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shimouma



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: More Doping News!  Reply with quote

Quote:
CyclingNews

Proof of systematic doping at Mapei?

Documents have surfaced in Italy which offer proof of systematic doping by the defunct Italian Team Mapei, according to German television station ARD. During the 2001 season riders where systematically taking drugs such as EPO, testosterone, anabolic steroids, and also most likely synthetic insulin, the documents allegedly reveal.

No riders were named in the documents, according to the reports. Many riders taking part in this year's Tour de France were members of the 2001 Mapei team, including the current bearer of the yellow jersey and Time Trial World Champion Fabian Cancellara (Team CSC) and Italian world champion Paolo Bettini (Quickstep-Innergetic).

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crash48



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No surprise there.

A certain quickstep boss was there as well.
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bianchigirl



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quelle surprise - that really falls into the category of tel us something we don't know. Rominger was on Mapei and he now manages Alexandre Vinokourov. So many tangled webs...

still loved those jerseys, though...
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Ralphnorman



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hated those jerseys....wasn't Mick Rodgers there as well? and Museew? a lot of good classics riders could go down......
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bianchigirl wrote:
quelle surprise - that really falls into the category of tel us something we don't know. Rominger was on Mapei and he now manages Alexandre Vinokourov. So many tangled webs...

still loved those jerseys, though...


I believe Voet. I also believe things haven't changed one bit since his book was written. In fact, I think they've gotten worse. He, like Jaksche, believes that the playing field is equal. He also states clearly in his book that the riders believe the playing field is equal since everybody dopes. The more I read, and the more news like this that comes out, the more evidence there is for this view. I don't really think it's seriously debatable any more.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you were the great believer in scientific evidence. Have there been any medical studies that show that it has produced a level playing field? Jaksche is a cyclist not a scientist.

Aren't you being a bit selective here? It seems that you are cherry picking the evidence when it suits you.
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70kmph



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes

Last edited by 70kmph on Thu May 27, 2010 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ralphnorman



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DUCKIE!!!!!!!!!
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kathy



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: ARD Reply with quote

ARD have invited Jackshe to appear on TV to explain his disclosures about doping. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me, seeing as ARD were threatening to stop showing cycling because of doping scandals. Surprised
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naspa



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kathy - did you see CN today? There was a piece on it.

Jaksche visits the Tour


Just over a week after stunning the cycling world with doping revelations, Jörg Jaksche was invited to the Tour de France stage finish in Gent by the German public TV channel ARD to talk about his experiences. The rider, who set the entire peloton on the defensive after admitting to using banned substances and blood doping, was a surprising choice after commentators Marcel Wüst and Jens Heppner were dismissed by German television, who did not want to use the former professionals because of doping confessions of their former peers Erik Zabel and Rolf Aldag.

The selection of Jaksche was intended to show that the media outlet is taking the fight against doping seriously after the station was criticised for lack of doping coverage, but it has instead confused many viewers. The station was inundated with calls during the prologue from viewers wishing to hear about the race itself rather than doping.

Jaksche headed unashamedly onto Walter Godefroot's home turf after levelling serious charges that the former T-Mobile directeur sportif was involved in systematic doping - something Godefroot vigorously denied. Jaksche told Sueddeutsche Zeitung that he wasn't afraid of any legal action that might be filed against him, saying, "Why would he sue me? He knows I am right." Jaksche revealed that he will meet with the UCI and WADA soon and will also have an appointment with the prosecutors in his hometown of Ansbach in late July.

Jaksche has been accused of coming out with the revelations only because he was paid well by the magazine who published it - a charge he denies. "I only got reimbursed [for] expenses in the low five-figure numbers."

Jaksche said he felt welcomed at the Tour, especially by the younger riders, who thought it was great that he talked. "The older ones may have been a little more reserved, but I don't feel chased."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul10news3
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bridgework



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaske cashing in on his new job as a professional former doper?
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
I thought you were the great believer in scientific evidence. Have there been any medical studies that show that it has produced a level playing field? Jaksche is a cyclist not a scientist.

Aren't you being a bit selective here? It seems that you are cherry picking the evidence when it suits you.


Absolutely being selective. But you'd have to agree that "science" isn't going to give us any answers about how extensive the amount of doping in the peloton is, and it isn't going to be studying the riders who are doping, at least in real time, any time soon. So what are we left with? Belief. I didn't say this was a scientific belief. But I believe Voet. He seems sincere as an historian.

Voet stated that the riders all believe it's a level playing field since everybody dopes. Jaksche said it. They're all willing to play by their own unwritten rules regarding doping. So, if the riders think it's a level playing field, right or wrong, scientific or not, then they have an agreement of fairness, and we shouldn't second-guess them about "fairness". The criticisms that there isn't a level playing field, if that is scientifically correct (it isn't, at least not yet), doesn't really matter if the riders have an agreement. So when some fans get upset about there not being a level playing field because of doping, I have to ask "Why?". Who cares?
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bianchigirl



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc, I've never disputed that they're all at it - in fact, I remember a time when I espoused this view and you were telling me that Armstrong did it all on hard work and lettuce leaves, but we'll let that pass....

I don't believe that doping makes for a level playing field for a second - you will perhaps recall Voet's story about the time Virenque went to visit Ferrari. Said he was incredible, but he simply wouldn't be able to afford his services (let alone the fact that, as Voet puts it, working with Ferrari is like 'walking around with a saucepan shoved up your arse' i.e. it's simply far too obvious what you're up to). So, you have great dope doctors that even a well paid rider like Virenque can't afford. Where's the egalitarianism in that?

And don't even get me started on the point that huwb so ably illustrates when he talks about his niece and her extraordinary, natural talent.
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bianchigirl wrote:
Doc, I've never disputed that they're all at it - in fact, I remember a time when I espoused this view and you were telling me that Armstrong did it all on hard work and lettuce leaves, but we'll let that pass....

I don't believe that doping makes for a level playing field for a second - you will perhaps recall Voet's story about the time Virenque went to visit Ferrari. Said he was incredible, but he simply wouldn't be able to afford his services (let alone the fact that, as Voet puts it, working with Ferrari is like 'walking around with a saucepan shoved up your arse' i.e. it's simply far too obvious what you're up to). So, you have great dope doctors that even a well paid rider like Virenque can't afford. Where's the egalitarianism in that?

And don't even get me started on the point that huwb so ably illustrates when he talks about his niece and her extraordinary, natural talent.


I think Armstrong was a better rider than the other dopers, that's all.

You're right about some doctors costing more than others back then. But I think that playing field has also evened out in the past 15 years. I think Virenque could afford it, and did pay for it. Today, if a rider wants the drugs bad enough, they can and will get them. I think all the teams are complicit, so I believe the teams make the decisions as to which doctor they should hire. The better riders, who have a chance at winning, likely get the greater share of the team doping budget. It was that way in Voet's book, 10 years ago.

The "natural talent" in a child doesn't apply to any of my arguments. I'm simply talking about adults and the freedom they should have to ingest whatever they want.

Believe me when I say I'd rather see a clean sport, because I would. But since that will never happen, and actually cannot happen (judging by 1000 years or more of history), I'm looking for a cheap and simple way for cycling to end its bad image and keep the best riders riding. Legalizing PEDs seems to be a fair solution (for adults, let's say 24 years and older). It eliminates the costs of testing and running a cycling WADA, and it eliminates the criminalization of athletes in pro cycling. It enables the savings to be directed toward our youth and the problem of drugs, especially life-threatening drugs, in our youth population. Children are not allowed to smoke or drink alcohol currently, and this would be extended to PEDs in such a world. You've heard all of this before.

My point was that if the riders see it as a level playing field, then it's as level as it could possibly get, at least without the science naspa and I would like to see. That science will never be performed unless we legalize PEDs in sport, that's for sure.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So really what it's all about is legitimising Armstrong?
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ullrichfan



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


I think Armstrong was a better rider than the other dopers, that's all.

You're right about some doctors costing more than others back then. But I think that playing field has also evened out in the past 15 years. I think Virenque could afford it, and did pay for it. Today, if a rider wants the drugs bad enough, they can and will get them. I think all the teams are complicit, so I believe the teams make the decisions as to which doctor they should hire. The better riders, who have a chance at winning, likely get the greater share of the team doping budget. It was that way in Voet's book, 10 years ago.

The "natural talent" in a child doesn't apply to any of my arguments. I'm simply talking about adults and the freedom they should have to ingest whatever they want.

Believe me when I say I'd rather see a clean sport, because I would. But since that will never happen, and actually cannot happen (judging by 1000 years or more of history), I'm looking for a cheap and simple way for cycling to end its bad image and keep the best riders riding. Legalizing PEDs seems to be a fair solution (for adults, let's say 24 years and older). It eliminates the costs of testing and running a cycling WADA, and it eliminates the criminalization of athletes in pro cycling. It enables the savings to be directed toward our youth and the problem of drugs, especially life-threatening drugs, in our youth population. Children are not allowed to smoke or drink alcohol currently, and this would be extended to PEDs in such a world. You've heard all of this before.

My point was that if the riders see it as a level playing field, then it's as level as it could possibly get, at least without the science naspa and I would like to see. That science will never be performed unless we legalize PEDs in sport, that's for sure.


You're using Willy Voet's book as an example. However, this is the same book in which Voet discusses Festina's use of IGF1. Apparently it did nothing for some riders but seemed to help others. This is exactly the point I think those of us who are arguing against your "level playing field" point are trying to make. Namely that different riders respond differently to different drugs: everyone's chemistry is (wait for it...) different.

Not every rider is on the same programme of drugs as they feel some work better than others, so how can it be a level playing field?

The opposite of your argument is actually true: it can only be a level playing field if no-one is on drugs.

Admittedly, this would be difficult to achieve but by keeping doping to a minimum, I think this is closer to a level playing field than allowing a free-for-all as you propose.
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CapeRoadie



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
So really what it's all about is legitimising Armstrong?


Is that what bg told you? Nah, I was just responding to her first point. It's about legitimizing any rider who wins. It seems like we all scream "doper" when it's a rider we don't like, but leave the riders we do like alone. How else do you explain a Virenque? The French love him still! Forgiven. Absolutely one of the worst liars ever. Then caught, and pathetic in his apology. He kept it from his family, so I understand the reasons for his breakdown. Then he was allowed to race le Tour the very next year after Festina because of a technicality.

And we love to hate Armstrong, when he's simply doing what Virenque (and every other rider) would have continued to do had he not been caught. So, there's a hypocritical view among the French toward Armstrong and among Americans toward Virenque. Silly, really. Both great riders.
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naspa



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really, Virenque is still a cunt.

And isn't this becoming a very Armstrong-esque - it's all anti-Americanism type argument?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ullrichfan wrote:
You're using Willy Voet's book as an example. However, this is the same book in which Voet discusses Festina's use of IGF1. Apparently it did nothing for some riders but seemed to help others. This is exactly the point I think those of us who are arguing against your "level playing field" point are trying to make. Namely that different riders respond differently to different drugs: everyone's chemistry is (wait for it...) different.


That point is not lost on me, but you can also say that every rider will respond differently to different training methods, different foods, different trainers, different massage therapists/soigneurs, different amounts of sleep, different off-season training programmes, etc. The point is that they have a CHOICE to do whichever diets, training regimens, foods, etc., that they prefer. They also have a choice to sample whatever PEDs they prefer.

So that argument doesn't make sense to me, since they all have equal access to the drugs these days.

ullrichfan wrote:
Not every rider is on the same programme of drugs as they feel some work better than others, so how can it be a level playing field?


They have the CHOICE to be on whatever pprogramme of drugs they desire.

ullrichfan wrote:
The opposite of your argument is actually true: it can only be a level playing field if no-one is on drugs.


And only if they eat the same food, have the same trainers and training programmes, off-season strength & conditioning plans, diets, etc... and why stop there? Make sure they are genetic clones as well to truly level the playing field.

You see where that argument goes. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, because you'd have to apply your rationale to every aspect of training to make a "level playing field" in your scenario--not just PEDs. The equality is becuase of the ACCESS TO, the EQUAL AVAILABILITY OF these methods, of which the use of PEDs is simply another one in a long list of methods.

ullrichfan wrote:
Admittedly, this would be difficult to achieve but by keeping doping to a minimum, I think this is closer to a level playing field than allowing a free-for-all as you propose.


No, it is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. It's been tried for too many years to believe otherwise. We need a new approach. If we do it your way, we will be able to achieve only what we have already achieved: zero.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naspa wrote:
...And isn't this becoming a very Armstrong-esque - it's all anti-Americanism type argument?


Why? I support all the riders. I like them all. They're in an impossible situation regarding drugs. If they do not do them, they cannot win. If they cannot win (or support the winner), they cannot get a contract with a pro tour team. It's Catch-22. The only way off the viscious circle is to take PEDs off the banned list, or make a doping program that actually works. The latter's been tried already without success, the former has yet to be tried. I say try something different. If it doesn't work, then we're no further behind than we are now.


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