yet?
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Message 63 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

According to Landis' personal coach, he put forth more watts in similar training days.

By the way, I believe Landis was racing tactically and holding back earlier in the tour. I believe it was stage 11 when he set tempo with Menchov and Levi and they put time into Sastre, Kloden and Evans without ever launching any fierce attacks...When he needed to, he unleashed his best ride...There's no way his testosterone levels could have gone from nothing to 4 times the legal limits back down to nothing like a yo-yo from day to day...

Even if he did apply a patch to his scrotum before stage 17, the traces of so-called synthetic testosterone wouldn't have left his system just two days later...especially if they were FOUR times the legal the limit...

Hey Alan, Can you say SPIKE???

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Message 64 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

"There's no way his testosterone levels could have gone from nothing to 4 times the legal limits back down to nothing like a yo-yo from day to day..."

Hey Sma... you do go on a bit, don't you...? You've given us this bit of wisdom about a zillion times now, but STILL can't answer the arguments about how implausible spiking would be... we know where you stand, along with Landis & his lawyer; so that makes three of you (assuming his lawyer believes hi, & I wouldn't bank on that )
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Message 65 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

Hey Ventoux,

Thanks for your tolerance of my alternative opinion...

By the way, you must be on cloud nine these days...Birmingham leading the Championship and Villa has 4 points from 2 games in the Prem...I'm just curious, how does a resident of Birmingham chose between the two clubs??? Is just about proximity to the grounds?
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Message 66 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

Smarauder, how little you know... over the moon with Birmingham City's start to the season - devastated that Villa are doing well (it's all a bit tribal here... )

Mixed feelings to see Villa beat Reading - might help me make my point with you, but hate to see them win ANYTHING!!
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Message 67 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 24, 2006

Hey Sma, I can say spike. I can also say blinkered, ignorant, buffoon..............I could go on. And I'm not going to enter the Testosterone debate becasue no one can give a proper debate, other than to confrim to you for the thousandth time that testosterone can have an immediate effect and be cleared quickyl if taken in suitable amounts.............for the love of god man soak up the info............if you are capable
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Message 68 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Aug 24, 2006

again i apologize.
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Message 69 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

"again i apologize.."

we don't think it's you who needs to apologise, Bridge... although if we hang on for an apology from the other guy we could be waiting a while....
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Message 70 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Thanks Ventoux

Back to Basso - I got it wrong. He reports to the Italian Federation on 29 August.
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Message 71 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

"Hey Ventoux,

Thanks for your tolerance of my alternative opinion..."

Smarauder, I am very tolerant of alternative opinions (well, I try to be...) - if you're picking up my intolerance (mild in comparison with some ) then it's not with your opinion (although I do disagree with it..) - it's about your repetition of the same opinion interminably, and in the face of some strong arguments.. by all means argue back (I wish you would), but you're getting people's backs up by just repeating an opinion, based on what you feel, and not debating the valid arguments which suggest you just might be wrong....
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Message 72 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

Hey Ventoux, I don't know if you saw the Villa/Reading game, but from what I have heard, Sonko's sending off was quite harsh...Could have been a penalty only and nobody would have complained...Reading still played valliantly a man down...I still have high hopes for them...I'm glad to hear you've chosen a side in that rivalry...I can't stand fans who root for both Texas teams for example. I just don't get how fans choose between the city team(Liverpool, Manchester City) vs Everton or Man U...I'm sure alot of it is handed down from generation to generation...In London is it basically about where you live? Northsiders root for Arsenal? Southsiders Chelsea...Westenders Fulham...?

And yes Alan, I have heard and understand your point of view, you arrogant, self-rightous schmuck! And I can understand testosterone levels changing from day to day...but I don't get how how he could have gone from FOUR times the limit down to normal so quickly??? How much testosterone would one have to ingest to get from normal to FOUR times over the limits???? I would find it much easier to buy if he had only been twice the limit or 50% over the limit...but he was essentially 400% over the limit...then back to normal 2 days later...I not only question the yo-yo test results, but how could he actually ingest that much testosterone between Stage 15 and Stage 17???


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Message 73 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

Hey Smarauder - I'm trying to have a chat about Basso and OP here. I respect your right to talk about anything you want, and your opinions for that matter, but would appreciate it if Landis and Football were discussed elsewhere.

I'm new to these boards and really trying to et a debate going here. Ta
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Message 74 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinchia! Scusa!

The football discussion is a carry over from other threads with Ventoux and I...I hadn't seen him posting for awhile and wanted to ask him about the Villa/Birmingham thing...

As for Landis, I wasn't the one who brought Landis' name to this thread...


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Message 75 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

last one on the footie, honest...

Sma.. it's a range of things. the most common is a family "tradition" to support one team or the other. There is a general geographic thing (some areas are more Villa or more blues, but not exclusively...) sometimes it's a work thing (all your mates going to the game..) lately, there's a great increase in youngsters just picking a team at random (usually whoever is successful at the moment) & supporting them... sadly, the tradition (& tribalism) is dying out..

.. OK, I'm off now... sorry guys...
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Message 76 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 24, 2006

No worries.

Landis is fair game, but Alan and I were compairing Landis on stage 17 with Basso in the Giro. What's your view? You appear to be one of the few posters who think Landis was legit. Do you think Basso's clean too?
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Message 77 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 24, 2006

I don't know about Basso's Giro performance but how can you NOT doubt its validity?

I've said this before in other threads, but perhaps you missed it...IF I were Basso and I knew I had done nothing wrong, I'd be screaming bloody murder and you'd need to sedate me to keep me from screaming and yelling my innocence.

Sometimes, you can judge a man's guilt or innocence by their reaction to the charges...Not many innocent people just put their head between their legs and go home.

Basso SEEMS guilty and IF he is, its not hard to believe its been going on for awhile...

By the way, who finished 2nd at this year's Giro??? I wonder if Basso could see his win thrown out???
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Message 78 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 24, 2006

"I've said this before in other threads, but perhaps you missed it... "
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Message 79 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 25, 2006

Sorry bartali, but have to respond to Sma from last night!

as, once again, you decided to avoid an intelligent debate with personal insults directed at me, I have decided for one last time to point out the scientific biochemical facts, in published and reproduced articles, on testosterone, and how it acts quickly and is rapidly metabolised. Hopefully this info will help to educate you, and show you exactly how your failed hero picked the perfect susbtance with which to cheat his way to victory on Morzine:

Rapid stimulatory effects of testosterone upon myotubule metabolism and sugar transport, as assessed by silicon microphysiometry
Larry W. Tsai, Robert M. Sapolsky *
Department of Biological Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, California

"These findings show that testosterone can exert rapid anabolic effects on substrate transport and metabolism in myotubules. Should this finding general to muscle in vivo, it suggests that relatively small individual differences in testosterone profiles, in response to various social interactions, have very real consequence for subsequent muscle physiology. "

And to show how quickly it is metabolised:

"Pharmacokinetics

Absorption

Following Androderm (testosterone transdermal system) application to scrotal skin, testosterone is continuously absorbed during the 24-hour dosing period. Daily application of Androderm at approximately 10 PM results in a serum testosterone concentration profile that mimics the normal circadian variation observed in healthy young men (Fig. 2 below). Maximum concentrations occur in the early morning hours with minimum concentrations in the evening......
Upon removal of the Androderm systems, serum testosterone concentrations decrease with an apparent half-life of approximately 70 minutes. Hypogonadal concentrations are reached within 24 hours following system removal."

Sorry to plague the rest of you with this, but I hope it may even clear up a few things for the rest of us

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Message 80 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

Gutierrez was second, but he's caught up in OP too. Simoni was third.

Interesting that you say Basso should be screaming and shouting his innocence. Answer me one question - innocence from what exactly? As yet he hasn't been accused of anything!

Also, that's how you would react. I might react that way too, but Basso is not you or I. I note that Landis has waisted no time in declaring his innocence and nobody believes him (correction very few people believe him). If there is no merit in screaming and shouting, then why not calmly declare that you have no involvement with whatever happened in Spain (which he has done) then sit back and wait for someone to actually accuse you of something and bring some facts to the table. As I have said earlier on this thread - guilty or innocent, I can't see a credible case being made against him. His reputation might be in shreds, but I very much doubt there will be any ban.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 81 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

"Sorry to plague the rest of you with this, but I hope it may even clear up a few things for the rest of us..."

Thanks, Alan, although most (almost all) of us were with you on this already.... helps to have such detailed information tho.... so how is it I just know that smarauder will respond with "something doesn't add up; how could his levels go up & down so quickly..." - you think maybe you're p*ssing into the wind with him....?

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Message 82 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 25, 2006

Almost certainly, but when things get personal I have to respond. Why I had to give up teaching karate as a young man
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Message 83 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

"when things get personal I have to respond. Why I had to give up teaching karate as a young man..."

I knew I was being wise, keeping on the right side of you
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Message 84 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

Wasn't it Jonathan Swift who said "there is none so blind as he who will not see" ? I wonder who he might have been thinking of....
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Message 85 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

That explanation physically hurt to read...Can you break it down into lehman's terms???

"I'm not a smart mannn"
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Message 86 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 25, 2006

Essentially, testosterone has experimentaly been shown to have a rapid effect on electrolyte uptake my muscle (myosin) fibres. This rapid uptake of nutrients by the fibres result in a huge change in the muscle cells ability. Basically, the more energy your muscles can move through, the beter they perform.

On the second part, experimentally testosterone has been shown to be absorbed into the system via the scrotum and behave like natural testosterone, with levels peaking in the morning and tailing off by evening. After application, testosterone levels fall back to normal or sub-normal in 24 hours.

Hope I have helped
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Message 87 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

Hope I have helped
Quoted from this message





So do I...
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Message 88 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

Thanks Alan...Appreciate your efforts to break it down for those of us less educated...I understand the concepts but I'm still not sure I understand how the testosterone levels can flucuate THAT much...I'm not saying its NOT possible...

Another reason I continue to believe in Landis is that I really don't think he would have been THAT stupid to absorb such high levels of testosterone and then win the stage knowing he would he would be tested within minutes of crossing the line..??? He may not be the sharpest of riders, but he's got or had a pretty sophisticated support network of coaches and trainers...Hard to believe they would take such a chance.

One other thing on the "patch" -- If the scrotum patch is widely used, as reported, why haven't more riders been caught???

Are we to believe that Landis absorbed 4 times the normal amount of testosterone that others typically do?
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Message 89 - posted by andy tedd (U519661) , Aug 25, 2006

I have never seen such a blind refusal to look facts in the face - amazing. Landis is a doper, he got caught, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Back on topic:

Basso's 440 watts up that climb does not look unreasonable compared to Pantani's 388W for his best up Alpe d'Huez or LA's 454W. He's much closer to LA in size.

Of course one of those riders is a known doper, and the other er, isn't.
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Message 90 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

"I have never seen such a blind refusal to look facts in the face"


I think the OJ Simpson Jury were more blind...I still have partial vision...
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Message 91 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

Another reason I continue to believe in Landis is
Quoted from this message




No, Smarauder, that's the SAME reason you've given us a zillion (+1) times now.... we know you don't get it... you know that 99% of us are frustrated that you keep telling us that you don't get it... shall we stop now??
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Message 92 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

"Basso's 440 watts up that climb does not look unreasonable compared to Pantani's 388W for his best up Alpe d'Huez or LA's 454W. He's much closer to LA in size."

My conclusion too. Seems to me the whole thing is a spat between DSs.
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Message 93 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

Am I the only one in this entire forum who isn't 100% sure that Landis doped, er patched????


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Message 94 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

Yes.
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Message 95 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 25, 2006

Yep!
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Message 96 - posted by andy tedd (U519661) , Aug 25, 2006

probably, and you really are starting to spoil it, so please please pretty please just give it a break, or at least just confine it to threads about Landis.
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Message 97 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

yeap!
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Message 98 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

Doesn't it bother you Bartali that Basso hasn't fought more voiciferously?

Don't give me this DNA crap...any great, professional athlete has the DNA makeup to fight when wrongly charged...I don't buy his lack of defending is based on his mild-mannered personality...

Could it be that his "half-hearted" denials are a result of his not knowing exactly how much they have on him???
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Message 99 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

Let me reword the question ... and bring it back on thread

Am I the only one in this entire forum who isn't 100% sure that Basso doped?
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Message 100 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

I'm about 90% certain that Basso doped and was involved with the Fuentes Blood doping factory...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 101 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

Doesn't bother me a bit.

Not saying he's innocent, but constant denials have achieved nothing - never do. He strikes me as a mild mannered bloke who as yet HASN'T BEEN ACCUSED OF ANYTHING. What's to deny. Produce the evidence - all of it - then lets see him sink or swim.
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Message 102 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

re- Armstrong's 454 figure. Is that for the TT? Do we have comparable figures for a similar stage + attack?

Isn't the thing about Basso that the figure was so high for such a long time.

We tend to associate Pantani with very fast attacks - rather than long sustained attacks.
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Message 103 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

Sounds reasonable. I'd probably go a bit lower - 80% perhaps. Thing is, I don't think the'll be able to make the case stick even if he is guilty.
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Message 104 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

Why would he just accept his being thrown out of the tour without putting up more of a fight??? Look at everything he lost out on...Giro/Tour Double...HUGE prize money, endorsements...Legacy sealed as one of the all-time greats...I hope he's clean and not part of the Blood Doping...but his behavior reminds me of a cat that got caught with a pet parakeet in its mouth...
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Message 105 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

naspa - From what the article says, Basso did 440 watts for 46 minutes. Armstrong reputedly could produce 500 for 30 minutes. I’m not so sure I’m shocked by this? Less watts for more minutes by a rider, at this stage of his career, very much in the same ball park as LA in the mountains.
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Message 106 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

all this talk about watts is interesting, but how can you a measure a man's desire and ability to withstand pain? For me, its NOT just a question of how many watts you can achieve or sustain...
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Message 107 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , Aug 25, 2006

I go back to what I've said earlier. In each stage basso won (in the Giro) he put less than 90 seconds into Simoni. Of course Simoni could be on the juice - they all could - but I don't think 90 seconds is remarkable given Basso's pedigree. Wouldn't any of the TdF GC contenders do the same if on form - Kloden, Valverde all of them.
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Message 108 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

Bartali - I understand that part of it. I am just wondering if Armstrong's 500 for 30 mins came after 150+ km of hard racing.

NB - Are Pantani and Armstrong such good people to compare against given their reputations?
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Message 109 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 25, 2006

Thanks Alan...Appreciate your efforts to break it down for those of us less educated...I understand the concepts but I'm still not sure I understand how the testosterone levels can flucuate THAT much...I'm not saying its NOT possible...

Another reason I continue to believe in Landis is that I really don't think he would have been THAT stupid to absorb such high levels of testosterone and then win the stage knowing he would he would be tested within minutes of crossing the line..??? He may not be the sharpest of riders, but he's got or had a pretty sophisticated support network of coaches and trainers...Hard to believe they would take such a chance.

One other thing on the "patch" -- If the scrotum patch is widely used, as reported, why haven't more riders been caught???

Are we to believe that Landis absorbed 4 times the normal amount of testosterone that others typically do?


Going back to the stage in question, I don't believe he expected to win the stage. I know it's going back to an old debate but, the fact that he won that stage was down to the failure of other teams to chase him down. In hindsight, perhaps they were already aware of what the dirty, lying cheat had been up to and that's why he was allowed to ride away?
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Message 110 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 25, 2006

all this talk about watts is interesting, but how can you a measure a man's desire and ability to withstand pain? For me, its NOT just a question of how many watts you can achieve or sustain...

I think it's also a question of what is normal and what is humanly possible - who knows? It's not that simple and if it was, I suppose athletes could be convicted of doping just on the basis of impossible performance.
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Message 111 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

Clayton - what we don't know is how many times Landis had doped and used testosterone before but hadn't been caught.

Also - this is a man who knows that this is his one and only shot. So he is willing to take a chance. The odds are that he wouldn't be coming back anyway because of his hip - so he has nothing to lose.


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Message 112 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 25, 2006

Yes, that's correct. I also strongly suspect that Landis was on more that testosterone but, he wasn't caught. Armstong's magic potion perhaps?

It's clear he had nothing to lose and still is - that's why he's persisting with his denial. Sadly, some people believe him; people like smarauder.<grin>

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Message 113 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 25, 2006

Here's my reply again with the smiley!

Yes, that's correct. I also strongly suspect that Landis was on more that testosterone but, he wasn't caught. Armstong's magic potion perhaps?

It's clear he had nothing to lose and still is - that's why he's persisting with his denial. Sadly, some people believe him; people like smarauder.

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Message 114 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

"nothing to lose" -

Do you honestly feel like he had "nothing" to lose??

"took a chance" --

Doping at 4 times the legal limit is more than just "taking a chance" -- it borders on suicidal...Sorry, I'm still not buying it...Haven't ruled out the possibility of guilt, but still not ready to wave the white flag...
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Message 115 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Aug 25, 2006

nothing to lose" -

Do you honestly feel like he had "nothing" to lose??

"took a chance" --

Doping at 4 times the legal limit is more than just "taking a chance" -- it borders on suicidal...Sorry, I'm still not buying it...Haven't ruled out the possibility of guilt, but still not ready to wave the white flag...



How many others have taken the chance - knowing too well that it is suicidal. Every man has his price, why should Landis be any different?
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Message 116 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

If he had got away with it in the past - he might have fancied his chances of getting away with it again.

He knows he will never ride again anyway - if he's caught or not.

My personal feeling is that he cracked under the media pressure on stage 16. 17 was his response.
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Message 117 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

IF he ingested THAT much synthetic testosterone he HAD to have known he's come up "hot" on the urinalysis...I just don't think he would have ingested THAT much, then go out and win a stage when he knows he's gonna be tested...These guys aren't nearly THAT stupid...IF he did cheat, I'm sure he had the help of his entourage who never woulda let him "over-cook" it that much...There's no way they would have expected him to get away with it...
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Message 118 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Aug 25, 2006

I refer you to post 86

AGAIN


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Message 119 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 25, 2006

"experimentally testosterone has been shown to be absorbed into the system via the scrotum and behave like natural testosterone"

Which experiment??? On who??? Rats?
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Message 120 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 28, 2006

No, hypgonadal males, ie the people patches were invented for. its also worth bearing in mind Landis was consuming huge amounts of water. Dehydration will affect the 70 minute half life of testosterone (which you all seem to be ignoring?) Normally Landis would dope with testosterone, am guessing, at an easily calculated amount that would go undetected. Ie dose as soon as he gets to hotel, dose will be almost entirely gone by testing next aftrenoon. His dehyradtion will have afected this. I think he knew he was ridign close to the wind with a +ve that day hence the huge amounts of water.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 121 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 29, 2006

Sorry, I'm still not buying it...Haven't ruled out the possibility of guilt, but still not ready to wave the white flag...
Quoted from this message





ah, there's a surprise Sma.... it seems to me that if Mr Landis was scientifically proven to be not human, but a giant testosterone patch, made in the shape of a human, who went onto Oprah and admitted to ingesting a sub-continent full of EPO (with the odd Jack Daniels, obviously...) then you'd still say you weren't convinced he was doping....

I thought initially that he was "probably" guilty (as so few "false" tests are ever found to be false...), but I've read the extensive & thorough scientific explanations about how this stuff fits together - totally convinced now. I realise, Sma.. that you will never be, but how about you give us a break now?




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Message 122 - posted by MAILLOT JAUNE (U1932045) , Aug 29, 2006

alanmcn1,
That's the question I posted several weeks ago on the It's Landis! thread:

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

Glad someone else noticed this as everyone else seemed to ignore the huge quantities of water being ingested as a possibility of getting the testosterone out of his system.
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Message 123 - posted by andy tedd (U519661) , Aug 29, 2006

>> are pantani and armstrong such good people to compare against...

That was kind of my point - interesting how same set of facts can be interpreted so differently.

Boardman's output for the hour is ~450W (I dont have the exact figure to hand) so this figure is achievable clean, but I dont see how someone can match that in the middle of one of the big stage races, at the end of the stage.

Well, OK I know how Pantani was able to do it (pound for pound)...

I really wanted to believe in Basso, but I was immediately suspiscous after that stage, and everything seems to be pointing that way.
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Message 124 - posted by andy tedd (U519661) , Aug 29, 2006

>>all this talk about watts is interesting, but how can you a measure a man's desire and ability to withstand pain? For me, its NOT just a question of how many watts you can achieve or sustain...

Actually that's where you're wrong, it is very simply a matter of who can generate the most watts for their bodyweight. The big stage races are won and lost in the ITT and the climbs, and it comes down to power.

Rest assured that they can all take more pain than you could ever even understand, particularly if you think it takes 2-3 hours to burn 1000 calories
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Message 125 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 29, 2006

I think from memory (and can't remember where I got this from) that Armstrong's 500 watt benchmark was a testing thing before he competed in a tour - not a stage measurement.

The Landis thing to be fair can be looked at both ways - agreed he could be trying to flush his body knowing that he was likely to win the stage but weren't they saying that his collapse on stage 16 the previous day was due to his body over heating and dehydration and he pored a huge amount of watrer on his head to try and keep his core temperature down. It all has to be looked at and is coloured by what we know now but if there's synthetic testosterone been found in his system his only defence seems to be that the test is flawed (which many very qualified people would argue it isn't) and on that basis he does look very guilty!
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Message 126 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 29, 2006

To say "Landis drank alot of water...Ah ha! He must be guilty" is pathetic...How about taking into consideration that it was hot(over 30 degrees) and he was busting his arse and sweating up a storm, therefore he and the coach knew that he needed to take on more water...Plus, he had the benefit of having the team car at his beck and call that day...

Sorry, Alan! Stick to the science if you wanna make your case...the water intake was clearly outta neccessity NOT to mask anything...
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Message 127 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 29, 2006

Oh, ok. sorry samrauder. I forgot you have a massive knowledge of this subject and I thank you sincerely for asking me to stick to facts for my argument................just like you
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Message 128 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 29, 2006

Fair enuf, mate! You follow the science, I'll follow the money trail...

By the way, Alan, I've heard you mention several times that doping can make a rider's blood thicker or syrupy?? Does taking EPO or transfusing blood have the opposite effects of taking blood thinners??? From a personal experience, I had to get on blood thinners once and it was NOT easy to do any kind of cardio...
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Message 129 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Aug 29, 2006

Transfusions are 100%safe. As long as the RBC count is not too high then everything is fine. However EPO is a powerful hormone, and leads to imbalanced RBC to WBC counts. This will lead to "gloopy" blood, which results in increased blood pressure. Over time this should lead to cardiac problems, renal problems, liver problems and essentially a 35yo with the heart of a 55yo. Combined with the use of ohter hormones, as has been stated with Hamilton, and I imagine your body getting seriously bent outta shape. Hormones have masisve effects on intestinal balance, nutrient uptake, efficiency of the nervous system. I just cant imagine riders are told of all the possible effects before they use these things.
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Message 130 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 29, 2006

Stick to the science if you wanna make your case...
Quoted from this message





C'mon Smarauder.. we've shown you our science (well, Alan has, amongst others...) - now you show us yours!

Oh, sorry, I forgot... it's "something doesn't add up" isn't it? Be interesting to hear what your science grades at school were, if that was the strength of your arguments...
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Message 131 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 29, 2006

Always hated science related topics in school...apart from Physics which involved some fun labs... I'm more of a creative type...no surprise there!

Hey Alan, is there any evidence of riders suffering from high rates of blood clots or lesions in their arteries?
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Message 132 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 29, 2006

I'm more of a creative type...
Quoted from this message





well, we've certainly seem more of your creative side than your scientific one, haven't we...?


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Message 133 - posted by ventoux (U4677503) , Aug 29, 2006

From a personal experience, I had to get on blood thinners once...
Quoted from this message





you mean you have real human blood????

* Reading FC not doing quite so well now, eh? see you at Christmas
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Message 134 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 29, 2006

Reading have been unlucky! They will be tough to beat at home...Honestly, I am dissapointed they didn't sign Oguchi Onyewu, the bruising 6-4, 220 lbs central defender from Standard Liege...He would really help them...I know Madjeski has money to burn so why not pursue more quality on the backline???

I talked with some Villa fans recently...They are excited about the Yank with deep pockets taking over...They think Villa are headed back to European glory...They further claim Birmingham is now 60/40 in favor of Villa...if not 65/35...Are you worried about Birmingham becoming stuck in the Championship and losing more of its fan base?





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Message 135 - posted by TheInvigilator (U4743667) , Aug 29, 2006

Sorry lads, there'll be no talk of football on these boards - we do have some standards you know.
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Message 136 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Aug 29, 2006

Who made you god???

Are the "standards" you speak of posted somewhere???

In my lowly opinion, there's nothing wrong with straying from time to time...
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Message 137 - posted by dave_bloggs (U1668566) , Aug 29, 2006

>there'll be no talk of football on these boards - we do have some standards you know.

and better stick to timetrialing as well .. we don't want any of these road racing riff raff who like football on here do we?
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Message 138 - posted by donncc (U2385565) , Aug 29, 2006

basso ullrich and landis are still the top guys with or without peds. personally only having a decent level of science knowledge, im reluctant to damn these guys without absolute proof.
for example. of the 157 guys lining up in the peloton for a wonderful 2006 tour de france. we do not know what nutrition, hydration and supplements every one of these guys was on. it would be informative if we did, but i dont hold my breath where governing bodies of sport are concerned. seb coe excepted, im deeply unimpressed. the uci and wada i basically ignore.its people who have got got themselves into jobs and gobshite away to justify their positions. dick pound ......my god, i would not have him as secretary of my village cricket side!
i like wtaching the action, and how fantastique was landis / oscar p.?
so, do we catergorise peds? for me the most ludicrous example was alain baxter the gb skier. he had a cold. took a vicks nasal spray and was deneied a an olympic bronze. that for me says it all. absoulutely barmy, and heartbraeking for baxter and the ski community.
so naspa, i await your reponse babe........!!!!
stephen , durham, england

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Message 139 - posted by TheInvigilator (U4743667) , Aug 29, 2006

It's what we call a joke smarauder - bit of light relief from all the grim bickering.
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Message 140 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Aug 30, 2006

It looks like we'll know either way soon enough. According to cyclingnews.com his hearing is due to start fairly imminently.

His lawyer says that all of the evidence is circumstantial and inadmissable (and it's not his dog of course!) but of course it is as he won't take a DNA test to prove that the blood found in Fuentes' appartment isn't his! For my money he's guilty but I've got a sneaky suspicion he of all of the riders implicated will get off. Wouldn't be good for him if he did as there'll always be the 'did he didn't he?' specualtion and he'll crow on about the lost opportunity to do the double.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 141 - posted by cyclingdoctor (U5107195) , Aug 30, 2006

"Transfusions are 100%safe. As long as the RBC count is not too high then everything is fine. However EPO is a powerful hormone, and leads to imbalanced RBC to WBC counts. This will lead to "gloopy" blood, which results in increased blood pressure. Over time this should lead to cardiac problems, renal problems, liver problems and essentially a 35yo with the heart of a 55yo. Combined with the use of ohter hormones, as has been stated with Hamilton, and I imagine your body getting seriously bent outta shape. Hormones have masisve effects on intestinal balance, nutrient uptake, efficiency of the nervous system. I just cant imagine riders are told of all the possible effects before they use these things."

alanmcn1:

Can I ask where you got your "facts" for the above post? Total and utter rubbish.
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Message 142 - posted by Nuvolari1 (U1731570) , Aug 30, 2006

Transfusion is safe is just a misconception. Yes epo has many side effects and the most prominent is high blood pressure, but transfusion is not safe, even if it is your own blood. Besides, I still have to figure out what benefit would come from hemoglobin count of >50%. Yes you have more oxygen carrying capacity, but the increased blood viscosity is enough to counter that. Then when we start talking about Mr. 60% it is plain dangerous. Hemoglobin this high can cause strokes and heart attacks, and random clotting.
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Message 143 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , 2 Weeks Ago

Well, well, well.

According to a few stories floating around on the web (inc. the Beeb), Basso is about to be cleared of the doping charges due to a complete lack of evidence.


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Message 144 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , 2 Weeks Ago

Well this is CONI who are obviously not going to shoot the golden boy of Italian cycling. This is why National Feds should not be let anywhere near disciplining dopers.

Another total and utter whitewash.

This is no more of a surprise than Landis failing a test after stage 17.
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Message 145 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , 2 Weeks Ago

Is this for real? If the only evidence against him is his name cropping up during a tapped conversation then how on earth has this managed to drag on for so long.
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Message 146 - posted by llewelyn85 (U3045268) , 2 Weeks Ago

CAS will have something to say about it im sure.
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Message 147 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , 2 Weeks Ago

Why if that was the only connection have they been trying to get a DNA sample from him? Why have CONI not demanded a DNA sample to match against the blood found at Fuentes's?

Even McQuaid seems amazed about this.


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Message 148 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , 2 Weeks Ago

McQuaid wouldn't waste his time going to CAS unless he had a strong case so for him to be implying that the UCI will take action if the Italian's don't suggests to me Basso is no where near out of the woods yet.

Either the phone tap is damning evidence or thats not all there is.
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Message 149 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , 2 Weeks Ago

It is amazing! They say they've 'only' got phone tap evidence! Strangely thought this phone tap evidence (from what I heard a while back) involved a doctor who we now know is responsible for running a Europe-wide doping business involving 60 cyclists and a load of other sports men! What more do they want? Pictures?!

Seems like a massive fudge to me!

The Swiss seem to be taking it seriously at least in terms of Ullrich trying to get all the documents together to build a decent case.

They should just tell them ' look we've got bags of blood and we think they're yours because of x, y and z if you're not willing to categorically refute this evidence by submitting a DNA sample then we can only assume your guilty and we're banning you'.

Not likely to happen though sadly.
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Message 150 - posted by Biggear (U1953341) , 2 Weeks Ago

I'm confused ! - I'd heard that there was alleged evidence of Basso's doping programme, that they could trace about 30,000 euros worth of products that Basso purchased and that they had phonetaps (similar to Ullrich really !) but how come Basso could be cleared but Ullrich will be Banned ! - I read a quote from McQuaid saying that despite Jan allegedly talking to Milram (now denied), Astana and Discovery that he won't be riding again - I just think that the UCI are "picking and choosing" who they intvestigate. As a matter of interest what does everyone think would have happened if LA had been implicated in O.P. ? I suspect he would have had an Army of Lawyers on the case and Pat Mcquaid or anyone else for that matter would be running for cover !
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Message 151 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , 2 Weeks Ago

The 'facts' at the moment are the Italian federation have seen the evidence and look as if they are going to conclude that there is no evidence.

Basso's name was mentioned in a phone conversation. I'll write that again. His name was mentioned in a phone conversation.

Also, McQuaid is reported as saying the UCI was not currently in a position to say how strong the evidence was against Basso in terms of taking action if the Italians drop the case. The management at CSC have also said they haven't seen the evidence against Basso yet - hence they have not fired him. WTF is going on?

How can you suspend someone from any job on these grounds?

I'd guess that might be part of the reason why the footballers and other athletes linked to the case have not been named.

By publicizing (the eve of the TDF - whose idea was that?????????) and giving credit to half baked accusations, cycling is doing itself serious damage.





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Message 152 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , 2 Weeks Ago

You're right - his name was mentioned in a phone conversation involving Eufemiano Fuentes - doping doctor. And the context transcribed was he'd treated the guy who was currently leading the Giro. Bit of a coincidence. Yes it's circumstantial but what credibility can cycling have if it lets riders carry on riding with huge 'did he didn't he?' question marks hanging over their heads?

It's easy really in my opinion. He can completely exonerate himself by taking a DNA test. Why shouldn't he be willing to cooperate? If he's innocent then come out and prove it unequivocally.
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Message 153 - posted by sradhakr (U2393201) , 2 Weeks Ago

Esteban, frankly, if the only reference to Basso doping is a phone call, I would throw the case out (if I was ever a judge!). A convicted doctor can bring out any number of names to make him look prestigious to be associated with top atheletes. If Basso is totally innocent, still Dr F. can make that statement, right. So there is no basis.

It will be a different matter if they associate Basso's blood at the Dr's home!

-Shankar
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Message 154 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , 2 Weeks Ago

Shankar, in the normal run of things I'd be inclined to agree and yes what I've said is probably extreme in that you'd be banning someone on circumstantial evidence. Not a sound basis. However, Basso has had the opportunity for some months now to come out and say 'I'm innocent and I'll prove it with a DNA test' he hasn't done that. Now that in itself doesn't make him guilty but his lawyer seems rather insistent that he won't be taking any DNA test.

I appreciate fully that it's not a great basis on which to convict but cycling seems to be at a bit of a cross roads for me in how it deals with the dopers and how the sport is going to progress going forward. Sanctions need to be tougher and in this situation (in my opinion) the absence of a positive test shouldn't be conclusive proof that he wasn't doping when there's potentially good evidence out there that he actually was!


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Message 155 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , 2 Weeks Ago

Now, if I were Basso, I wouldn't agree to a DNA test unless there was some compelling evidence linking me to doping.

I think it's been mentioned in this thread before, but it's innocent until proven guilty in Western Europe.

And based on the evidence that has emerged so far, it looks like not guilty to me.


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Message 156 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , 2 Weeks Ago

indeed the dope is rampant in the peleton. but basso should not need to prove his innocence. if the puerto evidence is compelling, and beyond circumstance then he should be tried and guilt should be assessed based on the evidence as is standard in a court of law.

otherwise, i cannot disagree with the ever-unpopular lance armstrong when he cries "witch-hunt" because it certainly is not due process.

i hope for cycling basso was sent home because of more than a he said she said phone call. I hope hard. if the phone call scenario is true, i would offer another scenario:

in may i am sure cervelo was sellin bikes like hotcakes saying "the leader of the giro is on our stuff." perhaps a scum-bag dope doc said the same thing to sell his "stuff" too.

based on the evidence, basso was on a cervelo. but the dope? i need more. Again, i hope they have more or we/probiking have even more problems.




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Message 157 - posted by sabcarrera (U4768395) , 2 Weeks Ago

Message posted by Nuvolari1
<<Besides, I still have to figure out what benefit would come from hemoglobin count of >50%. Yes you have more oxygen carrying capacity, but the increased blood viscosity is enough to counter that. Then when we start talking about Mr. 60% it is plain dangerous.>>

Yes all this talk using hyperbole is misleading. As I understand it cycling leads to a fall in your heamatocrit and one way of raising it again is maybe by taking EPO. Is this drug dangerous if I limit it to raising my heamatocrit level to below 50%?
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Message 158 - posted by sradhakr (U2393201) , 2 Weeks Ago

Esteban, I think Basso sitting out 2 GT's by itself is a fair punishment in the absence of concrete data (so far). I too think, like the whole board and other cycling fans, he had cheated like Jan and others.

If Basso is acquitted in a court of law, would he be innocent going forward irrespective of past? We have seen that convicted dopers are juicing again even after punishment. The trust is gone. He now has a bad tag, like Armstrong, only much worse.

Cycling is in a terrible transition phase where there are no Micheal Jordon or Maradonna for now to pull the ratings up. Old stars gone and the current stars are tainted. So we are looking at 3rd-tier people on the races (likes of Periero and Landis shining). But really it doesnt matter. As someone here said, what difference it makes whether avg speed is 45 kmph (juiced) or 41 (mineral water)? ... only that you cannot be anyone's fan
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Message 159 - posted by llewelyn85 (U3045268) , 2 Weeks Ago

Read on another site, Basso won't be recieving another contract from CSC. Good signs from Bjarne Riis.
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Message 160 - posted by berck (U4435882) , 2 Weeks Ago

<<As I understand it cycling leads to a fall in your heamatocrit >>

Where did you get this information? Hematocrit falls tend to be related to improper dietary issues (anemia for one).
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 161 - posted by Besonders (U3969514) , 2 Weeks Ago

Old stars gone and the current stars are tainted. So we are looking at 3rd-tier people on the races (likes of Periero and Landis shining).
Quoted from this message



Where are the 1st and 2nd tier riders then?

Call me pedantic (ah, go on), but if they've been banned because of PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs, then they weren't really 1st/2nd tier athletes!

And yeah, people were too quick to judge Basso, imo.
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Message 162 - posted by Bartali (U5258972) , 2 Weeks Ago

I think many people have been too quick to judge Basso. I hate to say "I told you so", but that was what I said when I started this thread.

"Whether or not Basso is guilty in practice, I find it hard to believe that the authorities will be able to present a sufficiently water tight case in the absence of a ‘smoking gun'.

So ... if Basso is cleared (and it is still an 'if') would anyonebet against a Giro / TdF double next year?
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Message 163 - posted by sabcarrera (U4768395) , 2 Weeks Ago

Message posted by berck
<<<<As I understand it cycling leads to a fall in your heamatocrit >>

Where did you get this information? Hematocrit falls tend to be related to improper dietary issues (anemia for one).>>

It's an effect commonly seen in endurance athletes because of an increase in the volume of the plasma.
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Message 164 - posted by BianchiGirl (U1728348) , 2 Weeks Ago

the German sports press are reporting that, following raids by the Italian police on various locations, public prosecutors have opened investigations into Luca Paolini and Elisa Basso - Ivan's sister....

CONI might be wise to wait a little longer before shelving Basso's case - seems there just might be enough evidence after all....
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Message 165 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , 2 Weeks Ago

Elisa Basso, girlfriend of T-mobile rider Eddy Mazzoleni???????
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Message 166 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , 2 Weeks Ago

Thought these raids were last week and they found nothing?

Basso's hearing is this week so we'll know soon enough.
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Message 167 - posted by sabcarrera (U4768395) , 2 Weeks Ago

Wasn't it Eddy Mazzoleni's setter that mated with Elisa Basso's terrier?

I hope that UCI and WADA are gathering all the useful evidence that is appearing on this notice board. It's the kind that Dick Pound would use.

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Message 168 - posted by llewelyn85 (U3045268) , 2 Weeks Ago

Mazzoleni's leaving t-mobile next year (source www.team-t-mobile.de).

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Message 169 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , 2 Weeks Ago

The Italian investigators have stressed that Basso has nothing to do with that case.

The only cyclist suspected as being involved is Paolini - the same one who won a stage at the Vuelta and the rode World's recently I believe.


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Message 170 - posted by Biggear (U1953341) , 2 Weeks Ago

I guess that depends on whether Big Jan is allowed a new licence next year ! - (see cyclingnews.com)
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Message 171 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , Last Week

No resolution yet to the Basso case. His hearing was adjourned once again on Friday. I guess because of pressure from the UCI.

It's ridiculous really. The UCI considered that there was enough evidence to exclude himself and various other riders from the TDF in July. Yet, here we are in October and the authorities still can not say one way or the other.

The Italian authorities seem to think there is not enough evidence to do anything, the Swiss have not started with Ullrich because they've yet to receive any evidence and Mancebo's manager recently said he may well be back riding for his team next year because no action has been instigated against him.

Here's the link for Op Puerto on Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Admittedly not the best source, but if anyone can contradict the info I'd be interested to hear.

Here's a simple equation

Op Puerto + UCI/Cycling = A complete joke.

The reason other are keeping a lid on things would seem to be there is even less evidence here than the BBC's sting on football's bung culture.

Rant over.
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Message 172 - posted by shimouma (U5498675) , Last Week

Well the Columbians have cleared Botero to ride again due to (surprise, surprise) a lack of evidence.

This investigation becomes more of a shambles as each day goes by.


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Message 173 - posted by Esteban5676 (U5052133) , Last Week

I'd read that too.

I appreciate some of the stuff I've said in this thread might not have been exactly ideal but I don't think it's great having guys riding who have suspicion hanging over them - it only lets the doubts as to the authenticity of their victories linger on which isn't good for the sport if it's to be taken seriously as clean.

There's talk of the doping laws being changed. It sounds like (and I'm reading between the lines here) that there are suspicions that Basso blood doped using his own blood (is that Homologous?). How is this detected normally beyond the 50% haematocrit limit? I would imagine it would be near enough impossible to do. Is it time that the riders were asked to prove that, in certain circumstances (like a load of bags of blood being found in an apartment in Madrid), that the blood found isn't there's? This isn't ground breaking stuff legally. In the UK if you're in a place where a crime was committed and can't/won't account for it inferences can be drawn from that 'silence' when you're tried. Is it time to try such a thing with cycling?

Perhaps I am quick to judge Basso but it seems that his mind blowing performance included not one weak day in what was described as the toughest Giro in years. The riders/athletes etc hide behind legal technicalities which leaves the whole thing shrouded in mystery and doubt. Perhaps the only way to get round it is to ask them, in certain circumstances, to contibute to their own innocence which they're usually so keen to assert.
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Message 174 - posted by slapshot_3 (U1685569) , Last Week

I don't think anyone has "judged" Basso and other too quickly or harshly. I also suspect the phrase no smoke without fire is very apt.

Look at it this way if you are innocent of a crime you would do anything to prove that innocence. If i were him or Jan or any of the other my first stop would be a DNA test, it's about as categoric as science can be to prove that blood belongs to you, yet they have baulked at every chance

Sorry, I think both Jan and Ivan are guilty
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Message 175 - posted by sabcarrera (U4768395) , Last Week

The cloud of suspicion has been created by UCi and the Tour organisers. In common law, no-one has to prove themselves innocent, no-one is guilty without evidence.
In this case the people under investigation aren't Basso and others.
UCI is interfering in the Italian inquiry where it has no right.
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Message 176 - posted by cyclingdoctor (U5107195) , Last Week

"...if you are innocent of a crime you would do anything to prove that innocence...my first stop would be a DNA test, it's about as categoric as science can be to prove that blood belongs to you, yet they have baulked at every chance..."

I see what you're getting at slapshot_3 but I'd make a couple of points (assuming they're innocent ):

1. Would you hand over your DNA to your accusers? Would you trust them enough? Would it clear your name if it didn't match or would they pursue a different angle?

2. Are these riders fighting a PR exercise or a legal battle? If they lose a legal case they will lose their careers, if they lose a PR exercise they'll probably still be welcomed back into the pro peleton with open arms! Legally, they'd be fools to hand over their DNA - little to gain and lots to lose!
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Message 177 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Last Week

Are cyclindoctor and sabcarrera actaully Jan and Ivan??????????????
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Message 178 - posted by cyclingdoctor (U5107195) , Last Week

"Are cyclindoctor and sabcarrera actaully Jan and Ivan??????????????"

I'm probably fat enough to be Jan.....!
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Message 179 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Last Week

I wonder if any of the growing list of acquitted riders are considering sueing for compensation? It appears to be more and more apparent that there really is insufficient evidence from operation puerto. Imagine if the police arrested someone and remanded them on similar evidence, I'm sure a compensation claim would be forthcoming so, why not the riders suspended as a result of this so called operation? I'm sure Armstrong would have gone down that route had he been involved in this.
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Message 180 - posted by alanmcn1 (U2948131) , Last Week

when you get arrested by the cops, you dont even get a sorry or thanks for your co-operation if they have to let you go!!!!!!!!!
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naspa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message 181 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Last Week

I know(personally) of at least one person that subsequently received compensation following a period on remand, not to mention to high profile cases where prisoners have been wrongly convicted.

Suspending a professional sports person is a serious matter, a career only lasts for a limited period of time. If you are going to take several months or longer away from someones career then the evidence should be pretty compelling. This doesn't seem to be the case with Op Puerto and it will serve the UCI and Tour Organisers right if these riders sue the arses off them!
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Message 182 - posted by claytonseymour (U3927055) , Last Week

Re: Op Puerto

Perhaps we are beginning to see why other sports didn't name the individuals involved? Given the extremely sensitive nature of doping in cycling perhaps the UCI and Tour organisers panicked and jumped the gun so to speak.
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Message 183 - posted by bridgework (U1652282) , Last Week

agreed.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guihuomao

Fuck right off you twat.....is that simple enough for you pea brain
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

last km wrote:
guihuomao

Fuck right off you twat.....is that simple enough for you pea brain


It seems the Twat has plenty of places to Fuck Off to, including Pregnancy. !!!


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